• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:45
CEST 18:45
KST 01:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection1Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th115Weekly Cups (May 18-25): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League5Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double1Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results2
StarCraft 2
General
The death of cheese, from a professional cheeser. StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? Changing from 12 to 8 is just asking for StarCraft
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train
Brood War
General
Data needed BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ? Soma's ASL Finals Review FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [BSL22] WB Final & LB Semis - Saturday 21:00 CEST
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
McBoner: A hockey love story 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2463 users

Laddering In HOTS

Blogs > xICEEx
Post a Reply
xICEEx
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States14 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-18 01:56:41
April 18 2013 01:54 GMT
#1
So I'd like to get everyone's opinion on the status of the HOTS ladder "situation"... Recently I've played probably two-thirds majority of cheesers or early game all-in'ing opponents. I've seen a lot of streamers, high, mid, and low level players encounter cheesy-er play. I don't think this helps people looking to increase their macro, fundamentals, or mid-late game mindset\strategies. Currently I'm trying to improve my mid-late game TvP which isn't going well onlying having played against MSC/Stalker Pressure or Immortal all-ins. Also on a side note, I feel like the ladder is just it, the ladder, people determine how good you on your rank on the ladder, but without the ladder helping you improve how are you supposed to become better? Practice partners, clan practice, custom games?
-SupeR

*
I've Never Dreamed About Success. I've Worked For It.
Shortizz
Profile Joined July 2011
Singapore129 Posts
April 18 2013 02:33 GMT
#2
If you cant beat cheese/all-in, why even bother about improving ur macro and late game play?
lubu42
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States314 Posts
April 18 2013 02:39 GMT
#3
You're going to face cheese/all-ins on ladder so you have to learn how to deal with them. Regardless of what IdrA thinks (huehue) that type of play is a legitimate style that you need to learn to play against. If you're looking to practice something specific then try and find some practice partners to help you with it through CG's because if someone on ladder cheese's you or goes a build that differs from what you're trying to practice then you have to try to defend against it or lose. The ladder helps you improve because anyone can say "I'm going to do this build this game" but thats not how the game of starcraft works. You have to learn how to adapt to your opponents play and counter it.

Personally the only cheese I have been getting lately is ZvZ speeding/bling all ins.
SlayerS_BoxeR <3
damahammer
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany111 Posts
April 18 2013 02:44 GMT
#4
On April 18 2013 10:54 xICEEx wrote:
I feel like the ladder is just it, the ladder, people determine how good you on your rank on the ladder, but without the ladder helping you improve how are you supposed to become better? Practice partners, clan practice, custom games?
-SupeR

No shit man.... that is the whole point of pratice partners... ofc they are better for improving than the ladder.
The game is new, so ofc peole are going ot cheese much more than in WoL where tehy almost couldn't since people knew what was coming all the time.
xICEEx
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States14 Posts
April 18 2013 02:46 GMT
#5
I don't have a problem playing against cheese, which is just early game pressure, or trying to get you to differ your build. I can get past cheese alright. I'm just trying to start a discussion about peoples thoughts on practicing, and the ladder right now.
I've Never Dreamed About Success. I've Worked For It.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
April 18 2013 03:16 GMT
#6
Some people cheese, some don't.

Stop focusing on the fact that they are cheesing and learn to defend it. Soon you will not see this phenomena at all, and see all games as one. Cheese or no cheese, they are all valid strategies and all counterable.

(FYI i am Top 8 masters and I see both worlds)
from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
April 18 2013 04:56 GMT
#7
Started 3 weeks ago. I exclusively cheese in 2s (to diamond) and cheese more than half the time in 1s (to gold, about half as many games as 2s.) The pros in my mind are:

1) A person who wins a ladder game (sans my case probably) who cheeses is simply better. They have better micro if they beat you flat out, they have better multitask if they damage you enough to transition into a regular game.

2) Assuming the opposite, that people who cheese suck then that means I have an artificially inflated MMR. Aka a dream come true. 50% winrate causes a player's skill increase rate to stagnate, the exception being if they're somehow able to learn exceptionally faster than the prolls out there. I personally don't want to reinvent competitive starcraft, and trying to perfect builds against bads is a waste of time. Playing people who I should not beat is the best opportunity to learn (assuming they aren't so much better than me that my mind is turned to jello or something.)

