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The IPL5 Finals were good times in Vegas. I got to see a bunch of friends, check out the city, and even watch a few games (I don't usually have the opportunity to sit down and watch games, because I'm working in one capacity or the other, doing interviews, arranging get togethers, etc...) I even made a little money off of roulette with my buds, Kibbs and Gen (Livinpink). This post is not about IPL5 though. This post is about some misconceptions that have been brought to my attention about girls in esports, along with questions on how to prevent a bad reputation.
Edit: Thanks for the suggestions to those who posted replies. A few of you summed it up well with "it's like high school" ~ I choose to ignore a lot of crap, but this particular subject was bugging me so I felt I had to blog about it. I definitely don't feel like a "victim" but I know that some of the girls do, and I'm looking for constructive feedback. Thanks.
Now, I can't speak for all the other girls out there, but I can speak for myself and my close friends. There is a notion that all girls who hang out with the players/casters/etc... at events, are sleeping around. Why? Because that's what it LOOKS like? Because we like to believe what we don't know? Because humans enjoy drama? Wtf?
Keep these things in mind when reading:
-Not all the same people go to every event.
-Not all the same people work for the same organizations all the time since they're contracted.
-Some people go to enjoy the event, and have to get their own accommodations.
-Rooms are OFTEN split between many people, and are co-ed.
-Sometimes people travel together if they are from the same region.
-There are still more guys than girls in the community.
I'm a bit salty, and here's why: Over the weekend, at a get-together, a [untrue] rumor regarding the last tournament accommodations, was started about me and one of my guy friends who is a name in the community. It was based solely that we shared a hotel suite (with other people). That's not so bad right? If it had stopped there, and one of us was there to defend the actual truth, then no, it would not have been so bad, but here's where it went further: My other friend, who told me about this rumor, was staying with me on this particular trip (in a room with three other people), and was at the get-together where the aforementioned rumor originated. He got questioned if I was sleeping with him now too. (Too? Wtf? The first rumor wasn't true, now there's another one? Wtf wtf wtf?) I'm thankful that he defended my honour, and told the truth in that's not the case, but the people who asked him still don't believe him. So, in the eyes of THAT group of people, who were there, I'm getting a reputation for sleeping around, and I'm sure that at least one or two people in that group have told others elsewhere... Great, just the reputation I want.
By the way, I have ONE love, who I completely respect and cherish, and I have absolutely NO desire to 'get with' anyone else at events (or anywhere).
If there's anything I really REALLY despise, it's when I get accused of stuff that isn't true. MOSTLY because I've always made a point to NOT do stuff like that, NOT sleep around, NOT do drugs, and NOT to be "that girl" who uses guys for popularity by association.
These accusations and rumors have been the case for a few of my close friends as well, and I know that they aren’t true, because I KNOW the girls with whom I'm good friends.
Here's our dilemma: Look at the esports community. Though slowly balancing out, it's still comprised of a mostly male population. We girls, who enjoy gaming and watching games, we girls who are on teams, conduct interviews, produce community-related content, and so on, often find it difficult to make friends who are females who share similar interests AND can get to events, so we naturally befriend guys, travel with guys, hang out with guys, and often share room costs with guy friends. I know it's really hard to believe that a girl and guy can hang out without lusting after each other, but in my case, as well as my friends' cases, that's the reality. Of course, only WE know for sure what we are doing and not doing, since it's like the tree-making-a-sound-in-the-empty-forest analogy, but I'm pretty disgusted with the assumptions that “if she's hanging out with him, she must be sleeping with him (or at least leading him to believe she will)”. ← personally, my friends are mostly brother-zoned, which is even 'worse' than friend-zoned, and they know they're brother-zoned.
The Questions: I love this community, and I love my roles in it as a community manager / coordinator / interviewer / etc... , but I really am disgusted by untrue rumors. So, ladies and gentlemen, what do we girls do? Do we segregate ourselves from our friends, and somehow make money appear in our bank accounts to pay full price for private hotel rooms (because normally there are several people splitting the cost of hotels so they can ALL enjoy the event inexpensively, and yes, they are usually co-ed rooms)? Should we just quit attending events all together? HOW do we girls go about proving that we aren't the 'esports hos' people make us out to be? Especially those of us who have boyfriends, fiancees, significant others who we love- who can't be present at the event? What about the single girls who aren't 'looking'? What CAN we do to prove we're not 'that girl' that we get rumored to be?
PS Before the comments on dresses begin to flow, some of us just LIKE dressing up.
  
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Rets girlfriend (ex maybe?) probably just ruined it for you other girls by actually sleeping around with guys at tournaments  I definitely don't think you or any other girl are sluts that sleep with everyone in esports lol. But I do think that a lot of girls in esports are only in their positions because they are girls. Not that they aren't good at their job, but they get extra attention from the community because they are a girl and that extra attention makes it easier for them to be picked up by a team or other organization.
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eSports really is like high school.
Not much you can do except keep your head up and keep doing what you love. In time, people get to know who you are and realize that a bunch of people talk a lot.
Even if there was a great deal of girls in eSports, many would still be subjected to this kind of treatment.
