• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:21
CEST 03:21
KST 10:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview9[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy13
Community News
LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments2Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?39Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris48Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!15
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw? Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away Speculation of future Wardii series
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies
Brood War
General
Pros React To: herO's Baffling Game ASL20 General Discussion BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BSL Polish World Championship 2025 20-21 September
Tourneys
Is there English video for group selection for ASL Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro24 Group F
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
How Culture and Conflict Imp…
TrAiDoS
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1191 users

You're doing it wrong, Zerg.

Blogs > furerkip
Post a Reply
furerkip
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States439 Posts
August 12 2013 05:22 GMT
#1
Does anyone else find that with the new metagame, there is an onus on both sides to kill the enemy as opposed to in late-WoL where the onus was entirely on the Terran to kill the Zerg (else he'd achieve the ultimate army of BLord/Infestor and victory would be nigh unattainable)?

In WoL, Terran had to constantly drop, attack, kill hatcheries, kill tech from Zerg, all while trying to get new bases, defend from muta harass, etc. Whereas now in HoTS, Zerg can't just win a bunch of battles or sit back in there base. Think real far back to game 4 of Bly vs. Flash in the first MLG HoTS tourney, Bly wins every engagement but is killed by Flash's economic harass. Also, the entire Leenock vs. Innovation series there; Leenock is defending extremely well, but gets barrel stomped by Innovation because he never attacks the Terran; he's just winning engagements.

This sort of brings a new light to this game for Zerg that I feel only the high level Terrans have seen and incorporate into their play (Polt, Innovation, Flash, Maru, Bomber, and Mvp way back when): just like in chess, you can't only think of the game in terms of pure material advantages, but also in terms of what the advantages mean. For example, I can sacrifice a queen to you, but in exchange I could be dishing you a checkmate (because the queen's death could be in some random corner of the board far away from where the piece in question should be that could've saved the King if it were in its original place). In the same way, Zerg can no longer sit back and auto win because they teched to Broodlords and a-move from there; with the improved mobility of Terran army compositions (mines are significantly faster than tanks to be placed), Terran army compositions, with improved control, seem almost like a ranged version of ling/bling; the sheer number that can be produced by Terran can actually begin to rival Zerg's with even perfect injections. The game, with such even tools for both sides, no longer resembles a gambler [Terran] vs. a casino [Zerg], but, combined with the fast paced action, is almost directly relatable to lightning speed chess.

In the same likeness as lightning speed chess, losing material is insignificant; the only important thing one should remember is that a sacrifice is meant to lead to a greater advantage that normally would not be available had the sacrifice not happened. With this in mind, we find Terrans who lose every engagement, but aim to kill hatcheries instead winning, and those Terrans with fierce battle mechanics, akin to Polt and Innovation, demolishing Zerg's who would dare to set the game up on the teetering saw of battle.

The Zerg meta-style, since the beginning of SC2, has been to sit back and barely defend and defend until you have the perfect army against Terran or the perfect economy against Protoss and win. In HoTS, with the advent of all these new tools for Terran, Zerg's style has to change; perfect defense cannot work against someone with the same, but stronger tools you have. How did Terran win TvZ in WoL? Aggressive maneuvers that pulled the Zerg out of position for another attack. TvZ then was entirely based on Terran gambits and furthered by stronger and stronger gambits.

Now TvZ is an entirely different beast, and from here on out it is purely my opinion on the way TvZ should be done from the Zerg's side.

1) Mutalisks should be ousted from the matchup.
2) Infestors must be brought back into the matchup.
3) Vipers should be implemented as much as possible.
4) Drop defense should be done purely with static defense.
5) The Zerg should defend no more than 5 bases at a time with static defense, with 4 of them being mining bases and the fifth being the main base where the tech should be.
6) Drop defense should be rated in this priority:
-Base where the tech structures are held
-Newest Mining bases
-Oldest Mining bases

Let me explain each of my points besides p. 6.

