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On April 10 2013 21:37 Yapa wrote:
Korean culture is more accepting and encouraging towards kids/teenagers actively pursuing a career in esports.
This really isn't true. Most parents here would be pissed/ban their kids from pursuing this sort of career instead of studying. Starcraft is a long long way down the chain of respectable sporting professions, even in Korea.
I agree completely about the superior infrastructure but in terms of social conditioning it's more the Korean work ethic and how well they work in a group living situation that I feel benefits them the most. Westerners do tend to be more individualistic whereas Koreans are very communal, thus they'd probably get more out of a team house setting. Koreans are also more likely to listen to and respect an older coach/player and listen to them than their western counterparts.
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On April 10 2013 22:09 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 21:37 Yapa wrote:
Korean culture is more accepting and encouraging towards kids/teenagers actively pursuing a career in esports. This really isn't true. Most parents here would be pissed/ban their kids from pursuing this sort of career instead of studying. Starcraft is a long long way down the chain of respectable sporting professions, even in Korea. I agree completely about the superior infrastructure but in terms of social conditioning it's more the Korean work ethic and how well they work in a group living situation that I feel benefits them the most. Westerners do tend to be more individualistic whereas Koreans are very communal, thus they'd probably get more out of a team house setting. Koreans are also more likely to listen to and respect an older coach/player and listen to them than their western counterparts.
It would be more accepting because of the infrastructure and social precedent already in place. Obviously there are more 'acceptable' jobs. I was alluding to it being more acceptable than western culture which is undeniable. Maybe Koreans are more adjusted to the teamhouse conditions present in Korea, there are a lot of other factors to take into account also.
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On April 10 2013 22:21 Yapa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:09 Scarecrow wrote:On April 10 2013 21:37 Yapa wrote:
Korean culture is more accepting and encouraging towards kids/teenagers actively pursuing a career in esports. This really isn't true. Most parents here would be pissed/ban their kids from pursuing this sort of career instead of studying. Starcraft is a long long way down the chain of respectable sporting professions, even in Korea. I agree completely about the superior infrastructure but in terms of social conditioning it's more the Korean work ethic and how well they work in a group living situation that I feel benefits them the most. Westerners do tend to be more individualistic whereas Koreans are very communal, thus they'd probably get more out of a team house setting. Koreans are also more likely to listen to and respect an older coach/player and listen to them than their western counterparts. It would be more accepting because of the infrastructure and social precedent already in place. Obviously there are more 'acceptable' jobs. I was alluding to it being more acceptable than western culture which is undeniable. Maybe Koreans are more adjusted to the teamhouse conditions present in Korea, there are a lot of other factors to take into account also.
Sure there's the infrastructure and a precedent, but to compare it to NZ Rugby or Brazilian soccer's taking it way too far. Korean baseball/soccer would be similar, Starcraft's more on the level of pro volleyball. Having grown up in Australia and taught in SK I'd say there's at least pretty similar levels of parental resistance to the idea of pro-gaming (probably more-so in SK with the huge focus on study/education).
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You guys are overanalyzing the depth of his analogies, he is just saying that because strong systems exist to pursue being the best at something, many people attempt it. Catz provided a good analogy where if you were told to get 100,000 to beat Michael Phelps in a swimming race, you probably wouldn't try. However, if you were told you can 50'000 for just beating your local champion (ie WCS with only NA players) it is a much more attainable goal. Then as you improve you might further pursue it to reach the level of being able to compete with phelps. Without this, why would you bother if the goal seems so far off?
That being said I think a lot of blizzards decision was based off the fact that the NA viewer numbers were low last year, and I kind of felt that was because it was tacked onto MLG...
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On April 10 2013 23:09 gamingaddictmike wrote:
You guys are overanalyzing the depth of his analogies, he is just saying that because strong systems exist to pursue being the best at something, many people attempt it. Catz provided a good analogy where if you were told to get 100,000 to beat Michael Phelps in a swimming race, you probably wouldn't try. However, if you were told you can 50'000 for just beating your local champion (ie WCS with only NA players) it is a much more attainable goal. Then as you improve you might further pursue it to reach the level of being able to compete with phelps. Without this, why would you bother if the goal seems so far off?
That being said I think a lot of blizzards decision was based off the fact that the NA viewer numbers were low last year, and I kind of felt that was because it was tacked onto MLG...