So forget everyone else. If people treat you different or don't give you the proper chance, then they're the idiots and it's their loss. Yea, the process sucks and ultimately you're left as the victim, but the best you can do is to not let it get to you.
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Brandi Ily long time and stuff, but here's a reality check.
Facts:
-People lie.
-People like to twist stories.
-Guys like to boast about things and knowing people, they may lie about said things.
-In a community where males are predominantly spending most of their time indoors because they're playing video games (which there's nothing wrong with, at all. As long as you take some Vitamin D supplements, cause you need that stuff....and it comes from the sun otherwise), women will always be looked at primarily as an option to get with a girl who shares your interests.
So, of course ludicrous rumors will come out here and again. People will warp or lie to make themselves sound more interesting or look "better" in the eyes of others. As LittleAtari said, eSports is like high school. Everyone wants to know about everyone, all the rumours, all the news, all the stuff happening.
If you think of a eSports event as a highschool party, you get to see all these cool little connections and similarities. A bunch of stuff usually happens, and if something didn't happen things are speculated about etc.
As for what you can do Brandi, be forward about shit yo. Take yourself out of the game, say you have a boyfriend, say you're not looking for anyone, take it to the extreme and say you're only into girls.
If you stop wearing dresses though I will be a sad man =(
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lol why care what some 80 IQ caveman thinks about you? :D
your friends know who you really are, there is not enough time to worry about the other 7 billion people 
"Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people."
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You care too much about your reputation, it sounds like something similar to why pros and casters really dont post on the forums; there's too much shit everywhere.
And if it makes you feel better, it's probally all just an indication that they wish you did so, so they had a chance at you.
All in all you can sum my "advice" or "opinion" to rather than growing thicker skin, you shouldnt care that much about your reputation as long as yours friends (read: people you care about) know what is really up
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A big bunch of guys in esports are nerds of the kind "socially akward with zero experience with women", one can't do much else than expect them to come up with dumb shit like this. Don't let it get to you, the people you care about won't think less of you because some people have delusions about what you do.
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Can someone explain what this is in reference to?
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I just hope the majority of people hearing these rumours are smart enough not to believe everything that's said. If they aren't; I mainly just feel sorry for them. There's more interesting things to discuss than who slept with who and stuff like that... you're spending your time and thought on those things, and I think most people recognize that. Keep doing what you do!
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Not a problem with Esports, it is a problem of mankind.
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Maybe I'm not following the scene closely enough, but what the heck is this even about?
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On December 05 2012 21:15 synapse wrote:
Maybe I'm not following the scene closely enough, but what the heck is this even about?
People who attend events in North America and work with behind the scenes stuff, I guess? It just seems like a long rant that can be TL;DR'd as " Some people were saying untrue things about me because I'm a girl, I don't like it, please stop. "
Doesn't affect the part of the scene most people care about, which is the games and the players. I don't have any idea who this person is although she says she does media coverage and interviews, maybe I'm not paying close enough attention either.
I mean, there's this talk about a " reputation " and such but who are these people who are talking shit and why are they important? Just seems like highschool drama between fans of the game and NA semi-pros.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Yeah post nailed it on the head;
E-Sports is turning into a fucking high school bitch-a-thon. Such a joke that when "girls/women" get involved into a community all of a sudden there is a "she slept with him" "he slept with her" rumours throwing around and generally bitchiness hits the scene.
Ask yourself this, if you did not go to the events, would these rumours have started....
Bottom line for me is, girls bring trouble, specially to a scene where generally most of the males there are not experienced with the way this worked in high school as they were the outsiders to this game. The one were rumours pop up everyday at school of "omg guess what, x slept with y last night" etcetc and its spiralling out of control and causing people 1. to judge and 2. get emotional.
My final point,
Ask yourself this, is this good for the "e-sports" scene, to have girls bitching (or even guys) about who has slept with who, and not talking about SC2, or LOL/DOTA/COD/HALO etcetc?
On December 05 2012 21:49 khaydarin9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 18:15 aike wrote:Rets girlfriend (ex maybe?) probably just ruined it for you other girls by actually sleeping around with guys at tournaments I definitely don't think you or any other girl are sluts that sleep with everyone in esports lol. But I do think that a lot of girls in esports are only in their positions because they are girls. Not that they aren't good at their job, but they get extra attention from the community because they are a girl and that extra attention makes it easier for them to be picked up by a team or other organization. Unfortunately, this is the mindset that seems to perpetuate the problem: people refuse to respect girls in the community because they think they have only gotten to where they are by virtue of being female -> girls in the community get trash talked -> community gains reputation for being hostile towards girls -> fewer girls wanting to make their presence in the community -> girls become a novelty because of their rarity. I guess I think that too much of a deal is always being made out of who is perceived to "deserve" what, but that's a whole dissertation in itself. I don't see why, if a team signs a new player, we can't just be excited for that player, instead of poking at issues of "does he/she deserve it?" or "there are so many other people who are more deserving [for whatever reason]". There's too much delegitimising of people's achievements made under the banner of "fairness" that actually doesn't achieve anything except to be malicious.