Either way people being unwilling to defend or use cheese not because they mechanically aren't capable but because they think it's "cheap" or bm have losing mentality and probably should just play unranked. Or go play Solitaire.

Not that the above person is you, as you've already stated

Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 18 2013 04:56 GMT
#8
Obviously its good to learn how to defend cheese. But the OP is right about it not being a good way to improve (for those doing it). They are just flipping coins looking for a win. It's called being a tryhard, and those who do it all the time miss out on so much of Starcraft. Personally I just find those games really boring to play.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-18 05:02:07
April 18 2013 04:59 GMT
#9
On April 18 2013 13:56 cgrinker wrote:
Started 3 weeks ago. I exclusively cheese in 2s (to diamond) and cheese more than half the time in 1s (to gold, about half as many games as 2s.) The pros in my mind are:

1) A person who wins a ladder game (sans my case probably) who cheeses is simply better. They have better micro if they beat you flat out, they have better multitask if they damage you enough to transition into a regular game.

2) Assuming the opposite, that people who cheese suck then that means I have an artificially inflated MMR. Aka a dream come true. 50% winrate causes a player's skill increase rate to stagnate, the exception being if they're somehow able to learn exceptionally faster than the prolls out there. I personally don't want to reinvent competitive starcraft, and trying to perfect builds against bads is a waste of time. Playing people who I should not beat is the best opportunity to learn (assuming they aren't so much better than me that my mind is turned to jello or something.)

Either way people being unwilling to defend or use cheese not because they mechanically aren't capable but because they think it's "cheap" or bm have losing mentality and probably should just play unranked. Or go play Solitaire.

Not that the above person is you, as you've already stated



It's not about micro, it's about crossing your fingers and hoping not to be scouted. That's the definition of a coinflip. If I scout a 4 gate, for example, I win 95% of the time. It had nothing to do with skill.

It's an interesting theory about wanting to play people who are better than you. But I find it doubtful that you stop cheesing as soon as you detect your MMR is inflated a bit.

Both Capoch and Gaulzi, two notorious cheesers, have admitted that they're not really good at the game compared to those near them in rank. Their ladder rank is inflated because they've exploited a time period in the game (early game) where the skill differential is flattened.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
April 18 2013 05:52 GMT
#10
I think a lot of it is because people don't know wtf to do for openers, because the metagame is pretty unstable right now

In 6 months or so it will probably mellow out, but until then there's going to be a lot of uncertainty since units are still being explored
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
Leyra
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1222 Posts
April 18 2013 14:25 GMT
#11
Don't know why you expect to practice a specific matchup + stage of the game on ladder. If you're actually focusing your practice to improve, and that specific area of your gameplay is lacking, the best bet is custom games. Get someone around your skill, or ideally, a little better, and drill that portion of the game over and over.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#54
RotterdaM921
TKL 260
TaKeTV 259
BRAT_OK 75
IndyStarCraft 69
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 921
ProTech558
TKL 260
BRAT_OK 75
IndyStarCraft 69
Codebar 20
JuggernautJason3
StarCraft: Brood War
Free 210
Dewaltoss 99
firebathero 85
Zeus 83
Backho 52
Aegong 32
sSak 30
IntoTheRainbow 24
soO 16
ajuk12(nOOB) 10
[ Show more ]
Sacsri 6
Dota 2
qojqva2678
Counter-Strike
fl0m2033
kRYSTAL_589
x6flipin392
adren_tv53
Other Games
singsing2527
Grubby2116
Liquid`RaSZi1595
hiko1193
Dendi542
byalli506
ceh9375
Hui .244
B2W.Neo151
KnowMe135
XaKoH 123
Liquid`VortiX90
Mew2King61
Trikslyr42
MindelVK10
UpATreeSC0
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV226
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 102
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 42
• Michael_bg 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV446
League of Legends
• Jankos2348
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 15m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
17h 15m
WardiTV Spring Champion…
18h 15m
Maestros of the Game
22h 45m
The PondCast
1d 17h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 18h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 22h
Maestros of the Game
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Spring Champion…
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Solar vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
GSL
5 days
herO vs Rogue
Maru vs Cure
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
BSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KK 2v2 League Season 1
RSL Revival: Season 5
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.