1) Mutalisks should actually be gotten rid of. We can see with boosters, Mutalisks fail to catch up with medivacs; not only that, attacking a Terran's mining base is almost always a terrible decision with the lack of dps and ability to only kill workers efficiently. To make it obvious to anyone that doesn't get it, mutalisks suck in terms of killing buildings; not only that, killing buildings sucks for the Zerg to do anyways because of the multiple amounts of production facilities the Terran has to produce on the same scale as the Zerg. Also, they are now terrible vs. MMMM because they just can't kill medivacs anymore with This seriously means that Mutalisks have only one purpose in TvZ and that is to kill workers. The reason this can actually be considered a minor objective is that Terran production is just so low cost that Zerg has no reason to actually killl workers; in fact, it's actually better if the Terran can just build more workers because it takes away from his army supply, rather than helping him free up his supply. And what is he gonna zip up his supply with? Marines, which counter Mutalisks. It makes no sense for you to help your opponent kill you better.

2) Infestors may not be as strong as they once were, but the best part about them is their ability to counter maneuverability with Fungal Growth. This is extremely helpful when fending off MMMM because the Terran is now forced into mixing in marauders with his army. What's the best part about Marauders? They don't shoot up, and they suck vs. zerglings. They only thing they are good at in TvZ is tanking shots from blings. Also, another great thing about Terran's getting marauders is that they are spending a larger amount of gas than they originally were, so their tech or their widow mine production has to be slowed down. Either scenario is good for Zerg.

The best thing to think about is Infestors they are equally useful in small numbers as they are in large numbers for TvZ. 4-5 Infestors cause as much damage as 8-10 because all engagements only last for 15 seconds at most in TvZ. This means that the damage that is output is used in those 15 seconds cannot be one for one only, but has to be splash. The longer the engagement lasts, the better Zerg's chances are in it (once the widow mine shots are done, the only thing left is marines and marauders, and the more they split, the stronger and stronger zerglings become because the surface area for each ball has decreased and each ball is at a range where all the zerglings are not able to be targeted at once). Anyways, because of that, Infestors will help blings land more often as well as FF from widow mines.

3) Vipers actually have great syngery with Infestors; if you're going to follow point 2, you should naturally accept that Vipers will devastate the Terran's attack power while also making it even more likely of an FF shot from a widow mine.

4) This one I honestly believe; drop defense with an army sucks. The point of the army is to engage, not be stuck back at home defending. The idea of your army's position relates to what area of the map you are exerting pressure on; if you're army is in your base, you exert pressure on no area of the map that is being contested. Defence from drops should, whenever you can, be done with static defenses. Honestly, this is how it should be: Spine crawlers in your mineral line, spores near the edges.

5) You should never really have a reason to be running more than 5 active bases, where 1 being your tech stronghold and the rest being economic purpose only. The reason for this is that you shouldn't be able to deal with multiple drops from the Terran (regardless of whether you have mutalisks or not), so why spread yourself too thin? Your aim should be to not lose from Terran's drops as well as maintaining a strong enough army to battle Terran's army so that you can push into Terran's base. There is no point at all in making one of these jobs harder for yourself just so the other can be minimally helped (a la 7 base Zerg trying to harvest larvae just so his already maxed out Zerg army which is super weak can be revived again to kill Terran).

In a game where both sides have the same tools, and one of them has an edge in the strength of the tool, the other side has to make do taking away the advantage and pushing forth their own advantages.

Zerg no longer has the unbeatable late game advantage. Now, they're advantage is the ability to stop mobility along with their own mobility. It's time to abuse that.

*
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12471 Posts
August 12 2013 06:26 GMT
#2
You are doing the order wrong.
Zerg aren't going muta because muta got buff'd and infestor got nerf'd.
It's because the power of speed boost medivac can shred you apart. Going infestor heavy mid game will kill you. A triple 3rd CC will just have constant stream of units and drops that will drain out your infestor energy (not to mention the bio split is easier)
Muta is necessary to deter the terran going too much drops, it isn't used to harass is because you need them near your base to protect against drops. It also helps to snipe off mines in the earlier engagements.

If you have ever seen/played pure bio style, you would know how amazing mixing in some mauraders are against ling infestor style. 4 marauders can more or less one shot one infestors and bait fungals with their pokes. MKP played pure bio style in WoL sometimes, you can look it up.

People knows viper infestor is amazing but the current metagame makes it hard to get to hive, thus the lair tech heavy 2-2 ling baneling muta style. the aggression starts from a fast 3rd CC makes it insanely hard to secure a early 4th.
Which is also why you can't just replace drones and build Static defense. you need a full army production once aggression starts. Building static defense is only ok if you managed to drone up to a very nice number and had a nice engagement off.