But...No one knew anything about the shit that was just wrote in this blog..the people who knew about this were the people "involved" in the bitching AT the event. I wouldn't even go as far as saying it was the crowd, i'd say it was more like the crew of IPL5 and the friends of the crew? i guess, along with the "press" side of it.
I look at it as the "inner circle" of E-Sports who tarnish the scene. We just finally got rid of Jessica and her control powers of SlayerS i don't want more shit like this coming out because girls are bitchy and nerds don't know how to act socially around girls!
Also what happend to theres no smoke without fire.....
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On December 05 2012 18:15 aike wrote:Rets girlfriend (ex maybe?) probably just ruined it for you other girls by actually sleeping around with guys at tournaments I definitely don't think you or any other girl are sluts that sleep with everyone in esports lol. But I do think that a lot of girls in esports are only in their positions because they are girls. Not that they aren't good at their job, but they get extra attention from the community because they are a girl and that extra attention makes it easier for them to be picked up by a team or other organization.
Unfortunately, this is the mindset that seems to perpetuate the problem: people refuse to respect girls in the community because they think they have only gotten to where they are by virtue of being female -> girls in the community get trash talked -> community gains reputation for being hostile towards girls -> fewer girls wanting to make their presence in the community -> girls become a novelty because of their rarity. I guess I think that too much of a deal is always being made out of who is perceived to "deserve" what, but that's a whole dissertation in itself. I don't see why, if a team signs a new player, we can't just be excited for that player, instead of poking at issues of "does he/she deserve it?" or "there are so many other people who are more deserving [for whatever reason]". There's too much delegitimising of people's achievements made under the banner of "fairness" that actually doesn't achieve anything except to be malicious.
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The question you should ask yourself is not " Why do morons think I am a slut ? " but " Why do I care about what people think of my sexuality ? ". You cannot control what people will say, but you can control what you think about yourself.
Aside from that you have no idea how this was common a few years ago with between the CS Men and Women community. And it happens in a whole lot of different domain, it's just a consequence of social interactions; some people are jealous and envious, other misunderstands the situation, while many just love gossips because it brings everyone closer.
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Rumors are never started without some type of reason. I'm not saying such things are justified, but people start putting pieces together, through:
- What style the girl has in terms of fashion, whether gothic, geek, elegant, slutty, etc...
- Who she hangs out with at said event, and how often they're seen together
- The room and occupants of said room
- The actions and perhaps flirtatious interactions with other males
- Activities partaken by the girl, whether through alcohol, parties, bars, etc...
Now, as I said, it's not exactly justified, but someone picked up on something you were doing/have done/will continue to do at events, and that's how it started. Or it could be that some guy just lied and it went from there.
How do you avoid this situation in the future? Eliminating diversity is not really something I'm for, so not attending doesn't really solve anything. But perhaps restraint should be had at events, such as avoiding bad situations involving alcohol, or people you've heard gossip regarding, as they are probably partaking in it as well.
And Otolia brings up a good point, because in the Canadian scene, this was also true for the CS guys and girls. The difference being that a lot of it was true, and I can personally attest to that. Seeing people at events brings its own set of feelings and emotions, especially in terms of people that share the same hobby, passion, time and space that you do. Many a relationship occurred in the scene, to the point where relationships were starting, players of both sexes were dating each other, some guys and girls were cheating on their regular spouses at events with players.
I would be hard-pressed to believe that this isn't still happening at SC2, LoL, or any other events. People are who they are, and to be honest, I don't think I've ever met a girl who wasn't "that girl." They can try to pretty it up however they want, but the right conditions eliminate any nice notion I've ever had regarding the situation.
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On December 05 2012 18:15 aike wrote:Rets girlfriend (ex maybe?) probably just ruined it for you other girls by actually sleeping around with guys at tournaments I definitely don't think you or any other girl are sluts that sleep with everyone in esports lol. But I do think that a lot of girls in esports are only in their positions because they are girls. Not that they aren't good at their job, but they get extra attention from the community because they are a girl and that extra attention makes it easier for them to be picked up by a team or other organization.
WTF? I've never heard of this. Any source?
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
On December 05 2012 22:43 Azera wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 18:15 aike wrote:Rets girlfriend (ex maybe?) probably just ruined it for you other girls by actually sleeping around with guys at tournaments I definitely don't think you or any other girl are sluts that sleep with everyone in esports lol. But I do think that a lot of girls in esports are only in their positions because they are girls. Not that they aren't good at their job, but they get extra attention from the community because they are a girl and that extra attention makes it easier for them to be picked up by a team or other organization. WTF? I've never heard of this. Any source?
Those threads as u can imagine got shutdown rather fast on TL, try a reddit search (not sure how reddit works, as i don't use it)
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On December 05 2012 22:38 divito wrote:
Rumors are never started without some type of reason. I'm not saying such things are justified, but people start putting pieces together, through:
- What style the girl has in terms of fashion, whether gothic, geek, elegant, slutty, etc...
- Who she hangs out with at said event, and how often they're seen together
- The room and occupants of said room
- The actions and perhaps flirtatious interactions with other males
- Activities partaken by the girl, whether through alcohol, parties, bars, etc...
