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This has been bothering me for awhile, but it's something I wanted to talk about and discuss with you guys. The goal with some of the game design buffs for HoTS was to add excitement and increase the skill cap at the highest possible level. The two flagship changes here are the addition of medivac speed boost, and the buff to Mutalisks regeneration rate and acceleration speeds. The medivac boost is a different topic for a different day, but the Mutalisk buff as done with the idea being that players that already had great muta micro would be able to use the unit even more effectively.
Sadly, the buff has had the complete opposite effect. When was the last time you saw insane muta micro as a zerg deftly harassed a Terran or Protoss player to death? I haven't seen it happen yet in HoTS, and a huge part of that is because muta's are so insanely strong that players have adapted all their timings and reactions specifically to deal with them. Not only that but the difference between a player were near perfect muta control and one who makes many large mistakes with their cloud of muta's doesn't really show up. A huge mistake with mutas right now only leads to them running off to heal, but pre buff that kind of mistake would be near game ending.
Upon closer inspection of TvZ when you look at how Terrans are preparing for that matchup basically every single timing is based on attacking the zerg before he can get a large cloud of mutas. If a Zerg tries to get muta's too fast he simply won't be able to defend the Terran push, and the more normal muta timings are currently used defensively to stop drops/kill medivacs in defensive positions. The new mutas actually serve this role better than the old ones as currently they are one of zergs most cost effective fighting units. Old muta's wouldn't be able to survive consistent fighting, and all the beatings they take currently. The game is very limited right now in TvZ, and even though the matchup is very exciting and probably even Terran favoured the power of the muta has had a huge cause and effect on this. The days of a small pack of mutas harassing the Terrans mineral lines and production are long gone, the mutas are simply more effective being defensive because of how tanky they are. This is compounded further by the fact that Terrans gameplan is based entirely around attacking constantly before muta's can even become an issue, and that is down to how insanely strong they are if you give the zerg that opening.
Looking at the other non mirror PvZ we see that mass muta has only one correct response. Protoss simply have to go phoenix to stop the zergs muta ball. There is no other option, storms/blink stalkers simply bruise the mutas and the pack gets bigger and bigger until the Protoss player is picked to pieces. This happens regardless of how skilled the Zerg is with his muta's and no Zerg has come out with muta micro that makes you go "holy shit". The phoenix is also a complete hard counter to the Muta, and while it does take a bit of micro to handl phoenix against muta's it's really nothing too special. In fact a lot of zergs simple use the muta to force the phoenix out because Protoss has to respond with them, then they sacrifice the muta's and build a strong ground army while the Protoss is stuck with a bunch of useless phoenix. There isn't any excitement or opportunities to out micro, the matchup comes down to "does he have enough phoenix to defend?"
This is going to sound absolutely crazy, and possibly even insane but why not nerf the muta to address TvZ and PvZ? By nerfing the muta players will have more options available to deal with them and the truly skilled players will still be able to get a lot of mileage out of them. This kind of change might even be a buff for the truly skilled zergs out there. If Jaedong gets 12 mutas in his hands but the Protoss he's playing against no longer has to go straight for a hard counter but can instead rely on a soft counter, it becomes Jaedongs skill vs. his opponents skill to determine who has the most success.
Maybe I'm just crazy, but I believe the more you increase the options for players to deal with certain units and situations the more you highlight players individual skill.
Oh and hey, if all you can post is "LOL Zerg needs buffs not nerfs" then you're not thinking outside the box and seeing the whole picture.
  
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Mutalisks will never be as cool and interesting as they were in BW because of SC2 mechanics are too casual-friendly, which is the root of many of the game issues.
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What about nerfing sentrys? Time for some out of the box thinking!
Interesting thought but kinda nonsense.
*sigh* Since when is every Terran timing based on mutas? That is simply just wrong. There is no mutalisk micro in sc2 like in Broodwar stop comparing it, its simply not possible(Also using Jaedong as an example of the highest of zerg play is questionable). Getting specific units to counter other is also just nothing new and thats how sc2 is designed, its designed around counters in strategy and composition. Mutas arent tanky at all and didnt get more tanky too. They can get damage, regenerate their HP and keep harassing, its working as inteded, they didnt get a hp or armor buff(Also it favors harass and low muta count usage because you can abuse that mechanic). Mutas are used defensive in TvZ because Terrans are so mobile that they can be constant aggressive, I don't see how removing hp reg on mutas fixes that.
SC2 is a deathbally game and will ever be with that low base counts, muta flocks are just one symptom.
I have to agree with your statement that youre just crazy. The mutas are hunting you everywhere, and you cant leave...
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Well I've been playing random since the release of HotS. I dislike Mutalisks in all matchups except TvZ and ZvT. I feel they perform well against Widow Mines.
Mutalisks feel out of place and abused in the other matchups as there doesn't seem to be a clear role for them to fill. In Brood War Mutalisks had a very precise role as the game matured. Currently Mutalisks just beat other things and it isn't difficult to execute.
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I don't think the mutalisk can be nerfed. In WOL, the infestor was the best tier unit to make in the mid game in preparation for the late game. In HoTS, the infestorbwas rightfully nerfed. To make up for this nerf, Blizzard had to buff mutalisks, hydralisks, and add a new unit (the swarm host) to allow zergs to make viable and powerful mid game compositions.
If the mutalisk is nerfed, the zerg will lack a powerful mid game unit to use. If that is the case, zergs will struggle to find answers to powerful mid game armies by terran and protoss.
Your argument that it stifles play from the other races is, in my opinion, a necessary sacrifice. The zerg race needs options, and the mutalisk offers them options. Terran and protoss players have less options, but they still have many builds and timings that they can use.
