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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/05gVb.jpg) Adam Sandler and Jack Nicholson both just finished some very brutal ladder sessions.
Starcraft attracts a lot of very competitive people. Maybe competitive people are more inclined to play the game because they love the challenge of a very difficult game. Or maybe with all the 4gates, 6gates, 6pools, 10pools, 11/11 raxes, 1/1/1's, DT rushes, roach rushes, 1-base colossus rushes, and everything else hiding in the corners of the game waiting to kill you, the only people who would ever take that kind of mental punishment and keep coming back are people who are addicted to winning.
In any case, if you meet a random person on ladder, there's an excellent chance they're a very competitive person. They're playing the game for the same reason you probably are: they love winning. They're willing to mentally invest in the game to a degree that most of the population couldn't muster, and they're happiness in the next half hour or so is significantly affected by the success or failure of their play in this game.
And that means that as much as they love winning, they probably also hate losing. A lot. Losing is a massive mental threat at all times, able at any time to wreck your state of mind. In fact there's a significant number of people who love Starcraft 2, and want to get good at it, and have time to play a lot, but don't out of fear of losing. Some of them got a league promotion, then quit playing, and now they're scared to play again because they know they're out of practice and they don't want to be demoted again. If you don't believe me, type "ladder anxiety" into that search bar at the top right and see just how many threads come up.
Just in case you've never experienced a really tough loss before, or you don't feel the same intensity of negative emotion when you lose like some people take a moment to consider their state of mind when they lose the game. They mustered the courage to hit that find match button, which means they mentally committed to putting everything they've got into winning the upcoming game. They put their best strategy into play, microed their heart out, made the best decisions they could as the game developed. Their body filled with adrenaline over the course of the match, agitating their nervous system and intensifying everything they experienced. And then despite everything they could muster, they lost. They failed. The absolute best skills they could muster still weren't up to the task. And at the moment that it becomes clear the game is unwinnable, their mind is suddenly forced to come to terms with that shortcoming.
Of course, not everybody feels that way after a loss. Sometimes they didn't invest everything in the match; maybe they're testing and refining a new build, or maybe they're just messing around Funday Monday style and expecting to lose, or maybe they're just incredibly good-natured about losing. Thorzain is one of my favorite progamers, among other reasons because when I watch his stream, he seems almost completely unfazed by losses. After a brutal loss, he'll just state factually "I should have checked for an expansion, I would have seen that blink all-in coming" or "Man, I thought I had really perfected my response to baneling busts. I guess I still need to work on that."
But as the victor in this game, it's very difficult to know what state of mind your opponent is in. Maybe they're Thorzain, and they're already watching the replay to see what they could have done differently. Or maybe they're pulling their hair out, and on the verge of smashing their new mechanical keyboard into the corner of their desk.
I'm writing this wall of text to reinforce two pieces of wisdom that you are probably already familiar with, because even though you've heard them before, you may not have heard a justification for the advice; it was probably just asserted. And I wanted to give whatever miniscule number of people actually bother to read my blog a justification for these pieces of wisdom, with proper context included.
-When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that. As for the other piece of advice:
-When you win a game, be respectful to your opponent. Don't type gg before he does to get him to leave the game. Don't message him after the game, even if what you want to say is totally innocent. If he types gg and leaves the game before you can respond, you could message him to say gg, but it's probably best if you don't. If he did some bullshit cheesy strat, and put you way behind, but in an epic struggle of titans you finally pulled it back and defeated him against all odds, don't insult his skill. Don't brag about your incredible comeback. Don't say "wow that was such an epic game! that was awesome!" As a matter of fact, just shut the hell up.
Because maybe he's good at dealing with losses and isn't even slightly upset. Maybe he's five hours into a ladder session and he barely even responds to wins or losses before hitting find match again. But he could also be raging harder than you could imagine right at this moment, in which case you're the absolute last person he wants to hear from right now. And since you don't know what state of mind he's in right now, just don't say anything. If he wants to talk to you, he can message you just as easily as you can message him. Otherwise, messaging him can pretty much only do harm.
