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Broodlord Infestor

Blogs > ChristianS
Post a Reply
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3278 Posts
February 02 2013 00:03 GMT
#1
In my last blog I professed the goal of making it back into Diamond league before the end of WoL. In keeping with this goal, this blog will not have pictures, or editing, or thought dedicated to the structure. Because this is no ordinary blog; this is one of those most infamous of low-quality TL postings, the ladder blog (shudder).

Immediately after posting that blog I proceeded to play very little Starcraft all week, due to an influx of school work. So this weekend I'm going to try to make sure my macro doesn't completely atrophy, since that's usually the thing that goes first when I stop playing. Working on macro is always somewhat tedious, so it's nice to have some other in-game problem you're working to solve at the same time. In this case, I actually have something in mind.

TvZ


Ultimately in TvZ, everything comes down to the broodlord/infestor. When Zerg has sufficient resources, map control, and time to research, he gets up an army of unstoppable strength and comes to kill you. A number of Terran solutions have been attempted, particularly since that queen patch last April that so dramatically affected the match-up. Pure bio to maintain constant aggression before BL's come out, and abuse mobility once they are out, was all the rage for a while. Hellion banshee to destroy Zerg economy and prevent him from being able to get the infamous composition. These days a lot of Terrans just go 3 CC's, mass up a terrifying army off of three bases, and try to murder Zerg with a giant death push right before broodlords come out.

My own efforts have been a little different. I tried to 2-rax pressure to victory, but ultimately 1-base builds seemed inherently flawed against a Zerg that now had so much ease defending. More recently I've made a lot of play on the e-bay block, but if handled properly by Zerg, that only gives you a little advantage at most, and he gets the benefit of knowing you're not doing some other early pressure. Ultimately there needs to be a response to the actual problem: the broodlord infestor army.

So how do you kill broodlord infestor? There's pretty much 2 approaches:
a) take air superiority, snipe the broodlords at range with vikings, and then kill the exposed ground force.
b) take ground superiority, murder everything sitting under the broodlords with your ground army, and then shoot down the exposed broodlords.

Zerg has to guess which approach you're taking, and respond accordingly. If you try to take air superiority, he can easily mass-produce corruptors and take it back. Vikings trade well enough against corruptors, but in a few short turns Terran can't make as many vikings as Zerg can make corruptors, and your vikings suffer from being shot ground-to-air by queens, infested terrans, and fungal growths.

If you go for ground superiority instead, though, he'd probably rather those corruptors were extra infestors. Once he confirms for certain you aren't trying to take air superiority, he can make them into broodlords, of course; but if he does this too soon, and you WERE trying for air superiority, he'll find his now-considerable broodlord number picked off helplessly from the air (and that's something that's very hard to come back from).

The goal would be to get up a sizable viking/raven force, eventually complemented with battlecruisers, and then defeat the broodlord/infestor head-on, but this army takes time to build, and the broodlord/infestor will be at your door by then.

So here's the plan:
+ Show Spoiler [The Plan] +
-Open 3CC, and build up a marine tank army. Unlike many current Terran styles, though, don't sit on 3 bases; build sim-city at the third base, and try to take a fourth as soon as possible. At this point we should have 1 reactor starport, 1 tech lab factory, many many barracks.

-When 3-3-2 upgrades start, lift two reactor barracks off, and build tech labs on them. Put down two factories on these reactors, and put down two starports. As soon as vespene gas allows, start trying to get 2 additional armories and work on 1-1 air upgrades.

-push with a maxed marine tank army before broodlords come out, and try to cut Zerg off of as many bases as possible. These days this push won't outright kill him, so don't expect it to.

-with the remax, start building:
a) 4 vikings and 1 raven at a time off of the current Starport resources.
b) As many marauders as humanly possible.
c) 4 hellions and 1 siege tank at a time.

-As the broodlord infestor army marches out, use marauder hellion to delay and try to snipe infestors. Try to move one marauder/hellion force around behind the deathball, put one in front, then engage from both sides. The goal here is to kill infestors, as well as any lings or banelings he has with the army.

