• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 05:37
CET 11:37
KST 19:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets0$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)12Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822
StarCraft 2
General
SC2 Spotted on the EWC 2026 list? Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns Spontaneous hotkey change zerg Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes
Brood War
General
Potential ASL qualifier breakthroughs? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Data analysis on 70 million replays
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Mechabellum Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Physical Exercise (HIIT) Bef…
TrAiDoS
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2337 users

BW&SC2 Map Meta comparison.

Blogs > Caihead
Post a Reply
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-12 11:37:42
January 12 2013 11:32 GMT
#1
After reading comments from the LR thread after the EG-Liquid vs CJ Entus thread + Show Spoiler +
hydra won against JYP on Neo Caldeum with a slow-ling attack to break down the back rocks and continued into brilliant muta -> roach -> infestor tech switches to win the game with good micro
I felt physically sick. Dozens of people complaining and whining about the map, saying how it's imbalanced, blaming everybody and everyone and completely neglecting the fact that the winner displayed impressive micro and excellently planned out his strategy from beginning to end.

It lead me to a retrospective, what is it about SC2 that has made the community completely lose its way of understanding spectacle and cheering for players instead of arguing over statistics? Flaming the maps and blizzard / tournament organizers instead of anticipating what kinds of crazy strategies the players have prepared? Why do people want to achieve this mythical state of "perfect map balance" so we can have the exact same stale strategies played out time and time again with out any variation where to win two players go into a game doing the same thing over and over again and test who executes that same strategy better?

BW is a game that's riddled with questionable design decisions, obvious bugs and unintentional unit and structure behaviors, strange ai tendencies, and a mechanically obtuse interface of control that Blizzard has never bothered to readjust or patch since 2001. Anything from allied mines, lifted buildings crushing interceptors, glitching units through solid mineral patches and neutral structures, stacking units on top of each other, things that would on the surface make a game seem completely unplayable and broken by today's standards. A worker being able to phase through a mineral patch by making a building behind it? A hellion being able to phase through a pylon wall? Banelings stacking on top of each other when burrowed? It would be ridiculous and the community would cry out for immediate fixes. But instead what happened?

The community adapted and created the meta-game and strategies around the inherent design decisions of the game. Anything from lack of smart casting / firing making protoss players manually drop reavers after all the sieged tanks have volleyed simultaneously knowing it's safe, stacking mutalisks / wraiths with a slower unit to micro, patrol micro to fire with out losing turning velocity, stacking lurkers and stop commanding them to not attack until the marine ball is on top of them, mineral "walking" vultures and even lurkers through neutral structures for back stabs.... Everything that was created was organic and the community instead imposed sanctions on designs that were deemed to ruin the game's balance, such as allied mines, while keeping everything else and ADAPTING the map making and tournament structures around an evolving metagame.

The reason why BW was able to do it for more than a decade is not because it had perfect map balance and perfect racial balance. The reason was that the community and its player-base were compassionate about the game, about the competition, about creating an enjoyable show for the audience, about creating interesting and new strategies revolving around designs which are imbalanced. Because the understanding and consensus was simply that "if usage of this specific form of micro or trick was universal and could be used by all players then it is balanced, even if the micro or trick itself lends an incredible advantage to the person using it". The greatest players and those who remain in our memory are those who defied norms, who embraces imbalances and tackled them head on, always attempting new strategies and creating unique situations. In the end it didn't matter who won or lost, what mattered was that the audience were entertained by their favorite players clashing against each other, making the impossible possible, making come backs in the most desperate of situations.

Map making was just one aspect of how BW's community adapted and learned from its mistakes to continually perpetuate itself and keep strategies and metagames from becoming stale and boring. True revolutionaries ((T)Flash, (P)Bisu, (T)iloveoov, (Z)sAviOr, (T)Midas, (T)BoxeR, (P)Nal_rA, (P)Stork, (Z)Jaedong, (T)SoulKey etc etc etc) didn't cared one bit or complained about the inherent map inconsistencies or asymmetrical balance, what they did was create new builds in accordance to the specific maps and prevailing metagame in question, using the fact that their race isn't sent out on those maps to their advantage by using crazy builds that people don't have a big sample size of games to prepare for. And even though fans might be upset that their favorite player lost on a map that was unbalanced for their race or situation, we knew that what mattered were the players, not the map pool, what mattered were the quality of the games, not the statistics on the map. We never boiled our appreciation of players down to statistics and numbers when it comes to what map they were playing on.