And if you think he's lost the game but he hasn't gg'd yet, just shut the fuck up and play out the game. Because I don't care if he's "wasting your time." If he really has lost, and he just hasn't gg'd yet, then he's probably sitting back from his computer and taking a moment to cope with the loss, in which case you can wait 15 seconds to let him deal with the loss. Otherwise he presumably thinks he can still win the game, in which case he may know something you don't, and the game isn't actually over yet. So either the game really is over and you're an asshole who's aggravating your opponent's mental state to try to save yourself a minute at most, or the game isn't actually over and you're simply wrong (and still probably an asshole).
I'm not totally sure what typing out this blog will accomplish. If you have trouble dealing with losses on ladder, I hope my advice helps. But mostly I'm posting this because there always seems to be a lot of people that simply don't understand why prematurely gg'ing is so rude, or why they shouldn't message their opponent after the game. And if you know just how much damage you could be doing, and you do it anyway, then + Show Spoiler +you understand the consequences of your actions. But a lot of people BM in this manner simply because they don't seem to understand why what they're doing is bad.
So if you didn't understand before, hopefully now you do. and for the majority of TL that would never think of BMing, <3's to you, and I sincerely hope you didn't find my blog to be a waste of time!
  
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It's true, being polite on ladder takes off some of the stress. I find it easier to think 'oh, he was a good player, so I lost' rather than 'jesus christ what a broken fucking game stupid newbie imba'. At worst, bitch about the opponent to your friends later rather than to the opponent directly.
I've actually made some of my better Bnet friends out of random ladder games.
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The only time I don't gg after a loss is when people are bm to me during the game, because I'm too busy punching a pillow or some shit, but for the most part I agree with you. Pming someone after the game is dickish and unnecessary.
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Thanks for this. I'm not BM by any means, but I occasionally PM my opponent with advice for how he could have done better, and only now do I realise how much that could piss people off. Just because I wouldn't mind if someone did that to me doesn't make everyone else the same. I'll stop from now on.
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I never GG if it's not a good game.
and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not.
less about getting those units fungal'd or not.
less about getting the FFs down or not.
less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit.
I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent.
I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle
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Its not necessary to type gg. There are many other multiplayer games where people don't type gg, and aren't vilified for it or considered "bad mannered". As far as I know, typing "gg" is a unique phenomenon, which originally didn't even exist in Starcraft 1 for a while until it was introduced by someone and it caught on.
There is one thing I wish people would recognize. There is a difference between something being a voluntary pleasantry, and something being compulsory. I feel like typing "gg" has become so ubiquitous, that people feel almost forced to type it, otherwise they're seen as rude or bad mannered. This is totally illogical...what people are effectively saying is:
"If you're not nice to me, then you're a bad person". Or
"If you're not nice to me when you lose, then you're obviously a very angry person who can't control his emotions"
Now it is nice to hear someone type gg, at least I can understand how it might be nice. But these days if I were playing I wouldn't feel anything, because I know that gg is practically a compulsory and robotic thing that everyone types without any additional interaction (same with "glhf"). It takes next to no effort to type it in and then immediately leave before I have time to respond.
If you truly want to be courteous, then do things differently. Try typing in "gg" in capital letters to show that you meant it, or add in some quirky difference like a love sign. Otherwise its robotic and meaningless, at least it is to me, when you hear it hundreds of times without any other interaction.
If people don't type it, then remember it doesn't mean they "rage quit" or are "disrespectful". Its just a game, not a competitive show match. People don't have to salute your skill, they are allowed to play just because they enjoy the game and aren't interested in being nice to you. That is perfectly fine, and shouldn't be the cause of any contempt, no matter how small.
I don't think the OP is necessarily saying these things, but I thought since we're on the subject of courtesy, I may as well add in this element. Be courteous to those who couldn't care less for typing "gg" or "glhf". And by be courteous, all I mean is, either leave them alone or say something nice, just as long as you aren't offended by them.
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On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote:
I never GG if it's not a good game.
and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not.
less about getting those units fungal'd or not.
less about getting the FFs down or not.
less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit.
I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent.
I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle
Seriously reread thisOn December 09 2012 23:35 ChristianS wrote:
-When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that.