-Continue remaxing on this army. We're trying to wear down the infestor/broodlord army the way many players tried to deal with mech in brood war: Hurl large numbers of units at the composition in inefficient trades, and eventually overwhelm it by superior numbers.

-If you defeat all the infestors, sweep in with vikings and kill it. If you've delayed long enough to build up your viking/raven army, kill the BL army when it tries to come near and start controlling expansions with your marauder/hellion forces.

-IF HE GOES ULTRALISKS: Use your marauder/tank/hellion forces to stay alive. Try to take additional bases, and start getting battlecruisers with your air army as soon as possible. Use Vikings to go snipe overlords where possible. Ultimately the marauder/hellion/tank army is a pretty strong composition against ultras, so this should be fine.


TvP


This is easily my weakest matchup. I typically do a 2-base stim medivac timing, which is effective, but my macro falls off during the push. I get a 3rd CC while I push, but I have a lot of money and not very many units when the push is done. So here's the plan.

+ Show Spoiler [The Plan] +

-Do my normal push. Scout with an SCV at 5:00 to make sure he expanded; if he didn't, start preparing for 1-base pressure (extra bunkers, saving up scans, etc.). Take both gases at the expansion before attacking.

-Mid-push, come back home and go up to 6 barracks. It will be hard to find a moment to do this; I suppose if I have to retreat for a few seconds at some point, that would be reasonable. Make sure to build all my add-ons during this push.

-Take a third base with the CC that should be done by now. If I see colossus, get a second starport and pump vikings. If I see templar, get a ghost academy, and pump a marine-ghost-medivac army.

-Use drops to hold Protoss off of attacking, and take a base advantage. Use PF's for every base after my third, and try to snipe his expansions whenever possible.

-Upgrade ship weapons from my armory. When +3 ship weapons starts, build 3 more starports and start a fusion core.

-Mix BC's into my final composition, forcing stalkers he doesn't want to build and providing cover for my vikings to snipe colossi.


TvT


I've been pretty happy with my TvT lately, so I won't talk much about it. I get gas at about 15 food, take an expansion and put a reactor on my barracks, then mass hellions to deal with any pressure that might come out. Take my second gas as soon as possible, and start double armory as soon as possible. Then get a second factory, tech lab it, and start massing tanks, but research blue flame before I get siege mode. Take a third base, then mass up factories and get a starport.

The main trouble I face is dealing with a Terran who takes gas off one base. I spend my first 100 gas after factory on a starport, get a viking out. The barracks scouts for drops coming, and I try to stop hellion marine drops with the viking before they can reach my base. If banshees come in, I use the viking to kill them, and put tech lab the starport to get a raven. And if a basic 1-1-1 tank push comes my way, I make hellions and banshees and try desperately to stay alive.

But still my winrate is pretty bad against 1-base. I try to stop the marine hellion drop, but the viking doesn't reach them in time. Or I forget to save scans and the banshee sweeps in and kills me. Or I stop the banshee, but then a tank push still sweeps into my base and kills me. Or I successfully defend against all those possibilities, but in fact he proxied a thor, mass repairs it with a handful of marines to up his DPS, and then crushes my bunker and wins.

I think the build works against all of these; even if the hellion marine drop lands, I should be able to land the viking and hold reasonably well with viking/hellions. So I think the goal is to just hold reasonably well against one-base, try to take an earlier third against any macro strat, and play out the TvT lategame normally (I think that's one of my strengths).

*
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
February 02 2013 03:29 GMT
#2
--- Nuked ---
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3278 Posts
February 02 2013 05:58 GMT
#3
On February 02 2013 12:29 Emzeeshady wrote:
I think you are waaaaaaaay over thinking this. Terran is the easiest race to get to diamond with and I will tell you why. Plat/Diamond players simply do not have the mechanics to be able to properly defend MMM. You can literally go MMM and then A move with some splitting and win most of your games. It gets ALOT tougher for Terran once you get to masters because once Zergs/Toss players know how to play and respond correctly (at least in theory) then it gets almost impossible to win.