Finally, the game is still young. There are several builds and timings that players have not discovered yet. Give it time, and soon, maybe players will have several unique and different builds to use while zergs can continue to use a buffed mutalisk.
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On June 12 2013 04:43 TheBigO wrote:
I don't think the mutalisk can be nerfed. In WOL, the infestor was the best tier unit to make in the mid game in preparation for the late game. In HoTS, the infestorbwas rightfully nerfed. To make up for this nerf, Blizzard had to buff mutalisks, hydralisks, and add a new unit (the swarm host) to allow zergs to make viable and powerful mid game compositions.
If the mutalisk is nerfed, the zerg will lack a powerful mid game unit to use. If that is the case, zergs will struggle to find answers to powerful mid game armies by terran and protoss.
Your argument that it stifles play from the other races is, in my opinion, a necessary sacrifice. The zerg race needs options, and the mutalisk offers them options. Terran and protoss players have less options, but they still have many builds and timings that they can use.
Finally, the game is still young. There are several builds and timings that players have not discovered yet. Give it time, and soon, maybe players will have several unique and different builds to use while zergs can continue to use a buffed mutalisk.
I think Terran has the most options overall, since hellbats and booster make even mech mobile, do you mean especially against mutas?
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On June 12 2013 04:52 D4V3Z02 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 04:43 TheBigO wrote:
I don't think the mutalisk can be nerfed. In WOL, the infestor was the best tier unit to make in the mid game in preparation for the late game. In HoTS, the infestorbwas rightfully nerfed. To make up for this nerf, Blizzard had to buff mutalisks, hydralisks, and add a new unit (the swarm host) to allow zergs to make viable and powerful mid game compositions.
If the mutalisk is nerfed, the zerg will lack a powerful mid game unit to use. If that is the case, zergs will struggle to find answers to powerful mid game armies by terran and protoss.
Your argument that it stifles play from the other races is, in my opinion, a necessary sacrifice. The zerg race needs options, and the mutalisk offers them options. Terran and protoss players have less options, but they still have many builds and timings that they can use.
Finally, the game is still young. There are several builds and timings that players have not discovered yet. Give it time, and soon, maybe players will have several unique and different builds to use while zergs can continue to use a buffed mutalisk. I think Terran has the most options overall, since hellbats and booster make even mech mobile, do you mean especially against mutas?
Terrans have plenty of options even with a buffed mutalisk. Protoss do as well. That is exactly the point I was trying to make. Mutalisks may deter unit comps like marauder hellbat, or force Protoss to use more stargate based openings. But, any potential builds and unit combinations that are lost due to a buffed mutalisk is, as I have said before, a necessary sacrifice. This sacrifice, moreover, is minimal IMO, and terrans and protoss still have plenty of potential builds and timings. In the end, while Zerg players may not have the most options (that honor goes to terran, as you said), zerg players have enough options because of the mutalisk to be creative and flexible without stifling the metagame.
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I think the Infestor needs a buff.
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On June 12 2013 07:47 ninazerg wrote:
I think the Infestor needs a buff.
Patch notes 1.2
Fungal range increased from 10 to 20
Infestor max energy increased from 200 to 400
Infestor gain Consume ability
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So long as moving shot doesn't exist in SC2, mutas will never be fixed.
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Muta is rarely used to harass a Terran is because you need those muta to kill drops not because of the regen or increase movement speed
muta corruptor vs phenoix void ray is really fun to play/watch in ZvP
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2011 build orders is what killed "small packs" of harassing mutas. There is no way of competing with a 3base double upgrade Terran when you open up 2base muta, so your mutalisk harass is severly delayed until you have 1-1 and banelingspeed and 3unning bases.
And the HotS metagame without tanks and more marines - which means both, better anti-mutalisk and less targets for the mutalisks to harass - doesn't improve the situation at all.
And then we haven't talked about how a single random widow mine on the map could lose you a game, because you simply cannot have your screen permanently at your mutas when you move them. (if they didn't have regeneration)
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On June 12 2013 10:20 Bagration wrote:Patch notes 1.2 Fungal range increased from 10 to 20 Infestor max energy increased from 200 to 400 Infestor gain Consume ability
It's a good start, but I think David Kim needs to buff it more, and he also needs to send me an apology letter.
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Muta were buffed, yes but you forget mines can wipe off muta group in a split second. And how medivac is unfun because they have a oops-forgive my mistake button. Not to mention mutas are used to defend from harass more. Im all up for muta buff reverse if Medivac lose speed and mines cant target air.
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The muta buff was definitely a necessary change and I think most every pro/semipro from wol->hots would agree on this point. But I do agree that it may possibly have been too much. I agree with op that the entertainment of muta games has become quite low (with the exception of zvt) and there are too limited numbers of options in dealing with 'mass mutalisk' once its already hatched (at least from the P side). As such, PvZ games are being approached in a number of new ways that seek to either have air superiority or limit the amount of gas being mined and/or force zerg to use their larva in other ways & prevent a bank. Personally, I think the strength of the muta has actually made the PvZ matchup a lot more diverse and fun to play since we must now 'respect the muta' and play either a very aggressive or very turtley-air style. In retrospect of the last few months of practice, I don't really think a nerf is warranted quite yet. Give it time, there are a few bigger issues than this one that create incomparably stale gameplay.
TL;DR: I'm a protoss player. I find Mutas to be good. Protoss find it hard, but, we're finding options to cope. Nerf other things first. This is definitely not a primary concern imo.
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I dont think there is a problem
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Zerg actually don't care about phoenix, almost Zerg scout Stargate and still making Mutalisk + some corruptor just because it's overpower.
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EPT
