• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:38
CEST 20:38
KST 03:38
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End0Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!41Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory
Brood War
General
Rush's Odyssey Controversy StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II BW General Discussion Best Games Kespa era [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro24 Group A CSLAN 4 is Coming! [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Artificial Intelligence Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9365 users

Laddering In HOTS

Blogs > xICEEx
Post a Reply
xICEEx
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States14 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-18 01:56:41
April 18 2013 01:54 GMT
#1
So I'd like to get everyone's opinion on the status of the HOTS ladder "situation"... Recently I've played probably two-thirds majority of cheesers or early game all-in'ing opponents. I've seen a lot of streamers, high, mid, and low level players encounter cheesy-er play. I don't think this helps people looking to increase their macro, fundamentals, or mid-late game mindset\strategies. Currently I'm trying to improve my mid-late game TvP which isn't going well onlying having played against MSC/Stalker Pressure or Immortal all-ins. Also on a side note, I feel like the ladder is just it, the ladder, people determine how good you on your rank on the ladder, but without the ladder helping you improve how are you supposed to become better? Practice partners, clan practice, custom games?
-SupeR

*
I've Never Dreamed About Success. I've Worked For It.
Shortizz
Profile Joined July 2011
Singapore129 Posts
April 18 2013 02:33 GMT
#2
If you cant beat cheese/all-in, why even bother about improving ur macro and late game play?
lubu42
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States314 Posts
April 18 2013 02:39 GMT
#3
You're going to face cheese/all-ins on ladder so you have to learn how to deal with them. Regardless of what IdrA thinks (huehue) that type of play is a legitimate style that you need to learn to play against. If you're looking to practice something specific then try and find some practice partners to help you with it through CG's because if someone on ladder cheese's you or goes a build that differs from what you're trying to practice then you have to try to defend against it or lose. The ladder helps you improve because anyone can say "I'm going to do this build this game" but thats not how the game of starcraft works. You have to learn how to adapt to your opponents play and counter it.

Personally the only cheese I have been getting lately is ZvZ speeding/bling all ins.
SlayerS_BoxeR <3
damahammer
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany111 Posts
April 18 2013 02:44 GMT
#4
On April 18 2013 10:54 xICEEx wrote:
I feel like the ladder is just it, the ladder, people determine how good you on your rank on the ladder, but without the ladder helping you improve how are you supposed to become better? Practice partners, clan practice, custom games?
-SupeR

No shit man.... that is the whole point of pratice partners... ofc they are better for improving than the ladder.
The game is new, so ofc peole are going ot cheese much more than in WoL where tehy almost couldn't since people knew what was coming all the time.
xICEEx
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States14 Posts
April 18 2013 02:46 GMT
#5
I don't have a problem playing against cheese, which is just early game pressure, or trying to get you to differ your build. I can get past cheese alright. I'm just trying to start a discussion about peoples thoughts on practicing, and the ladder right now.
I've Never Dreamed About Success. I've Worked For It.
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
April 18 2013 03:16 GMT
#6
Some people cheese, some don't.

Stop focusing on the fact that they are cheesing and learn to defend it. Soon you will not see this phenomena at all, and see all games as one. Cheese or no cheese, they are all valid strategies and all counterable.

(FYI i am Top 8 masters and I see both worlds)
from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
April 18 2013 04:56 GMT
#7
Started 3 weeks ago. I exclusively cheese in 2s (to diamond) and cheese more than half the time in 1s (to gold, about half as many games as 2s.) The pros in my mind are:

1) A person who wins a ladder game (sans my case probably) who cheeses is simply better. They have better micro if they beat you flat out, they have better multitask if they damage you enough to transition into a regular game.

2) Assuming the opposite, that people who cheese suck then that means I have an artificially inflated MMR. Aka a dream come true. 50% winrate causes a player's skill increase rate to stagnate, the exception being if they're somehow able to learn exceptionally faster than the prolls out there. I personally don't want to reinvent competitive starcraft, and trying to perfect builds against bads is a waste of time. Playing people who I should not beat is the best opportunity to learn (assuming they aren't so much better than me that my mind is turned to jello or something.)