This is some obvious "blaming the victim" going on. Honestly, unless you're downright retarded, how someone dresses, who they hang out with and if they drink alcohol should have no bearing. Unless you know someone sleeps around, you have no right to claim they do. It's downright lying and delusion on the part of the person making shit up.
"Man, a girl got raped in my neighbourhood yesterday."
"What! That's terrible! What were she wearing?"
"A dress."
"Oh well that says it all, she's obviously a slut and enjoyed it".
Hyperbole, yes, but the basic idea is the same.
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It definitely sucks, but are you really surprised? It is a community of man-children. You will have to unfortunately deal with idiots all the time, and because of your gender the rumours will be more sexual in nature (it is definitely sexual harassment). If you know their boss you can get them in trouble a little, but otherwise you just need to keep your chin up and act yourself. If someone brings it up to your face, then you can give them a good yelling at.
Well, you certainly have the right to complain, and it's good to raise awareness of this in the community. If you even know their IDs, you can post them like we do with hackers. Then people can give them stink eye at every event they go to (of course someone is bound to be falsely accused, so maybe this is a shitty solution). I think if you distanced yourself a little from this issue and talked from a more objective standpoint about what is going on, rather than centralizing yourself and your friends as the victims, this might get even more attention. But as it is people are gonna talk about it as if it's only your problem and say "well that sucks!" instead of treating it like a real issue. I don't think you need to say "I make a point of not sleeping around or doing drugs" lol... if it is your personality you just don't do it, if you make a point of it, it makes it sound like its really tempting for you but you nobly don't do it... Again... Speaking in terms of if you want to raise awareness for this issue, you should write this more carefully.
glgl
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On December 05 2012 22:56 Tobberoth wrote:
This is some obvious "blaming the victim" going on. Honestly, unless you're downright retarded, how someone dresses, who they hang out with and if they drink alcohol should have no bearing. Unless you know someone sleeps around, you have no right to claim they do. It's downright lying and delusion on the part of the person making shit up.
"Man, a girl got raped in my neighbourhood yesterday."
"What! That's terrible! What were she wearing?"
"A dress."
"Oh well that says it all, she's obviously a slut and enjoyed it".
Hyperbole, yes, but the basic idea is the same.
Except for the part where I said "I'm not saying such things are justified."
I'm just pointing out how people think. A lot of people in the world will blame the victim in circumstances. There were those that blamed Mr. Bitter for being robbed, etc... People can always say how things should have been different in hindsight.
In some instances, sure, you can blame the victim. In others, you cannot reasonably blame them. And to judge this situation with this girl involved in eSports (I'm not sure what she is from, or what she does in eSports), would be silly because I know nothing of her, the situation, or the events.
All that said, all those things you mentioned, while they should "have no bearing," the sad fact is they do play a part in sizing people up, whether accurately or inaccurately. People do judge books by their covers, and do take things at face value. Where some people see a hands-on girl with a guy friend at an event as something simple and platonic, others may see as intimate affection.
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Zurich15345 Posts
Basically what you are saying is that ESPORTS events are like any other event in the world where people meet.
You really should just not care about that kind of stuff.
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Oh man "brother-zoned" is that the new meta? =P
As Chef said, if you wanted to raise awareness then you could have written this in a different way. Doesn't have to be about awareness though, if you wanted to defend yourself then that's fine.
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WTF is this post? Who the fuck cares who you are or aren't banging. Noone on TL.net that is for 100% certain. Go bang to your hearts content or don't. Either way noone ACTUALLY cares (I don't mean that in the mean way). Sorry that a few friends start roomers when you spent the night in some dudes hotel room or w/e but that shit happens outside of esports too, its just not that big of a deal. In short, go bang out with whoever you want to, keep it to yourself and ignore (or confront to them). You don't see us posting on TL cause one of our friends accused us of sleeping with someone. That's because noone would care, this applies to this post if your couldn't put that together. Close thread imo.
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I must say, I appreciate this post a lot.
Frankly, I have a whole other complicated slew of ideas to throw in with girls and gaming, super-complicated, but here's the TL;DR version: Gamers of the opposite sex. That's it. No different from us Men. Not worthy of acknowledgement, in my opinion.
Long version: This is a difficult topic to cut around in any shape or form. Simply by acknowledging that girl gamers exist sets the stage that there is something "special" about them. Like somehow they are Amazing compared to other girls. Like somehow they are more beautiful, when in reality I would rather ask 阿喜 (english name: Ash) on a date before I ever went out with morgan webb.
As said above, the fact that I mentioned females as gamers totally undermines the idea of women's rights, because in an ideal world we wouldn't need to make mention of such petty things like "OMG! It's a girl with xbox controller!" The converse argument is, "This isn't an ideal world, so we have to propagate women in gaming." Unfortunately, the latter of the two is true, in which case we still have to deal with the same juvenile scum in society that go to high schools and colleges. The psychology of some gamers is quite Freudian. One guy who used to be on skype calls all the time with Destiny and BlueTea all the time comes to mind, I won't mention his name for fear of being banned, but you all should know who he is. Another example is RatZDeezer. The main reason why he's famous is for being a Freudian douche that just likes to win games and think with his d***. That, and being bullied by Destiny as well as being a GM player. The reason why these other "juveniles" have no platform is that they have no reputations proceeding them. So, they are the lesser-heard of element of esports. The Freudian douches that run around conventions scrounging and lounging around women that are minding their own business.
