EPTWhat is LoV- Blizzard don't hurt me, no more. - Page 3
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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Butterednuts
United States859 Posts
medivac drops mutalisk harass phoenix harass oracle harass cloaked banshees nydus worms warp prisms otherwise, your argument would hold up | ||
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Anfield
Yemen160 Posts
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catplanetcatplanet
3830 Posts
And not those simple party "strategy" games like risk, but a real war game. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
On July 26 2013 02:07 catplanetcatplanet wrote: If you want real strategy play a board game. And not those simple party "strategy" games like risk, but a real war game. We should all drop Starcraft and start playing Diplomacy 24/7. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On July 26 2013 05:10 mizU wrote: Lol sorry for the shit storm I caused on your blog I was just trying to play devil's advocate like how I usually do when I see an opinionated blog/post It's all good. I started playing BW campaign just now. So refreshing to send my units everywhere on the map~ | ||
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FrogsAreDogs
Canada181 Posts
Maybe at the lower leagues, the mentality of massing a deathball army and engaging with it might be similar to Moba games. But you can't just ignore the build order, greed/cheese, unit comp. decisions made by the higher level players. I think apart from Moba games having stemmed from an RTS game engine, those games and SC2 are as far apart as can be. One thing that is a bit irrelevant to this thread but I just want to get off my chest: I think in general, the foreign Sc2 casting is terrible. From WOL till now I haven't seen a single caster properly explain the actions and intricacies in a Sc2 game in as much detail and with as much excitement that I myself feels. It doesn't surprise me that threads like this pops up as the majority of viewers don't even know what they are missing out due to the overwhelming scope of boring Sc2 casting. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
Striking at the heart of the argument presented in the OP (what little of an argument that is presented, at the very least), is the fallacy of claiming that strategy = "constant action taking place in 3 locations." There is absolutely no reason why multiple fronts is a prerequisite for strategy. Consider the quintessential nature of a battle, taking place on one set battlefield, with two armies. The mere fact that there is only one location and only one set of armies for each side does not magically mean that strategy is nonexistent, as if because they are only in one battlefield the soldiers somehow stumble stupidly towards their enemies, the generals drooling without a thought in their heads. Also, it's not as if it's any one person who controls multiple battles in a MOBA game, so the "3 strategic battles" comment is silly when you realize that those are 3 separate sets of individuals in those. Yes, they can communicate, but that's an issue of teamwork, not necessarily of strategy. Plus, previous posters have already addressed the concern that Sc2 only deals with one battle in one place. And on top of that, I understand that it's easy for low level players to just throw up their hands when they lose (or win) with an army and go "zomg deathball!" but even true "deathballs" contain innumerable nuances, and this is coming from a Terran player who feels like he always has to fight an uphill battle against Zerg or Protoss "deathballs." Furthermore, mechanics IS strategy. Strategy is nothing more than the considerations, arrangements, and implementation of options against the ones present and possible by the opponent. The far more extensive mechanical complexity of SC2 means that you have far greater detail and availability of tactical options given that you control an entire army and economy, versus controlling one champion. This is particularly true when it comes to depth - I'm a fan of all eSports and I love all games, but I much prefer to watch SC2 over LoL (and I've watched a decent amount of LCS) because LoL offers little in terms of precise strategy. At most, teams can choose champion positioning, champion selections that tilt towards ganking, towards hyper carries in the late-game, etc., but they never approach the precision of a meticulously planned build or all-in tailored towards a specific opponent and map in SC2. | ||
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