I was going to reply when I was free Mike, but your response is spot on, well said.
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There are no "strong systems" in place. There are less than 5 teams that can boast having these "systems". Three or four of these five were not even involved in Starcraft 2 until fairly recently (the Kespa teams). Pre-Kespa, Korean teams were poorly organized, poorly structured, and really just straight up poor financially.
Over the years we've heard a lot of stories about these all-powerful (as perceived by westerners who keep using them as an argument) team houses - from players having to contribute to the house from their own pockets, to being required to consistently maintain performance to be allowed to stay in the house. For most of these teams, the "house" was little more than a roof over the players' heads, a desk and a bunk bed to sleep in. There was no scheduling, no coaching, and there were certainly no sports psychologists or other specialized stuff. Just a bunch of kids trying to make a living, and one or two people that do general management of the team and the house. That's your "system".
Multiple teams have disbanded previously due to not being able to support themselves, and Korean players were desperate to sign with a foreign team, to the extent where many highly rated players signed for lesser foreign teams to get at least some form of support. In fact, a foreign-owned team (Axiom) was formed recently with the intent of helping the Korean players pursue their career under proper conditions. The founders of Axiom, if I remember correctly, stated that they feel there are many Korean players who are undersupported and underpaid relative to their foreign counterparts.
The notion that Korean players have anything easier in any conceivable category is misguided to the point of being borderline insulting. Everything, starting from life in general and cultural acceptance, to very serious personal sacrifices that have to be made and the consequences they have, is more difficult in Korea. For every mvp-tier player, there's a large number of kids that have wasted two or three years of their lives, only to ultimately fail to make a name for themselves or any money to their name. Combine that with the military service they're obligated to do, and you realize they've wasted the most productive and crucial years of their youth.
There are no external factors or systems that make them better players. The simple, blunt truth is that they live harder, work harder, and sacrifice a lot more individually - and to this day few even get paid for it. This is why they're good, because difficult environment and harsh competition breeds that level of excellence.
On the other hand, western response to harsh competition has been to roll into the fetal position and cry the Koreans away (with a few exceptions). Just take into account the fact that worlds have been moved to accommodate the foreign players - with teams and sponsors investing insane amount of money (often wastefully so) to build up the western scene, GOM opening a player house in Korea and giving countless seeds to foreigners, multiple partnerships made with Korean teams so that foreigners could go there and practice, competition formats and dates being reworked around them, team houses being established both in Korea and in the west, coaches and expert staff brought on, talented players being supported regardless of how badly they performed.
They have been given everything. Every conceivable solution has been attempted to make foreigners if not top tier players, then at least reasonably competitive ones. All failed. Now the argument some people have is that we should concede that foreigners will never really be true competitors, and organize tournaments so that they could play among themselves, thus making the competition in western SC2 (to quote a famous TLFE article) a farce.
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On April 11 2013 00:54 Talin wrote:
They have been given everything. Every conceivable solution has been attempted to make foreigners if not top tier players, then at least reasonably competitive ones. All failed. Now the argument some people have is that we should concede that foreigners will never really be true competitors, and organize tournaments so that they could play among themselves, thus making the competition in western SC2 (to quote a famous TLFE article) a farce.
IF you are right and every conceivable solution has been attempted and failed to help foreign players and all have failed then we have not conceived the correct solution. The solution is there but the infrastructure is lacking. If we take your statement whereby 'foreigners will never really be true competitors' and to relegate them to play amongst themselves into other sports we may as well tell 90% of countries to not bother entering the Olympics as they have no chance of winning. Then we are removing the most important part of competition, the act of competing itself.
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The only solution is in the players themselves, and how far they're willing to push themselves to succeed. The statement that foreigners will never be true competitors isn't mine. That is their own statement.
No level of infrastructure will get them there. All the solutions that have been tried so far were "infrastructural" in their nature, and not only did they fail, they even backfired. The general rule for foreign players so far has been that the more support they are given (financial and otherwise), the less they give back performance wise.
Furthermore, if we look up to and want to emulate the Korean style of building up progamers, then you can't only take the infrastructure out of it (which in itself is blown out of proportion, as I've pointed out). You need to emulate the environment entirely, including the hardships and pressure that every Korean player endures.
