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Laddering In HOTS

Blogs > xICEEx
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xICEEx
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States14 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-18 01:56:41
April 18 2013 01:54 GMT
#1
So I'd like to get everyone's opinion on the status of the HOTS ladder "situation"... Recently I've played probably two-thirds majority of cheesers or early game all-in'ing opponents. I've seen a lot of streamers, high, mid, and low level players encounter cheesy-er play. I don't think this helps people looking to increase their macro, fundamentals, or mid-late game mindset\strategies. Currently I'm trying to improve my mid-late game TvP which isn't going well onlying having played against MSC/Stalker Pressure or Immortal all-ins. Also on a side note, I feel like the ladder is just it, the ladder, people determine how good you on your rank on the ladder, but without the ladder helping you improve how are you supposed to become better? Practice partners, clan practice, custom games?
-SupeR

*
I've Never Dreamed About Success. I've Worked For It.
Shortizz
Profile Joined July 2011
Singapore129 Posts
April 18 2013 02:33 GMT
#2
If you cant beat cheese/all-in, why even bother about improving ur macro and late game play?
lubu42
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States314 Posts
April 18 2013 02:39 GMT
#3
You're going to face cheese/all-ins on ladder so you have to learn how to deal with them. Regardless of what IdrA thinks (huehue) that type of play is a legitimate style that you need to learn to play against. If you're looking to practice something specific then try and find some practice partners to help you with it through CG's because if someone on ladder cheese's you or goes a build that differs from what you're trying to practice then you have to try to defend against it or lose. The ladder helps you improve because anyone can say "I'm going to do this build this game" but thats not how the game of starcraft works. You have to learn how to adapt to your opponents play and counter it.

Personally the only cheese I have been getting lately is ZvZ speeding/bling all ins.
SlayerS_BoxeR <3
damahammer
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany111 Posts
April 18 2013 02:44 GMT
#4
On April 18 2013 10:54 xICEEx wrote:
I feel like the ladder is just it, the ladder, people determine how good you on your rank on the ladder, but without the ladder helping you improve how are you supposed to become better? Practice partners, clan practice, custom games?
-SupeR

No shit man.... that is the whole point of pratice partners... ofc they are better for improving than the ladder.
The game is new, so ofc peole are going ot cheese much more than in WoL where tehy almost couldn't since people knew what was coming all the time.
xICEEx
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States14 Posts
April 18 2013 02:46 GMT
#5
I don't have a problem playing against cheese, which is just early game pressure, or trying to get you to differ your build. I can get past cheese alright. I'm just trying to start a discussion about peoples thoughts on practicing, and the ladder right now.
I've Never Dreamed About Success. I've Worked For It.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
April 18 2013 03:16 GMT
#6
Some people cheese, some don't.

Stop focusing on the fact that they are cheesing and learn to defend it. Soon you will not see this phenomena at all, and see all games as one. Cheese or no cheese, they are all valid strategies and all counterable.

(FYI i am Top 8 masters and I see both worlds)
from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
April 18 2013 04:56 GMT
#7
Started 3 weeks ago. I exclusively cheese in 2s (to diamond) and cheese more than half the time in 1s (to gold, about half as many games as 2s.) The pros in my mind are:

1) A person who wins a ladder game (sans my case probably) who cheeses is simply better. They have better micro if they beat you flat out, they have better multitask if they damage you enough to transition into a regular game.

2) Assuming the opposite, that people who cheese suck then that means I have an artificially inflated MMR. Aka a dream come true. 50% winrate causes a player's skill increase rate to stagnate, the exception being if they're somehow able to learn exceptionally faster than the prolls out there. I personally don't want to reinvent competitive starcraft, and trying to perfect builds against bads is a waste of time. Playing people who I should not beat is the best opportunity to learn (assuming they aren't so much better than me that my mind is turned to jello or something.)

Either way people being unwilling to defend or use cheese not because they mechanically aren't capable but because they think it's "cheap" or bm have losing mentality and probably should just play unranked. Or go play Solitaire.

Not that the above person is you, as you've already stated

Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 18 2013 04:56 GMT
#8
Obviously its good to learn how to defend cheese. But the OP is right about it not being a good way to improve (for those doing it). They are just flipping coins looking for a win. It's called being a tryhard, and those who do it all the time miss out on so much of Starcraft. Personally I just find those games really boring to play.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-18 05:02:07
April 18 2013 04:59 GMT
#9
On April 18 2013 13:56 cgrinker wrote:
Started 3 weeks ago. I exclusively cheese in 2s (to diamond) and cheese more than half the time in 1s (to gold, about half as many games as 2s.) The pros in my mind are:

1) A person who wins a ladder game (sans my case probably) who cheeses is simply better. They have better micro if they beat you flat out, they have better multitask if they damage you enough to transition into a regular game.

2) Assuming the opposite, that people who cheese suck then that means I have an artificially inflated MMR. Aka a dream come true. 50% winrate causes a player's skill increase rate to stagnate, the exception being if they're somehow able to learn exceptionally faster than the prolls out there. I personally don't want to reinvent competitive starcraft, and trying to perfect builds against bads is a waste of time. Playing people who I should not beat is the best opportunity to learn (assuming they aren't so much better than me that my mind is turned to jello or something.)

Either way people being unwilling to defend or use cheese not because they mechanically aren't capable but because they think it's "cheap" or bm have losing mentality and probably should just play unranked. Or go play Solitaire.

Not that the above person is you, as you've already stated



It's not about micro, it's about crossing your fingers and hoping not to be scouted. That's the definition of a coinflip. If I scout a 4 gate, for example, I win 95% of the time. It had nothing to do with skill.

It's an interesting theory about wanting to play people who are better than you. But I find it doubtful that you stop cheesing as soon as you detect your MMR is inflated a bit.

Both Capoch and Gaulzi, two notorious cheesers, have admitted that they're not really good at the game compared to those near them in rank. Their ladder rank is inflated because they've exploited a time period in the game (early game) where the skill differential is flattened.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
April 18 2013 05:52 GMT
#10
I think a lot of it is because people don't know wtf to do for openers, because the metagame is pretty unstable right now

In 6 months or so it will probably mellow out, but until then there's going to be a lot of uncertainty since units are still being explored
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
Leyra
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1222 Posts
April 18 2013 14:25 GMT
#11
Don't know why you expect to practice a specific matchup + stage of the game on ladder. If you're actually focusing your practice to improve, and that specific area of your gameplay is lacking, the best bet is custom games. Get someone around your skill, or ideally, a little better, and drill that portion of the game over and over.
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