If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
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On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote:
I never GG if it's not a good game.
I've heard this position a few times. I guess it makes sense, if you take gg to mean literally that the game was good as a factual statement. I think of it more as that your opponent played a good game, rather than that it was a good game, because just stating that the game was good at the end of every game a) isn't always true, and b)is a weird thing to randomly state anyway.
If you don't have problems with ladder rage, though, then not gg'ing isn't such a big deal. Your opponent just won the game, so he probably isn't too upset about it. But it really does help deal with ladder rage. And if you can deal with ladder rage more effectively, then ladder anxiety is reduced because the thought of losing isn't so scary
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This thread's silly. The people with "ladder anxiety" are, in general, NOT competitive people or competitive players but casuals inhabiting the lowest leagues.
Losing is fine.
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On December 10 2012 01:26 y0su wrote:
Seriously reread this
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If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Are you actually trying to push someone away from Starcraft 2 because they don't say gg every game? That's what it reads like, and that would count as being a douche.
Being "well-mannered" means nothing if you're a douche. Like the people who demand gg's after games, or start yelling at you because you didn't say gl hf at the start. You're not entitled to anything from your opponent. It's even fine for someone to entirely ignore any attempt at communication - they're just as entitled to not talk to you as you are to try talking to them.
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When i played a lot SC2, i simply didn't say anything.
If the game is over and i lost, i leave the game.
If the game is over and my opponent ggs and just waits, i still don't care to respond.
I live by the golden rule, "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself."
I don't gain anything from typing gg and i don't gain anything from my opponent typing gg. To me, it's nice if people want to write it and props to people who do.
But when i laddered, it was just to play, not to socialize.
Not saying anything also means that i'm not whining about balance, i don't complain if i get cheesed, i accept if i lost fully and i enjoy it when i win.
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On December 10 2012 02:51 Scholera wrote:
This thread's silly. The people with "ladder anxiety" are, in general, NOT competitive people or competitive players but casuals inhabiting the lowest leagues.
Losing is fine.
Um, no, not really. Tons of people I get matched against talk about having "ladder anxiety" (myself included), and I'm in diamond. I know that diamond sounds nooby to people because it's TL and we're elitists, but if you're diamond, you're better than 85% of people who play the game in your region, which is hardly "casual" for a game as difficult as SC2.
edit: actually it's probably less than 85% since I'm sure a lot of the really low league people are semi-inactives or smurfs or people who mostly only play team or whatnot, I'm not exactly sure how SC2ranks pulls its data together, but I still think that if you're diamond and didn't have previous RTS experience that meant you came in with strong mechanics or something, any gaming community other than TL would consider you "competitive" or "hardcore" for the amount of work you have to put in to get there
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This was such a great read. Your post echos my thoughts about the competitive nature of the game exactly. Both players are coming from the same point, trying to reach the same goals. Very eloquently put in the first few paragraphs. You made me feel real sympathy for my opponents. As I was reading I remembered some of the games I played today and thought "hmm yeah I could have been more good mannered there." What this post shows though is that other players are not only opponents but fellow competitors. We all partake in this mentality of winning.
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On December 10 2012 04:04 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 01:26 y0su wrote:
Seriously reread this
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If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Are you actually trying to push someone away from Starcraft 2 because they don't say gg every game? That's what it reads like, and that would count as being a douche. Being "well-mannered" means nothing if you're a douche. Like the people who demand gg's after games, or start yelling at you because you didn't say gl hf at the start. You're not entitled to anything from your opponent. It's even fine for someone to entirely ignore any attempt at communication - they're just as entitled to not talk to you as you are to try talking to them.
I have to agree. There've been countless times where people come to me after a game almost demanding that I say gg. If I dont think it was a good game, I'm not going to say so. The people who say gg in the game and try to tell me how badly I played afterwards are even worse. I've resorted to muting everyone I play against, just because I'd rather not talk to such people.
I don't understand what's wrong with not saying anything at all. Demanding that others try to be courteous to acknowledge someone else's superiority doesnt seem to make the environment any better.
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Nice read, but I disagree with not chatting in case you won.