I'm sorry the OP had to experience this and I apologize for the mega-rant.
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On December 05 2012 18:42 Iplaythings wrote:
You care too much about your reputation, it sounds like something similar to why pros and casters really dont post on the forums; there's too much shit everywhere.
And if it makes you feel better, it's probally all just an indication that they wish you did so, so they had a chance at you.
All in all you can sum my "advice" or "opinion" to rather than growing thicker skin, you shouldnt care that much about your reputation as long as yours friends (read: people you care about) know what is really up
This brings a good point. Some of us can't help but to care though, so how does one just switch to NOT caring?
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
^^^
Take a read at the real newspapers or magazines, look at how celeberties deal with bitchiness and rumours on a wider basis than just friends and people you can avoid in person...
Step 1;
Avoid those who "bitch"
Step 2;
Don't blog about being a victim when no one knows you are one in the first place
Step 3;
Continune to do your thing (which is bringing SC2 content from tournaments across NA)
Step 4;
Only engange with posititve comments on social media, and ignore the negativity.
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Well, this is what I mean by making it a personal issue. There are lots of obvious ways for her to deal with it on a personal level, such as just ignoring it, but that doesn't make what happens acceptable (even if it happens in many settings in many places). "Just deal with it" is a little bit backwards if you want to make a positive change in the community. She is probably not the best spokesperson for that change, but if you want more people to say "hey this is not okay" to those who love gossip and rumours then maybe it's a step in the right direction to be allowed to talk about it without people just brushing it off. Will it stop happening on sites like reddit and 4chan? Prob not. Will TL get to feel elitist about not being busybodies? Just maybe  Could you make it happen less in person? Almost definitely. The higher the social consequences, the more effective just talking about it can be.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
This has very little to do with the esports industry and just to do with groups of people congregating in general. If you look at the number of female fans in the esports space compared the the number of male fans, and then compare how many females get hired for roles, the ratios are incredibly skewed. It's pretty natural in a male dominated industry that girls get a leg up (no pun), but it also comes with it's obvious draw backs.
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Just dont start stealing guys headphones and you'll be fine.
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On December 06 2012 02:21 LuckyFool wrote:
Just dont start stealing guys headphones and you'll be fine.
Chairs are ok though
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This girl won't even dance. Move along.
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Average and sub-average looking girls in eSports get treated really really nicely.. so they go for the attention. You might not be sleeping around, but a lot of girls are.
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On December 06 2012 02:29 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:21 LuckyFool wrote:
Just dont start stealing guys headphones and you'll be fine. Chairs are ok though
I prefer taking their bookcases.
I currently have Xeris's bookcase sitting in my living room.
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On December 06 2012 02:29 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:21 LuckyFool wrote:
Just dont start stealing guys headphones and you'll be fine. Chairs are ok though
I had to laugh at these ^^
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On December 06 2012 03:52 PrimeTimey wrote:
Average and sub-average looking girls in eSports get treated really really nicely.. so they go for the attention. You might not be sleeping around, but a lot of girls are.
As the owner and operator of a business, how can you even say this in a public space. What would convince you that this would be a good idea to state anywhere.
Edit: I think we found one of the perpetrators of rumors.
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Why do you care? Why is it so important what other people think of you?
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What an unfortunate situation, Brandi. The one thing I've learned is to ignore the idiots and just brush it off. It's difficult but it will help keep your sanity.
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because theres no apparent reason for a lot of girls to be in esports, most know nothing about the game and have no other talents. those who do dont really get shit. no one assumes flo is just here to sleep with guys and get attention, because shes a relatively good player. if she were a guy she wouldnt get the attention she does but she clearly invests time in the game and wants to get better at it. same with rachel, because shes been in esports a long time and is clearly passionate about it and is a very good presenter and host. it makes sense for them to get the attention they do.
but a lot of female personalities arent good at being personalities and clearly know nothing about the game nor do they try to learn more. male fans like that are just unknown fans and no one gives it a second thought. but the community is so girl starved that any decent looking female who wants to be a part of the community can become relatively prominent in it. but then when anyone takes a second look at it they realize theres no actual reason for most of those people to be prominent. and the easy, obvious, and often true explanation is either that they slept their way there or lead guys on.
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
an easily volatile topic so if you think that comes off as sexist, re-read it. there is no reason that girls cant or shouldnt be part of esports, and there are many who are legitimate good parts of the community. but theres a ton of shitty fake ones too, and theyre the reason that most girls get a bad reputation.
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On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
the easy, obvious, and often true explanation is either that they slept their way there or lead guys on.
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
Ok.
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On December 06 2012 09:08 Thrill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
the easy, obvious, and often true explanation is either that they slept their way there or lead guys on.
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one. Ok.
Way to completely miss the point
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Bah, who cares what people think. It is my strong opinion that if you are fully confident and comfortable with yourself the stupid shit other people say just becomes entertaining, and doesn't affect you anymore. I think it is easier said than done to be 100% happy and confident with every aspect of your life, but you have to just remember that you and the people who care about you know the truth, and that's all that matters.