Either way people being unwilling to defend or use cheese not because they mechanically aren't capable but because they think it's "cheap" or bm have losing mentality and probably should just play unranked. Or go play Solitaire.

Not that the above person is you, as you've already stated

Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 18 2013 04:56 GMT
#8
Obviously its good to learn how to defend cheese. But the OP is right about it not being a good way to improve (for those doing it). They are just flipping coins looking for a win. It's called being a tryhard, and those who do it all the time miss out on so much of Starcraft. Personally I just find those games really boring to play.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-18 05:02:07
April 18 2013 04:59 GMT
#9
On April 18 2013 13:56 cgrinker wrote:
Started 3 weeks ago. I exclusively cheese in 2s (to diamond) and cheese more than half the time in 1s (to gold, about half as many games as 2s.) The pros in my mind are:

1) A person who wins a ladder game (sans my case probably) who cheeses is simply better. They have better micro if they beat you flat out, they have better multitask if they damage you enough to transition into a regular game.

2) Assuming the opposite, that people who cheese suck then that means I have an artificially inflated MMR. Aka a dream come true. 50% winrate causes a player's skill increase rate to stagnate, the exception being if they're somehow able to learn exceptionally faster than the prolls out there. I personally don't want to reinvent competitive starcraft, and trying to perfect builds against bads is a waste of time. Playing people who I should not beat is the best opportunity to learn (assuming they aren't so much better than me that my mind is turned to jello or something.)

Either way people being unwilling to defend or use cheese not because they mechanically aren't capable but because they think it's "cheap" or bm have losing mentality and probably should just play unranked. Or go play Solitaire.

Not that the above person is you, as you've already stated



It's not about micro, it's about crossing your fingers and hoping not to be scouted. That's the definition of a coinflip. If I scout a 4 gate, for example, I win 95% of the time. It had nothing to do with skill.

It's an interesting theory about wanting to play people who are better than you. But I find it doubtful that you stop cheesing as soon as you detect your MMR is inflated a bit.

Both Capoch and Gaulzi, two notorious cheesers, have admitted that they're not really good at the game compared to those near them in rank. Their ladder rank is inflated because they've exploited a time period in the game (early game) where the skill differential is flattened.
GTPGlitch
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
5061 Posts
April 18 2013 05:52 GMT
#10
I think a lot of it is because people don't know wtf to do for openers, because the metagame is pretty unstable right now

In 6 months or so it will probably mellow out, but until then there's going to be a lot of uncertainty since units are still being explored
Jo Byung Se #1 fan | CJ_Rush(reborn) fan | Liquid'Jinro(ret) fan | Liquid'Taeja fan | oGsTheSuperNada fan | Iris[gm](ret) fan |
Leyra
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1222 Posts
April 18 2013 14:25 GMT
#11
Don't know why you expect to practice a specific matchup + stage of the game on ladder. If you're actually focusing your practice to improve, and that specific area of your gameplay is lacking, the best bet is custom games. Get someone around your skill, or ideally, a little better, and drill that portion of the game over and over.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
HomeStory Cup
17:00
Promo Event
TaKeTV 647
IPSL
16:00
CSLAN Day 2
Airneanach245
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 250
mouzHeroMarine 238
BRAT_OK 78
ProTech72
Vindicta 28
EmSc Tv 18
StarCraft: Brood War
Sexy 113
Dewaltoss 63
Rock 27
NaDa 18
ivOry 10
scan(afreeca) 9
Dota 2
qojqva4306
XaKoH 502
Counter-Strike
fl0m6178
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King290
Chillindude40
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu399
Other Games
Grubby1717
Liquid`RaSZi1711
Beastyqt755
mouzStarbuck352
KnowMe11
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1038
StarCraft 2
EmSc2Tv 18
EmSc Tv 18
angryscii 7
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 33
• Reevou 8
• maralekos8
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki25
• Pr0nogo 4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2332
• Nemesis1360
Other Games
• imaqtpie940
• Shiphtur337
Upcoming Events
OSC
5h 22m
Afreeca Starleague
15h 22m
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
16h 22m
The Patches Monday
21h 22m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 15h
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
GSL
1d 16h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
CSLAN 4
Proleague 2026-08-16
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

ASL Season 22
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
Escore Tournament S3: W8
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.