From the inception of BW to its twilight, there have been tens if not hundreds of maps that were considered completely imbalanced in their current meta-game. Anything from Reverse Temple and Longinus 2, to Peaks of Baekdu and Destination, to Central Plains and Neo Chain Reaction, the list goes on and on and on. But if you ever asked a BW fan what they thought of when (T)Flash ingeniously rushed (P)Bisu on Monty Hall with a vespene geyser to continue mining minerals so he could walk marines into the main, or when (P)Bisu used the map to proxy gate right in the open (in the super ace match of the proleague finals no less) on Neo Chain reaction where there was a reverse ramp from the main to the natural, or when (Z)sAviOr managed to beat top terrans on extremely zerg unfavored maps, and so on and so on, would the community outcry be "THE MAP IS IMBALANCED, THE DESIGNER NEED TO CHANGE IT NOW"? Fuck no, the response was always "THAT WAS FUCKING AWESOME, HE FUCKING ROCKS, RECOMMENDED".

(T)BoxeR said it best, that every game, every practice session, he was trying to find new and innovative ways to play out an entertaining match for the fans, and often that was a much more important factor than simply winning. Even if he lost he wanted to lose in an entertaining way so that it would be memorable for the fans. The most memorable games in my mind being a (T)Flash fan-boy aren't simply the ones that he won, but the ones that were entertaining (often ones where he lost), where the players duked it out in tense micro situations and used creative solutions to overcome obstacles, abusing the terrain of the maps in any way possible to win the game.

So this is a personal pledge for everyone who might be reading this, don't boil your appreciation of games down to who won or lost, on whether or not a map or statistic is perfectly balanced, and remember what we are all here for. To cheer on our favorite players and watch or actively participate in something we are compassionate about that has provided us with entertainment and comradery. Learn from the past experiences and lessons of BW, where anything can happen at anytime, any underdog can use a one in a billion chance cheese or all-in to win over a fan favorite, where we cheered for players when we watched the games and left statistics out of our experience.

Thank you.

+ Show Spoiler +
Yes I will get back to writing BW articles eventually.


****
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
DusTerr
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
2520 Posts
January 12 2013 12:02 GMT
#2
I do agree that I'm enjoying a lot of the innovative play we're seeing on a lot of the new PL maps. I'm actually kind of tired of the current meta game we see on ladder and EVERY tournament (apart from PL) using the same maps.

However... There are certain dynamics within the races (mechanics/design) that dictates what is acceptable or not.
Because the understanding and consensus was simply that "if usage of this specific form of micro or trick was universal and could be used by all players then it is balanced

Here's the underlying issue. 1 base Protoss cannot effectively pressure Zerg's expansion. Zerg can pressure Protoss' expansion and be able to tech/expand behind it.

I definitely don't want to take away from hydra. He played the map and match up brilliantly. On the other side, JYP could have played better (maybe he should have done a wall/cannons near his ramp the way some people do on antigua). Maybe he didn't actually realize how quickly the non-armor rocks fall (although that's again his fault).
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
January 12 2013 12:05 GMT
#3
On January 12 2013 21:02 DusTerr wrote:
I do agree that I'm enjoying a lot of the innovative play we're seeing on a lot of the new PL maps. I'm actually kind of tired of the current meta game we see on ladder and EVERY tournament (apart from PL) using the same maps.

However... There are certain dynamics within the races (mechanics/design) that dictates what is acceptable or not.
Show nested quote +
Because the understanding and consensus was simply that "if usage of this specific form of micro or trick was universal and could be used by all players then it is balanced

Here's the underlying issue. 1 base Protoss cannot effectively pressure Zerg's expansion. Zerg can pressure Protoss' expansion and be able to tech/expand behind it.

I definitely don't want to take away from hydra. He played the map and match up brilliantly. On the other side, JYP could have played better (maybe he should have done a wall/cannons near his ramp the way some people do on antigua). Maybe he didn't actually realize how quickly the non-armor rocks fall (although that's again his fault).


I was referring purely to the fact that all races can destroy rocks, glitch through minerals, mineral mine, etc etc.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
ne4aJIb
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Russian Federation3209 Posts
January 12 2013 12:12 GMT
#4
Indeed, opened reddit, and most people complained the map as the main reason why jyp lost. I think jyp had to be prepared for this, take it into account that rocks can be destroyed if you go for fe, aren't they progamers and study the map? xD

Bisu,Best,Stork,Jangbi and Flash, Fantasy, Leta, Light and Jaedong, Hydra, Zero, Soulkey assemble in ACE now!
iaminfiniteOSL
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
63 Posts
January 12 2013 12:58 GMT
#5
5/5. Agree, and pretty good read. But seriously, Blizz talking about nerfing infestors when the maps and the movement speed of units is what makes them super strong, is just annoying.
HuK, Crank, ViOlet, Jaedong...
Disposition1989
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada270 Posts
January 12 2013 14:27 GMT
#6
Hopefully this gets spotlighted. Every LR thread, every /r/starcraft thread is just full of toxic QQ this QQ that posts. But I guess quality doesn't scale well with quantity : D
Caihead
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada8550 Posts
January 12 2013 15:05 GMT
#7
On January 12 2013 23:27 Disposition1989 wrote:
Hopefully this gets spotlighted. Every LR thread, every /r/starcraft thread is just full of toxic QQ this QQ that posts. But I guess quality doesn't scale well with quantity : D