I had a few times I didn't gg, but if they'd just chat me gg, I wouldn't take it the wrong way. If anything, I'd feel bad about not gg'ing myself
Actually, I've made a few friends chatting with 'em after a lost game. Of course, bad manners, insults, or just scoffing at their skill doesn't do much. But just discussing it was a close game, or discussing strategy, is a great way to improve your game and accept up your loss.
Hey, when I had close games, I would hardly rage, even more if the other guy would chat me up saying it was indeed pretty close. The negativity that comes with losing a game involves asserting your skill way lower than where it is. A close game means that your skill game-wise wasn't as bad and that a few things would have helped you on your way to victory.
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My analogy to not gging after a game of SC2 is the following.
Walk into a park's tennis court as a solo player, find that there is another person occupying it. While you do not know this person, he is a player, and both of you agree to play a match. After match is over, its natural to display sportsmanship by shaking hands. Not gging is walking away without shaking hands. Rude much.
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Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job.
The OP is pretty good overall, but here is where I have to disagree. The meaning of doing a "good job" is not entirely dependent upon the outcome of the game. I've seen people do a truly horrible job and win. You listed some of the reasons this could occur. Some players don't deserve the respect of a gg.
4/5 from me.
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Yea this has been discussed a million times but gging is not necessary. I never cared when people didn't say it to me. Actually I probably prefer when people don't say it cause there are assholes that say it then stay in the game for 5 more minutes.
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On December 10 2012 07:27 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. The OP is pretty good overall, but here is where I have to disagree. The meaning of doing a "good job" is not entirely dependent upon the outcome of the game. I've seen people do a truly horrible job and win. You listed some of the reasons this could occur. Some players don't deserve the respect of a gg. 4/5 from me.
Certainly he might not be a better player than you. He might not even be a good player. By "good job" I just mean that the task at hand was winning, and he got it done. That means he must have been doing something right, even if that thing was a bullshit cheese or a greedy metagame or abuse of an OP unit or strategy.
I won't say he's a good player, because objectively speaking, most of the people on the ladder are incredibly shitty. I'm in diamond, and I can say that even though I'm proud to have progressed from bronze to diamond, and I've come a long way, diamond players are still pretty bad at the game in terms of macroing consistently, carrying out a build order effectively, making decent decisions under pressure, etc.
So even if he won on a bullshit immortal sentry all-in, and GSL zergs can't hold that build so how should you be able to, etc. etc. you should still gg. He found a good strategy, and he executed it effectively enough to pull out a win against you. That being the end goal of a competitive game, all your other criticisms are perhaps true, but ultimately insignificant.
On December 10 2012 05:40 Ydriel wrote:
Nice read, but I disagree with not chatting in case you won.
I had a few times I didn't gg, but if they'd just chat me gg, I wouldn't take it the wrong way. If anything, I'd feel bad about not gg'ing myself
Actually, I've made a few friends chatting with 'em after a lost game. Of course, bad manners, insults, or just scoffing at their skill doesn't do much. But just discussing it was a close game, or discussing strategy, is a great way to improve your game and accept up your loss.
Hey, when I had close games, I would hardly rage, even more if the other guy would chat me up saying it was indeed pretty close. The negativity that comes with losing a game involves asserting your skill way lower than where it is. A close game means that your skill game-wise wasn't as bad and that a few things would have helped you on your way to victory.
Luckily it sounds like you're not someone who takes losses especially badly. And that being the case, I'm glad some matches worked out for you. That said, know that there are a lot of people that have a lot more trouble dealing with a loss, and a message from the opponent, whether it's an insult to their skill or an insult to their mother or a comment on the weather, can really only do harm. If the message is "I'm so good at this game and you are so bad compared to me" that obviously pisses them off, but on the other hand if the message is something like "oh my god I'm so lucky you didn't scout that proxy, I would have been so dead" that's likely to piss them off, too.
On December 10 2012 02:51 Scholera wrote:
This thread's silly. The people with "ladder anxiety" are, in general, NOT competitive people or competitive players but casuals inhabiting the lowest leagues.
Losing is fine.