Foreign players already have an abundance of positive reinforcement. The only path that hasn't really been tried is negative reinforcement - which is very much present in the Korean scene.
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On April 11 2013 01:26 Talin wrote:
Foreign players already have an abundance of positive reinforcement. The only path that hasn't really been tried is negative reinforcement - which is very much present in the Korean scene.
Players can only work with the tools they are given. Should they want to build something more grandiose then they need help (please see my previous article on support networks). The coaching and competitive environment is simply better in Korea. Negative reinforcement is not the most efficient form of motivation long term. When I speak of infrastructure I do not mean monetary factors. You will find it difficult to overlay the Korean template to the west. It has been tried before in mainstream sport with varied success.
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You say that negative reinforcement is not the most efficient form of motivation, but the differences between Korean and western scene is much greater in terms of negative reinforcement and pressure to perform than it is in terms of things like coaching and player development. I feel it's a fallacy to cite infrastructure as the key behind Korean players' success and conveniently ignore a very harsh environment that they're subjected to and that molds them into the players that they are. Competitive environment is only better because it's harsher and more demanding.
They have very limited support groups (mostly just their teammates), and they do not have as good of a toolset and infrastructure at all. The bigger difference is that they simply must perform as once they get involved in progaming, they have very little to fall back on if they fail to make some sort of career out of it.
You compared Korean scene to Barcelona, but I would much sooner compare Starcraft in Korea to football in South American countries, specifically Argentina and Brazil. It's not football academies that make these countries the greatest exporters of football talent in the world. It's the fact that a lot of kids are prepared to pretty much go all-in on a footballing career.
I can't think of a tool that hasn't been given to foreign players so far. After everything that's been done for them, it's up to them to show that they want to be progamers rather than gamers that get paid.
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On April 11 2013 03:15 Talin wrote:
You say that negative reinforcement is not the most efficient form of motivation, but the differences between Korean and western scene is much greater in terms of negative reinforcement and pressure to perform than it is in terms of things like coaching and player development. I feel it's a fallacy to cite infrastructure as the key behind Korean players' success and conveniently ignore a very harsh environment that they're subjected to and that molds them into the players that they are. Competitive environment is only better because it's harsher and more demanding.
They have very limited support groups (mostly just their teammates), and they do not have as good of a toolset and infrastructure at all. The bigger difference is that they simply must perform as once they get involved in progaming, they have very little to fall back on if they fail to make some sort of career out of it.
You compared Korean scene to Barcelona, but I would much sooner compare Starcraft in Korea to football in South American countries, specifically Argentina and Brazil. It's not football academies that make these countries the greatest exporters of football talent in the world. It's the fact that a lot of kids are prepared to pretty much go all-in on a footballing career.
Koreans winning is not down to negative reinforcement. A harsh environment is not the reason why they are better. Koreans play Starcraft because they want a career in it. The have the best tools available to be good at the game. The system is not perfect but very good. They train on the best ladder, with the best players, in a competitive environment.
With regard Brazilians and football. Just because they historically the most famous exporter of footballing talent does not mean that every player has come from harsh surroundings with a will to succeed. Some Brazilian footballers are lazy, overpaid players taking space from hungry Western players. I really do not think our conflicting views will be sorted over forum postings. I am more than happy to continue the discussion if you want to PM me your Skype.
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On April 11 2013 02:02 Yapa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 01:26 Talin wrote:
Foreign players already have an abundance of positive reinforcement. The only path that hasn't really been tried is negative reinforcement - which is very much present in the Korean scene. Players can only work with the tools they are given. Should they want to build something more grandiose then they need help (please see my previous article on support networks). The coaching and competitive environment is simply better in Korea. Negative reinforcement is not the most efficient form of motivation long term. When I speak of infrastructure I do not mean monetary factors. You will find it difficult to overlay the Korean template to the west. It has been tried before in mainstream sport with varied success.
Yapa are you the guy working with TLO? I think I came across a few of your blogs before. In either case well said and I shall continue to monitor your blogs.
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On April 11 2013 04:33 StarStruck wrote:
Yapa are you the guy working with TLO? I think I came across a few of your blogs before. In either case well said and I shall continue to monitor your blogs.
Yes thats me, I will be aiming for weekly blogs, even if its a small update or thought. Thanks for reading Starstruck, hope you find the blogs interesting.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BLoueMS.jpg)
