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United States4883 Posts
I've been looking at pro replays and noticing some differences in FFE's lately. Wanting to emulate them, I began to try to work on them as well.
The rough build order is as follows:
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon (in-base)
**3 chronoboosts on nexus**
**rally 15th probe to natural**
16 nexus
16 forge (in main)
16 pylon (at natural)
**scout**
18 gateway
18 cannon
18 double gas
23 core
27 zealot (optional)
29 pylon
31 warp gate
31 stargate (at natural walloff)
Initial probe scouts first base @3:30
second base @4:45
The primary difference with this build and other FFE is that you make your forge in your main and blindly make a nexus first. Why does this work? On large 4-player maps (such as Whirlwind and Red City), you're very safe in assuming that zerg will a) go hatch first and b) be unlikely to blindly 6pool as the rush distances are huge, especially cross-map. HOWEVER, in the case that our opponent DOES blindly go 6pool and scouts in the right direction, we have a contingency plan: all we need to do is build a cannon in the main mineral line and cancel the nexus and we've officially lost nothing. Piece of cake.
Now, when comparing this to a normal FFE with the forge on the low ground, we usually scout with our initial pylon probe, then make a forge on 15 and scout the other direction with the other probe. What's the outcome if our opponent 6pools? We cut probes, we build an extra pylon in the mineral line, build a cannon, and just accept that we're going to lose the forge + pylon at our natural. In this case, protoss is WAY behind and effectively screwed.
Now, for the wall-off. Because the forge is not in the wall, you generally have a gateway/core/pylon/stargate/pylon walloff. While it may seem counter-intuitive to place the stargate at the wall, the PvZ meta revolves around stargate play so 1) there's no reason to hide it and 2) you can rest assured knowing it's fairly safe. With void rays and cannons, you can hold off any kind of fast roach aggression. If your opponent goes mutalisks, the stargate is actually safer in the walloff than hiding in the back of your base. So, it makes sense. You can potentially walloff with a second gateway here and go for a fast 4-gate pressure as well. I wouldn't recommend placing a robo in the wall.
Now, obviously this build is not ideal for smaller maps like Neo Planet S or Akilon, where the rush distance is fairly short and a 9 scout followed by nexus would be easier. However, I really hate 6pools, so I'm still playing around with variants such as:
1) Placing my forge in my mineral line on 14, then going nexus, then walling off
2) Placing my first pylon and forge at my main ramp, scouting with nexus probe; if I spot an early pool, I can cancel the nexus, drop down a gateway and cannon on the ramp and be safe.
3) 9 scouting (with a pylon in main) and building a forge if I scout an early pool. This particular variant makes me super safe and super ahead of gas first speedling builds that zergs can attempt as I still have time to wall the ramp.
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Am I missing something or your spoiler-BO lost the forge?
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United States4883 Posts
On July 30 2013 01:15 Cracy wrote:
Am I missing something or your spoiler-BO lost the forge?
Thanks for the catch there. I had thought I had it in there, but I guess it got lost in all the ** notes**.
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I was hoping this would be a return of that old troll FFE guide where you are supposed to build a nexus as part of your wall in.
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Any thoughts on how/if this would hold early (but not 6-pool early) ling or ling/bane aggression, like Scarlett used against Hero in WCS?
Daily link for reference.
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United States4883 Posts
On July 30 2013 01:49 Erik.TheRed wrote:
I was hoping this would be a return of that old troll FFE guide where you are supposed to build a nexus as part of your wall in.
Ahahaha, that was such a good topic though!
On July 30 2013 02:28 ASoo wrote:Any thoughts on how/if this would hold early (but not 6-pool early) ling or ling/bane aggression, like Scarlett used against Hero in WCS? Daily link for reference.
Assuming you're able to catch a scout of it before starting your natural wall, the direct counter to early gas builds is to just wall up your main ramp like old times with gate/core/zealot. In the worst case scenario, you will have to cancel your nexus, build 2 gateways and do the good old 3-gate expand (which, BTW, transitions very nicely into gateway aggression with MsC). In the case of really early baneling aggression, it's really easy to re-wall the main ramp (1 gate) as opposed to your natural ramp, so you should be pretty safe.