On July 25 2013 19:52 plogamer wrote: I would define mechanics as macro and micro, as I already mentioned. Dota doesn't have macro. Whereas, Starcraft has plenty of micro too - dota and it's predecessors were inspired by spells in starcraft and warcraft games. And the fact that macro can be repetitive and done without much thought is exactly the reason why I argue that Starcraft should have more strategic depth. I use dota and league for constrast, because between the three, only Starcraft is called a real-time strategy game. /edit APM requirements to meet macro and micro demands would be a decent test of mechanical difficulty. What is the average APM for professional dota and league players? Not saying APM = overall skill, but rather mechanical speed. DotA does have a ton of mechanical complexities. Sure the game looks simple on paper and it looks like it's all about controlling one unit. In DotA, you have to be map aware, and learn to manage your gold, also know how to maintain creep equilibrium just so that the creeps are always going to be fighting in a spot that is safe for you and doesn't leave you exposed to attacks. The skill of controlling creep waves is pretty much akin to macro. There are many mechanical quirks that separate the pros from your average joe. You'll also have to learn to adjust your skill and item builds based on what's happening in the game. And APM isn't all that important as the game's mechanical demands are even more strategic. It's all about getting into the right mindset based on your role in the game. No disrespect to SeleCT cause I think he's a great terran player and was one of my fave SC2 players when I used to follow the game, but he was pretty bad in his stint as a DotA 2 pro. Sure APM helps a lot with playing some heroes like Invoker, Chen, Meepo, Visage, etc, but I feel like DotA just demands a different set of mechanical skills rather than just being fast. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On July 26 2013 10:01 rebdomine wrote: DotA does have a ton of mechanical complexities. Sure the game looks simple on paper and it looks like it's all about controlling one unit. In DotA, you have to be map aware, and learn to manage your gold, also know how to maintain creep equilibrium just so that the creeps are always going to be fighting in a spot that is safe for you and doesn't leave you exposed to attacks. The skill of controlling creep waves is pretty much akin to macro. There are many mechanical quirks that separate the pros from your average joe. You'll also have to learn to adjust your skill and item builds based on what's happening in the game. And APM isn't all that important as the game's mechanical demands are even more strategic. It's all about getting into the right mindset based on your role in the game. No disrespect to SeleCT cause I think he's a great terran player and was one of my fave SC2 players when I used to follow the game, but he was pretty bad in his stint as a DotA 2 pro. Sure APM helps a lot with playing some heroes like Invoker, Chen, Meepo, Visage, etc, but I feel like DotA just demands a different set of mechanical skills rather than just being fast. I'd actually put down last hitting skills as mechanics. | ||
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
On July 26 2013 10:17 Targe wrote: I'd actually put down last hitting skills as mechanics. I actually forgot how hard that was as a beginner until I saw a kid in a LAN cafe, struggling to get last hits as a safelane Phantom Asssassin. Getting 6 last hits in 5 mins, and missing all the creeps under his own tower. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On July 26 2013 10:28 rebdomine wrote: I actually forgot how hard that was as a beginner until I saw a kid in a LAN cafe, struggling to get last hits as a safelane Phantom Asssassin. Getting 6 last hits in 5 mins, and missing all the creeps under his own tower. Last hitting under tower is hard  | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
The problem here is that anybody can build a deathball and wreck face causing weaker oppenants to be able to beat higher level oppenants. The real problem here is everybody can pull off a decent deathball and proceed to 1a it into you. Where as if SC2 actually had more ahem BW cough mechanics you wouldnt have this problem because you could actually rely on superior mechanics as a win condition. IMO RTS should be 80% mechanics and 20% strategy. If you get an RTS with to much strategy than it just becomes like chess and while chess is a great game tat is definately not what makes an exciting RTS. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26221 Posts
That or I'm just a bit bored of gaming in general. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On July 26 2013 11:47 XXXSmOke wrote: The problem here is that anybody can build a deathball and wreck face causing weaker oppenants to be able to beat higher level oppenants. The real problem here is everybody can pull off a decent deathball and proceed to 1a it into you. Just no, weaker players lose most of the time. If the gap is significant then they have almost no chance. 'Anybody' can build a deathball but whether they win or not is almost always down to mechanical skill and strategy. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10823 Posts
Seriously, just watch some lategame ZvP or ZvT... These are pure Meatgrinders and stuff is happening all over the map because basically, in every MU there was one race that just had the head on (WAY) stronger army ("the Deathball"). People bring up the "Deathball-Argument" again and again because it's just a fact. In SC2 every race seems to have its own "deathball" which it can and wants to create from 3 saturated bases and this just makes for a boring game. +SC2 has tiny armies compared to SC/BW so it's often just not a good choice to not have your full force fighting, you have to be damn sure you will do massive damage if you decide to spend 20-30 supply on something else than the "main" battlefront. Or just search Lalush's posts on TL and on Reddit... | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
Interesting topic, I think. | ||
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