Always enjoy spending time with you at events, Hun! Miss you already!
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With women so scarce in the community, I wonder if men realize all the ways they manage to push us away instead of include us.
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Drop me a pm, if some1 that is "that girl" appears.
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endorsing false rumors by actively denying them rarely works out the way you'd like.
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On December 06 2012 10:30 Ryan307 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 09:08 Thrill wrote:On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
the easy, obvious, and often true explanation is either that they slept their way there or lead guys on.
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one. Ok. Way to completely miss the point
The point is that the terminology used voids the entire argument. You can't use that language to describe anyone, it's misogynistic and ignorant to talk of a world where such terminology is acceptable.
Not even the worst groupie deserves to be called 'a worthless slut'. There's not a scenario in the world you can paint me where someone is deserving of that label.
'Useless manipulator', sure, 'worthless slut', no. It's just completely unacceptable.
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On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
because theres no apparent reason for a lot of girls to be in esports, most know nothing about the game and have no other talents. those who do dont really get shit. no one assumes flo is just here to sleep with guys and get attention, because shes a relatively good player. if she were a guy she wouldnt get the attention she does but she clearly invests time in the game and wants to get better at it. same with rachel, because shes been in esports a long time and is clearly passionate about it and is a very good presenter and host. it makes sense for them to get the attention they do.
but a lot of female personalities arent good at being personalities and clearly know nothing about the game nor do they try to learn more. male fans like that are just unknown fans and no one gives it a second thought. but the community is so girl starved that any decent looking female who wants to be a part of the community can become relatively prominent in it. but then when anyone takes a second look at it they realize theres no actual reason for most of those people to be prominent. and the easy, obvious, and often true explanation is either that they slept their way there or lead guys on.
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
an easily volatile topic so if you think that comes off as sexist, re-read it. there is no reason that girls cant or shouldnt be part of esports, and there are many who are legitimate good parts of the community. but theres a ton of shitty fake ones too, and theyre the reason that most girls get a bad reputation.
Once i must agree on what you wrote. In all my years of e-sport, i met way more girls boobwipeing then serving the community with useful work.
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On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
because theres no apparent reason for a lot of girls to be in esports, most know nothing about the game and have no other talents. those who do dont really get shit. no one assumes flo is just here to sleep with guys and get attention, because shes a relatively good player. if she were a guy she wouldnt get the attention she does but she clearly invests time in the game and wants to get better at it. same with rachel, because shes been in esports a long time and is clearly passionate about it and is a very good presenter and host. it makes sense for them to get the attention they do.
but a lot of female personalities arent good at being personalities and clearly know nothing about the game nor do they try to learn more. male fans like that are just unknown fans and no one gives it a second thought. but the community is so girl starved that any decent looking female who wants to be a part of the community can become relatively prominent in it. but then when anyone takes a second look at it they realize theres no actual reason for most of those people to be prominent. and the easy, obvious, and often true explanation is either that they slept their way there or lead guys on.
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
an easily volatile topic so if you think that comes off as sexist, re-read it. there is no reason that girls cant or shouldnt be part of esports, and there are many who are legitimate good parts of the community. but theres a ton of shitty fake ones too, and theyre the reason that most girls get a bad reputation.
Could I please ask of you the source of which youve got that "most girls in esports know nothing about the game and have no other talents"? If there is any statistic on the subject you could share, I would like to see it.
And, it does come off as sexist, according to my standards.
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On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
So if girls that sleep around are "worthless sluts" what does that make the guys that sleep with them?
"Slut-shaming" is stupid, pointless, and in the end counterproductive because the premise behind it is that a) it is shameful to have sex and b) that it is somehow the woman's job to control the purse-strings to the sex. Therefore if a guy hooks up with someone he, for whatever reason, shouldn't have it is still the girl's fault because the man just can't help it but the woman should have known better. It reduces men to automotons who have no control over their pants, and women to prudes who begrudgingly allow the men to do whatever they want as if the woman gets nothing out of it and so should know better.
While your point may be semi-valid (although I think it takes the blame off of the guys who are a willing party to the act) use of words matter and you should correct yourself.
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On December 07 2012 02:12 FryBender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
So if girls that sleep around are "worthless sluts" what does that make the guys that sleep with them? "Slut-shaming" is stupid, pointless, and in the end counterproductive because the premise behind it is that a) it is shameful to have sex and b) that it is somehow the woman's job to control the purse-strings to the sex. Therefore if a guy hooks up with someone he, for whatever reason, shouldn't have it is still the girl's fault because the man just can't help it but the woman should have known better. It reduces men to automotons who have no control over their pants, and women to prudes who begrudgingly allow the men to do whatever they want as if the woman gets nothing out of it and so should know better. While your point may be semi-valid (although I think it takes the blame off of the guys who are a willing party to the act) use of words matter and you should correct yourself.
If you think Idra isn't critical of male community members who feed into bad content or attention whoring, you don't know Idra. And sure, he used very politically incorrect language, but to pretend that his use of misogynistic words invalidates his point is PC pedantic nonsense.