I am not sure about point 5, you have some sounding reasons but I think it's all depending on which location the base is. The bases are essentially a stronghold for that map location.
Most often drops will aim for drones, so you will always need to defend all the drops possible. If your old mining base (which is closer to your main) gets sniped, it just spread your defense even further apart because your newest mining base is furtherest apart.
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
MattD
Profile Joined March 2013
United Kingdom83 Posts
August 12 2013 07:59 GMT
#3
id like to see you defend against a double medvac 8 marauder drop with just static defense.

pro tip: you cant
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
August 12 2013 08:32 GMT
#4
1. I disagree with your opinion on mutalisks. The point of mutalisks in ZvT now is to stop drops BEFORE they even land (using good OL placement) and occasionally harass new bases/workers. Relying completely on static defense to stop drops will hamper your income seriously in the mid game (two spores/two spines are not enough to stop 2 medi drops) so you will inevitably need to split your army.

2. Infestors are still in the match up, but the changes to fungal growth, and the ability of Terran to crush large groups of lings with widow mines make infestor/ling/bling a lot more fragile than it was in WoL. A Terran that pre-splits his army around widow mines will hardly have a problem trading positively, and in cojunction with drops, can tear your apart before you can get up to Ultras. I think getting a 4-5 Infestors while your Hive is about 60% done is the best way to go, then you start stocking gas for Ultras.

3. I agree, I think we will see more Viper play, but their fragility is quite a hindrance. Plus, with gas being split between Infestors, Ultras, and banelings, figuring out exactly when you can afford them is quite tricky.

4. Again, this is largely unrealistic. Defending with purely static defense simply will not work, especially in later stages of the game. There is not enough DPS in static defense to stop the Terran from sniping your hatchery and leaving. Plus, there are many locations on maps that static defense cannot reach (i.e. dropping high ground behind mineral lines).

5. Agreed.
I love crazymoving
ktimekiller
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States690 Posts
August 12 2013 10:44 GMT
#5
I am sorry but you are 100% wrong and likely terrible at the game.

Please refrain from doing armchair theorycrafting.
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
August 12 2013 14:48 GMT
#6
I think you mean "nigh unassailable".
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
E.L.V.I.S
Profile Joined April 2011
Belgium458 Posts
August 12 2013 14:55 GMT
#7
the point about the marauders slowing down the tech from terran is very funny
http://twitch.tv/maggrig | @SC2ELVIS | http://www.facebook.com/sc2ELVIS
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
August 12 2013 21:04 GMT
#8
I hope you and your million spine-crawler defense have a happy life together.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
August 12 2013 21:12 GMT
#9
We can see with boosters, Mutalisks fail to catch up with medivacs


I was under the impression that they are more or less the same speed, meaning as soon as the booster cuts out after the short duration it runs, it's easy pickings for the mutas?
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 40m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 227
Vindicta 47
RuFF_SC2 40
PattyMac 24
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 7403
Artosis 846
Aegong 54
sSak 51
NaDa 29
Dota 2
monkeys_forever699
NeuroSwarm78
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox533
C9.Mang0328
Other Games
summit1g10319
shahzam411
WinterStarcraft365
FrodaN329
420jenkins301
ViBE176
Maynarde154
Mew2King42
Nathanias24
ROOTCatZ20
fpsfer 1
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV23
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta42
• OhrlRock 2
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach5
• iopq 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22334
Counter-Strike
• imaqtpie677
• Shiphtur159
Other Games
• Scarra977
Upcoming Events
OSC
1h 40m
MaNa vs SHIN
SKillous vs ShoWTimE
Bunny vs TBD
Cham vs TBD
RSL Revival
8h 40m
Reynor vs Astrea
Classic vs sOs
Maestros of the Game
15h 40m
Serral vs Ryung
ByuN vs Zoun
BSL Team Wars
17h 40m
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
CranKy Ducklings
1d 8h
RSL Revival
1d 8h
GuMiho vs Cham
ByuN vs TriGGeR
Cosmonarchy
1d 12h
TriGGeR vs YoungYakov
YoungYakov vs HonMonO
HonMonO vs TriGGeR
Maestros of the Game
1d 15h
Solar vs Bunny
Clem vs Rogue
[BSL 2025] Weekly
1d 16h
RSL Revival
2 days
Cure vs Bunny
Creator vs Zoun
[ Show More ]
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Maru vs Lambo
herO vs ShoWTimE
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Hawk vs Team Sziky
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025: Warsaw LAN
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
EC S1
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.