Try just playing and having fun then go this in depth with it because Starcraft may be a complicated game but not at diamond league. Just focus on your mechanics and having fun and you will be promoted no problem. GL.

This kind of advice always sounds useful, but in the end really isn't. Ultimately you're saying "Don't worry about strategy, just macro better." But I'm planning to work on macro anyway. In the mean time I have to choose SOME strategy, so I'm trying to choose the best one because, well, that's a big part of what makes Starcraft fun. I suppose there's some value in saying "focus on macro, it's the most important thing," so thanks for that I guess. That said, I bet I have more experience at the platinum and diamond level than you, and maybe it was true at some point that you can win consistently just on solid 2-base macro plays, but it definitely isn't these days. I've tried practicing a 2-base build and just macroing as well as possible until I have the same number of units as pro-level replays, but it still doesn't win consistently because even at this level, strategy matters. Quick MMM pushes TvP can't just push in and win, because everyone rushes colossus or some such to defend it.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
February 02 2013 20:02 GMT
#4
--- Nuked ---
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3278 Posts
February 03 2013 00:09 GMT
#5
On February 03 2013 05:02 Emzeeshady wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 02 2013 14:58 ChristianS wrote:
On February 02 2013 12:29 Emzeeshady wrote:
I think you are waaaaaaaay over thinking this. Terran is the easiest race to get to diamond with and I will tell you why. Plat/Diamond players simply do not have the mechanics to be able to properly defend MMM. You can literally go MMM and then A move with some splitting and win most of your games. It gets ALOT tougher for Terran once you get to masters because once Zergs/Toss players know how to play and respond correctly (at least in theory) then it gets almost impossible to win.

Try just playing and having fun then go this in depth with it because Starcraft may be a complicated game but not at diamond league. Just focus on your mechanics and having fun and you will be promoted no problem. GL.

This kind of advice always sounds useful, but in the end really isn't. Ultimately you're saying "Don't worry about strategy, just macro better." But I'm planning to work on macro anyway. In the mean time I have to choose SOME strategy, so I'm trying to choose the best one because, well, that's a big part of what makes Starcraft fun. I suppose there's some value in saying "focus on macro, it's the most important thing," so thanks for that I guess. That said, I bet I have more experience at the platinum and diamond level than you, and maybe it was true at some point that you can win consistently just on solid 2-base macro plays, but it definitely isn't these days. I've tried practicing a 2-base build and just macroing as well as possible until I have the same number of units as pro-level replays, but it still doesn't win consistently because even at this level, strategy matters. Quick MMM pushes TvP can't just push in and win, because everyone rushes colossus or some such to defend it.

I only spent a couple weeks in diamond as Zerg but I have been diamond for a long time as Terran and I am telling you that if you play well enough that it won't matter what you do because platinum and low diamond players have awful awful mechanics generally (I have awful mechanics in masters) and if you can macro better then them MMM will kill them every time. Doesn't have to be 2 base all ins. Just keep expanding and making MMM.

Oh, okay. You just want me to play MMM all game and macro. Is there any reason it has to be MMM? Personally I find MMM a little more boring, and I do, after all, play SC2 to have fun. I'm working on macro anyway, it's just a question of whether I'm macroing on barracks and starports or if it's on barracks, starports and factories.

Perhaps I was a little overly wordy with my game plans, but they're not really very complex ones. It's something along the lines of "build marines, marauders, tanks, and medivacs and try to kill him. When he makes vikings, favor marauders and hellions, and start making vikings" for TvZ. TvT is "defend with hellions against two-base, or with hellion/viking or hellion/viking/banshee against one-base, and get lots of tanks with fast upgrades." And TvP is exactly what you suggested: Mass up MMM and try to out-macro my opponent.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Emzeeshady
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Canada4203 Posts
February 04 2013 03:08 GMT
#6
--- Nuked ---
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3278 Posts
February 04 2013 22:50 GMT
#7
But then isn't it better practice to be macroing in different ways, since that's what macro actually consists of? It might get results quite as quickly in advancing on ladder, but surely it's a better way to become skilled at the game in the long run.