I don't think that's going to happen any time soon, people tend to auto vote 1 on any blog mentioning BW and SC2 in the same sentence unless you are a TL celeb.
"If you're not living in the US or are a US Citizen, please do not tell us how to vote or how you want our country to be governed." - Serpest, American Hero
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10262 Posts
January 12 2013 16:47 GMT
#8
spotlight this shit.

i do completely agree. a lot of people think that glitches are shit for gaming and should be completely removed. I completely disagree. The most intense microing in BW came from a glitch that JulyZerg no less invented, the muta stack into muta micro. when i first saw sc2, i thought muta micro was gonna stay in the game. in retrospect, it did, but not in the same way. it wasnt the same beautiful dance between muta and worker line, where terrans would shake in fear while losing their economy. it was just, rush into the mineral line with like 20 mutas and run away if 2 turrets were there. 11 mutas could deal with 3 turrets easily if the player wanted to.

and people didnt call that imbalanced. terrans just had to build more turrets, find ways to get around muta harass (flash's 4 rax +1 aggression). thats the beauty of BW, just one reason i stick around for BW and not sc2. too much balance whining in sc2. people in BW thought things were imbalanced (tanks no less, swarms, storms, etc.) but they always adapted and made things that countered those imbalanced things to make them balanced.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
flashimba
Profile Joined May 2011
225 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-13 09:49:20
January 13 2013 09:49 GMT
#9
Why these guys complaining about map imbalance when EG chose the player and race to go up against Hydra/Zerg?

Stay classy SC2 fans.
dongmydrum
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States139 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-14 05:38:35
January 14 2013 05:36 GMT
#10
Completely agree.

People need to chill out a little bit. We've seen these new maps used for only a few days and we are already crying "imba"? Remeber when Yellow got bunker rushed three times by Boxer and said that there is no counter to that strategy? Guess what, there came this new zerg called "julyzerg" and he destroyed the crap out of Boxer and his strat the following season (or maybe the one after cant remember off the top of my head). Of course even BW couldn't incorporate full island maps properly (P raped Z too hard) and had to settle with semi-island maps but its just way to early to say a certain map favors a certain race. Meanwhile, just enjoy the meta game on those maps because that's whats so special about proleague. Teams finding innovative ways to snipe the opposing team's ace and preparing their ace for any unorthodox strategies/shenanigans their opponent may do
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
January 14 2013 06:41 GMT
#11
On January 14 2013 14:36 dongmydrum wrote:
Completely agree.

People need to chill out a little bit. We've seen these new maps used for only a few days and we are already crying "imba"? Remeber when Yellow got bunker rushed three times by Boxer and said that there is no counter to that strategy? Guess what, there came this new zerg called "julyzerg" and he destroyed the crap out of Boxer and his strat the following season (or maybe the one after cant remember off the top of my head). Of course even BW couldn't incorporate full island maps properly (P raped Z too hard) and had to settle with semi-island maps but its just way to early to say a certain map favors a certain race. Meanwhile, just enjoy the meta game on those maps because that's whats so special about proleague. Teams finding innovative ways to snipe the opposing team's ace and preparing their ace for any unorthodox strategies/shenanigans their opponent may do


Technically a lot of these maps were imported over from BW so it wasn't really a few days.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 23m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 132
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 4554
Rain 3153
Horang2 1105
Shuttle 558
Larva 463
Mini 433
Hyuk 423
Stork 353
actioN 274
ZerO 264
[ Show more ]
Leta 197
Mong 178
EffOrt 150
Soma 136
Zeus 120
Nal_rA 96
Hyun 95
ggaemo 87
Rush 79
JulyZerg 72
Light 71
910 71
Killer 69
hero 49
zelot 34
Mind 33
Sharp 33
Free 22
Terrorterran 18
soO 18
Sexy 18
scan(afreeca) 16
Noble 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
Sacsri 10
Bale 9
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm108
XcaliburYe107
ODPixel92
League of Legends
C9.Mang0449
JimRising 445
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1829
shoxiejesuss803
allub230
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King95
Other Games
summit1g7548
ceh9596
Pyrionflax273
Fuzer 176
ZerO(Twitch)10
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3084
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2311
• Lourlo1090
• Stunt519
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Invitational
1h 23m
PiGosaur Cup
14h 23m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 1h
The PondCast
1d 23h
OSC
2 days
OSC
3 days
All Star Teams
3 days
INnoVation vs soO
sOs vs Scarlett
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
All Star Teams
4 days
MMA vs DongRaeGu
Rogue vs Oliveira
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-12
Big Gabe Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.