On a 4-player map, it's a little harder to say. If you scout them in the first position, you should be able to hold off, no problem. If you scout them cross-map, there's also a chance you might be okay just because the rush distance is so huge. Taking into account the size of the map, the banelings might not even come until ~6:00, giving you time to complete your standard FFE wall with a sentry. If you scout them in the 3rd position, you might be pretty much boned. I'll have to check on that last one.
It's a good question and probably the best answer is: Well, it doesn't work out well, but we just hope our opponent's not going to do that because the meta says they should hatch first or die.
I might also change the probe scout to directly after the nexus instead of after the pylon, so that might change things. Most pros don't scout AT ALL with this build lol.
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FFEs vary on scouting. Bring down your first probe to make the first pylon @9 then scout bring 2nd probe down to make a forge @14ish supply I am not a protoss. Then use your probe to check expo then to check pool timing (ignore drone heading to natural) then check gas make expansion and cannons accordingly.
Refer to day9's qoute saying you have a strategy to can get there different ways but in the end you end up with those buildings.
You can Nexus first then use forge for defense very popular, Gateway first to get your tech out faster with forge defense. Either way you are getting the same stuff just different openers.
p.s. the build you showed us is FEF Fast Expand Forge. Same buildings different order in the end the same but different pros & cons.
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On July 30 2013 01:49 Erik.TheRed wrote:
I was hoping this would be a return of that old troll FFE guide where you are supposed to build a nexus as part of your wall in.
I missed this. Can someone link me please?
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United States4883 Posts
On July 30 2013 03:13 reps)squishy wrote:
FFEs vary on scouting. Bring down your first probe to make the first pylon @9 then scout bring 2nd probe down to make a forge @14ish supply I am not a protoss. Then use your probe to check expo then to check pool timing (ignore drone heading to natural) then check gas make expansion and cannons accordingly.
Refer to day9's qoute saying you have a strategy to can get there different ways but in the end you end up with those buildings.
You can Nexus first then use forge for defense very popular, Gateway first to get your tech out faster with forge defense. Either way you are getting the same stuff just different openers.
p.s. the build you showed us is FEF Fast Expand Forge. Same buildings different order in the end the same but different pros & cons.
...Hmm. Yeah, I can tell you don't play protoss. Basically, the only real difference here between a standard nexus first and this other build is that instead of placing your initial pylon and forge at the entrance to your natural, you place it behind your mineral line. It also does not scout until at least 16 supply (or in the case of most pros, not at all). So, yeah, it's almost EXACTLY the same thing as nexus first but with different timings.
I will note, however, that we recently saw MC do a gateway after nexus instead of forge and he managed to clean up a 10-pool with only 4 probe losses. I believe this was MC vs. Revival in the Semifinals of IEM Shanghai. (Found out: It's G2).
Also, about the scouting: on a 2-player map or if you scout the zerg first on a 4-player map, you have enough time to run into the main base, do a quick ring-around-the-hatchery to check for early pools/early gas, and then you move down to the natural to block the hatch from going down. Most zerg players will send down a drone prematurely, if there's no probe -> 15 hatch, if there is a probe -> 15 pool. Needless to say, if your probe prevents him from putting down the hatch, you automatically know he went 14/15 pool. 
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United States4883 Posts
On July 30 2013 08:15 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 01:49 Erik.TheRed wrote:
I was hoping this would be a return of that old troll FFE guide where you are supposed to build a nexus as part of your wall in. I missed this. Can someone link me please?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403
It was based on skytoss...an actually fairly interesting topic. The idea was to just throw down a nexus as part of the wall if the zerg player tried to hatch block; your economy wouldn't be too bad and you would be able to bank up a ton of chronoboost for void rays + MS. Most people claimed to have really high winrates with this strategy.
And, interestingly enough, the protoss to use it in professional play was Stardust...why am I not surprised hahaha.
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EPT