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On December 07 2012 03:46 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 02:12 FryBender wrote:On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
So if girls that sleep around are "worthless sluts" what does that make the guys that sleep with them? "Slut-shaming" is stupid, pointless, and in the end counterproductive because the premise behind it is that a) it is shameful to have sex and b) that it is somehow the woman's job to control the purse-strings to the sex. Therefore if a guy hooks up with someone he, for whatever reason, shouldn't have it is still the girl's fault because the man just can't help it but the woman should have known better. It reduces men to automotons who have no control over their pants, and women to prudes who begrudgingly allow the men to do whatever they want as if the woman gets nothing out of it and so should know better. While your point may be semi-valid (although I think it takes the blame off of the guys who are a willing party to the act) use of words matter and you should correct yourself. If you think Idra isn't critical of male community members who feed into bad content or attention whoring, you don't know Idra. And sure, he used very politically incorrect language, but to pretend that his use of misogynistic words invalidates his point is PC pedantic nonsense.
You agree that he used words that convey a message (a misogynistic one) and then you go and say that it doesn't invalidate his point on the view of women. Clearly he has a strong viewpoint on whether or not women and men are equal in sexual liberalism but I guess I'm just being pedantic. As a matter of fact his main argument would have no point if he didn't use that very specific crude word like slut. That word has a very specific connotation in his argument that girls that like to have sex are ruining it for girls that don't. Political correctness has nothing to do with a message you're trying to convey. You can't protect yourself by saying "I know that what I'm saying sounds sexist but it's not" when what you're saying is sexist. Just like you can't protect yourself from being a racist by first putting a disclaimer beforehand. Or saying anything dumb and then trying to explain it away as "I was just misunderstood." Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock tried that strategy, saying exactly the same things that you are telling me. That they were being misinterpreted by those that don't like them simply because they "misspoke." But life doesn't work like that. Words have meanings behind them and the words women and sluts are not interchangeable.
And as to your point that I don't know Idra you're absolutely correct, I don't. And I don't like to infer non-existent points in arguments. The fact is that Idra is only blaming the girls that hang around the scene (since the guys that hang around the scene somehow don't matter). When Idra says that the men-whores who sleep with the willing women are ruining it for the girls that don't, then I'll know that Idra is being critical of them.
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On December 07 2012 05:27 FryBender wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 03:46 farvacola wrote:On December 07 2012 02:12 FryBender wrote:On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
So if girls that sleep around are "worthless sluts" what does that make the guys that sleep with them? "Slut-shaming" is stupid, pointless, and in the end counterproductive because the premise behind it is that a) it is shameful to have sex and b) that it is somehow the woman's job to control the purse-strings to the sex. Therefore if a guy hooks up with someone he, for whatever reason, shouldn't have it is still the girl's fault because the man just can't help it but the woman should have known better. It reduces men to automotons who have no control over their pants, and women to prudes who begrudgingly allow the men to do whatever they want as if the woman gets nothing out of it and so should know better. While your point may be semi-valid (although I think it takes the blame off of the guys who are a willing party to the act) use of words matter and you should correct yourself. If you think Idra isn't critical of male community members who feed into bad content or attention whoring, you don't know Idra. And sure, he used very politically incorrect language, but to pretend that his use of misogynistic words invalidates his point is PC pedantic nonsense. You agree that he used words that convey a message (a misogynistic one) and then you go and say that it doesn't invalidate his point on the view of women. Clearly he has a strong viewpoint on whether or not women and men are equal in sexual liberalism but I guess I'm just being pedantic. As a matter of fact his main argument would have no point if he didn't use that very specific crude word like slut. That word has a very specific connotation in his argument that girls that like to have sex are ruining it for girls that don't. Political correctness has nothing to do with a message you're trying to convey. You can't protect yourself by saying "I know that what I'm saying sounds sexist but it's not" when what you're saying is sexist. Just like you can't protect yourself from being a racist by first putting a disclaimer beforehand. Or saying anything dumb and then trying to explain it away as "I was just misunderstood." Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock tried that strategy, saying exactly the same things that you are telling me. That they were being misinterpreted by those that don't like them simply because they "misspoke." But life doesn't work like that. Words have meanings behind them and the words women and sluts are not interchangeable. And as to your point that I don't know Idra you're absolutely correct, I don't. And I don't like to infer non-existent points in arguments. The fact is that Idra is only blaming the girls that hang around the scene (since the guys that hang around the scene somehow don't matter). When Idra says that the men-whores who sleep with the willing women are ruining it for the girls that don't, then I'll know that Idra is being critical of them.
That was not his point at all; for someone who says that they don't like "to infer non-existent points" you sure are looking for a stand that no one here has actually taken. Idra is making no claims as to the general nature of femininity or feminist rights, his point was that the females in the scene who put out shit content and remain coddled are more or less ruining it for the women who genuinely love the game of Sc2. In your haste to drop criticisms of people like Mourdouch and Akin (both of whom I personally dislike), you've painted Idra's post in a non-existent light. No one here is suggesting that "women and sluts" are interchangeable, in fact Idra's argument revolves around there being a definite distinction. Sexual liberalism has nothing to do with this, it has to do with the inherent nature of a male-dominated scene.