Not to mention that once again, I play SC2 to have fun. I'm not going to play MMM all game every game, because I don't find it as fun. Frankly one of the reasons I struggle in TvP is just because there don't seem to be a lot of options besides pure bio, and I just don't like pure bio that much.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12636 Posts
February 05 2013 18:13 GMT
#8
Being a diamond in all 3 races with around 65% win rate in TvZ, I think I can give you some guide:
Beating broodlord infestors head on is extremely difficult, but not so if you can keep denying his bases while grabbing your own.

IMO, the best timing is not the bomber 2-2 timing style, I find it a little bit too predictable and if you don't have bomber macro, it's hard to pull off. I have won tonnes of TvZ with pure bio and the way it works is just by keep trading efficiently and keep denying his 4th and make his produce units which will severally affect his drone timing and lower his broodlord/infestor counts.

I also had a lot of success with adding some ghosts in late game for nukes, then safely transition into a skyterran but it isn't all that advised since that means you have to fight the broodlord infestor head on

the guide is here written a while ago, but still extremely effective
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3278 Posts
February 06 2013 03:51 GMT
#9
On February 06 2013 03:13 ETisME wrote:
Being a diamond in all 3 races with around 65% win rate in TvZ, I think I can give you some guide:
Beating broodlord infestors head on is extremely difficult, but not so if you can keep denying his bases while grabbing your own.

IMO, the best timing is not the bomber 2-2 timing style, I find it a little bit too predictable and if you don't have bomber macro, it's hard to pull off. I have won tonnes of TvZ with pure bio and the way it works is just by keep trading efficiently and keep denying his 4th and make his produce units which will severally affect his drone timing and lower his broodlord/infestor counts.

I also had a lot of success with adding some ghosts in late game for nukes, then safely transition into a skyterran but it isn't all that advised since that means you have to fight the broodlord infestor head on

the guide is here written a while ago, but still extremely effective
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554

Oh, I remember that guide. Pure bio was all the rage after the queen patch, since it was the safest way to get up 3CC's to compete with the Zerg's new safer macro. I played it a lot longer than it was popular, since the next big thing was hellion banshee and I hated hellion banshee. The problem, though, was that pure bio can trade well against zerglings, roaches, and banelings, but add in either mutalisks or infestors with a large baneling count, and you just can't win engagements. You can try to be all over the map and never take a direct engagement, but at a certain point you're having to work way too hard just to stop him from barreling down your front and killing you.

My conclusion was that you need tanks. You can compete in a direct engagement until the broodlords are out, but the cost is that you have to do slower, more deliberate pushes that you commit to (pure bio, you're just always all over the map). If you attack and trade your army, then you don't get to just attack again; you have to wait, build up a tank count, maybe send out a medivac of marines but otherwise you stay put and get another army. That's not necessarily bad; in fact it's the basis of the bomber-style 2-2 push. It's just that if you're on the clock to kill him before broodlord infestor gets out, you don't have time to wait around for a decent tank count. You'll find yourself in a situation where you're a 3-base terran against a 4-base Zerg, you push and kill off a base, and yet despite even base counts, you're out of options because the broodlords are at your door. You haven't had time to get up vikings and ravens, which are the only way I've seen to effectively fight brood lord infestor.

My conclusion was that as soon as you start 3-3, and you've built your big death army, start getting the infrastructure for a) viking raven, and b) marauder hellion tank. The marauder hellions are to attack the Zerg sooner than you otherwise could, since you don't have to wait for a decent tank count. When the broodlord infestor army moves out, you try to attack it from multiple sides with marauder hellion. The goal isn't to kill the army outright; it's to delay the push and try to snipe infestors. If you engage from multiple sides you should be able to nab a few. If you can delay long enough, then you can get out the viking raven composition, which is largely the money composition you want against broodlord infestor in an outright engagement. As an added bonus, even though you're anticipating broodlords you happen to be getting out a decent response to ultralisks as well.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
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