It's not a thread, it's a blog. Also, as someone has pointed out, ladder anxiety is most definitely not limited to non-competitive people. Ladder anxiety stems from fear of losing, and fear of losing comes from the experience of taking losses really hard. If you're not especially competitive, you might quit the game, but you probably don't quit because of ladder anxiety. It probably is more common in lower leagues, but that's just because people with ladder anxiety obviously don't play as much, and if they don't play as much, they won't be as good at the game. Doesn't mean they're casuals, and doesn't mean they're not competitive.
On December 10 2012 04:04 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 01:26 y0su wrote:
Seriously reread this
...
If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Are you actually trying to push someone away from Starcraft 2 because they don't say gg every game? That's what it reads like, and that would count as being a douche. Being "well-mannered" means nothing if you're a douche. Like the people who demand gg's after games, or start yelling at you because you didn't say gl hf at the start. You're not entitled to anything from your opponent. It's even fine for someone to entirely ignore any attempt at communication - they're just as entitled to not talk to you as you are to try talking to them.
Obviously in Starcraft, as in the rest of life, not being a douche is also courteous policy even though I didn't mention it. And most certainly like with all manners, I think that you should focus on being courteous yourself. If someone else doesn't type gl hf that really shouldn't bother you, and if they don't gg when they lose I still maintain that you shouldn't say anything at all.
That said I don't think he was saying people who don't gg should quit Starcraft. The post he quoted complained about a lot of game elements in SC2 that he thought were making it so very few "good games" were produced. He was saying if he really hates SC2 so much, why does he continue playing? I'd agree that saying someone should quit Starcraft if they don't gg is totally out of line, but I also don't think anyone in this thread has taken that position.
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On December 10 2012 01:26 y0su wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 01:08 ETisME wrote:
I never GG if it's not a good game.
and sadly SC2 doesn't produce much good games. It's not that I don't like the game but it doesn't produce good games very often. I didn't notice this until I played around 50 games in Hots, where I had some really FUN game even when I lost.
There are so much less about whether the emp hit or not.
less about getting those units fungal'd or not.
less about getting the FFs down or not.
less about landing that vortex etc
I was having a blast in the beta until today when I random'd zerg against some protoss who used immortal sentry all in. (I tell my race when I random) and right away, the game was so very boring, it's almost like watching him play the game of landing forcefield correctly
oh i went off topic quite a bit.
I think a little bit of rage is fine. as long as you aren't bm about the opponent.
I rarely rage but sometimes when I lose because I didn't get the emp/fungal/storm off in a 200/200 ball dance and lose, i rage.
I really hate how the game is so decisive on landing that one spell in the 200/200 ball battle Seriously reread this Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 23:35 ChristianS wrote:
-When you lose a game, always type gg or something equivalent. Always. Because everyone loses games; that's how you get better. But in order to improve, you need to accept that you lost and they won. Fair and square. Don't blame a build order loss. Don't complain about balance. Don't swear at them for their bullshit cheese, or their incredibly greedy opening, or their totally luck-based play.
Because maybe it was a build order loss. And maybe their race is completely and totally imbalanced. And maybe that build really was bullshit cheese, or stupidly greedy, or completely and totally luck-based. But none of that changes the fact that your job as the player is to find a way to win. You failed; he succeeded. And all of those other excuses are because you don't want to accept those facts. And I swear to you from a great deal of personal experience that losing is a hell of a lot less painful if you just accept it. Don't make excuses; just accept it. Typing gg is a way of forcing yourself to acknowledge that your opponent did, in fact, do a good job. He pulled off a win, based on his own merit, and you need to recognize that. If you really don't like an aspect of the game, decide if it's worth playing or not... If you keep playing, at least treat your fellow SC2 brethren with some respect.
Winning doesn't make the game good, nor losing makes a game crap.
GG = Good game.
it's not disrespectful if I don't gg to a game that I don't find it was good.
If for example I kill off all my banelings manually by mistake and let him roll me over, should I really say gg him? Doesn't that seem a bit offensive to both of us?
Or in a more realistic example, if we got to late game TvP and because of his network being a bit better than me, I missed the emp and he just roll'd me in the ball battle, is that a 'good game'?
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