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On December 07 2012 05:35 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 05:27 FryBender wrote:On December 07 2012 03:46 farvacola wrote:On December 07 2012 02:12 FryBender wrote:On December 06 2012 08:43 IdrA wrote:
it really, really blows for the legit girls in the community as they have to put up with all the skepticism cuz of the worthless sluts, but more often than not the cynical bitter portion of the community is actually right on this one.
So if girls that sleep around are "worthless sluts" what does that make the guys that sleep with them? "Slut-shaming" is stupid, pointless, and in the end counterproductive because the premise behind it is that a) it is shameful to have sex and b) that it is somehow the woman's job to control the purse-strings to the sex. Therefore if a guy hooks up with someone he, for whatever reason, shouldn't have it is still the girl's fault because the man just can't help it but the woman should have known better. It reduces men to automotons who have no control over their pants, and women to prudes who begrudgingly allow the men to do whatever they want as if the woman gets nothing out of it and so should know better. While your point may be semi-valid (although I think it takes the blame off of the guys who are a willing party to the act) use of words matter and you should correct yourself. If you think Idra isn't critical of male community members who feed into bad content or attention whoring, you don't know Idra. And sure, he used very politically incorrect language, but to pretend that his use of misogynistic words invalidates his point is PC pedantic nonsense. You agree that he used words that convey a message (a misogynistic one) and then you go and say that it doesn't invalidate his point on the view of women. Clearly he has a strong viewpoint on whether or not women and men are equal in sexual liberalism but I guess I'm just being pedantic. As a matter of fact his main argument would have no point if he didn't use that very specific crude word like slut. That word has a very specific connotation in his argument that girls that like to have sex are ruining it for girls that don't. Political correctness has nothing to do with a message you're trying to convey. You can't protect yourself by saying "I know that what I'm saying sounds sexist but it's not" when what you're saying is sexist. Just like you can't protect yourself from being a racist by first putting a disclaimer beforehand. Or saying anything dumb and then trying to explain it away as "I was just misunderstood." Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock tried that strategy, saying exactly the same things that you are telling me. That they were being misinterpreted by those that don't like them simply because they "misspoke." But life doesn't work like that. Words have meanings behind them and the words women and sluts are not interchangeable. And as to your point that I don't know Idra you're absolutely correct, I don't. And I don't like to infer non-existent points in arguments. The fact is that Idra is only blaming the girls that hang around the scene (since the guys that hang around the scene somehow don't matter). When Idra says that the men-whores who sleep with the willing women are ruining it for the girls that don't, then I'll know that Idra is being critical of them. That was not his point at all; for someone who says that they don't like "to infer non-existent points" you sure are looking for a stand that no one here has actually taken. Idra is making no claims as to the general nature of femininity or feminist rights, his point was that the females in the scene who put out shit content and remain coddled are more or less ruining it for the women who genuinely love the game of Sc2. In your haste to drop criticisms of people like Mourdouch and Akin (both of whom I personally dislike), you've painted Idra's post in a non-existent light. No one here is suggesting that "women and sluts" are interchangeable, in fact Idra's argument revolves around their being a definite distinction. Sexual liberalism has nothing to do with this, it has to do with the inherent nature of a male-dominated scene.
Idra has taken a stand that "sluts" in SC2 scene are ruining it for the rest of the women. That's what I quoted in my original response. You agreed that that was misogynistic but said that Idra thinks the same about the men because you know him. I said it doesn't matter if you say that Idra says the same about the men and that the statement "worthless sluts" is inherently incorrect as it holds women to a different standard. Now you're coming back and say
females in the scene who put out shit content and remain coddled are more or less ruining it for the women who genuinely love the game of Sc2
So again you're still agreeing with me that Idra is calling these females who are in the SC2 scene for attention "worthless sluts." How is that ok?
Finally, I'm not sure if you see the irony of all of this, but Idra has had the exact same criticism leveled against him (that lately his results are not worthy of the type of attention that he gets and that he makes it harder for others who are more "worhty" to get into the scene). So does that mean that Idra is a worthless slut as well because he is coddled by the masses for putting out shit results?
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Unless you want to point to a single example of a girl who has slept/manipulated her way to a prominent position within the scene, yeah - your point is void.
All you're doing is adding to this weird misconception which stems from ignorance. Why are there no examples if these girls are the norm? The majority? I know not of one community figure who fits the profile. Groupies, sure, but are you saying groupies should be ashamed of themselves? Why? They're not in any undeserved spotlight, only you and the other players and people within the scene know of them, if you have a problem with their behavior, that's your problem and not one that concerns the community.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 05 2012 18:05 BrightSideSC2 wrote:By the way, I have ONE love, who I completely respect and cherish, and I have absolutely NO desire to 'get with' anyone else at events (or anywhere).
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uvU6C.jpg)
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Canada5155 Posts
Torte x Brightside 4 ever
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ROFL
edit: to contribute: the real bottom-line is that those who really matter in the scene don't judge so swiftly about people, especially those they meet in-person.
Everyone else just likes to talk.
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-_-... why do we even have to be surprise that some people are just vicious. :0
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This really has little to do with esports, it just happens to be your line of work. It's like this in every job. Or school. Or group. Anything with genitals present, really.
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EPT
