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Active: 1015 users

Ladder Anxiety and MMR

Blogs > StatixEx
Post a Reply
StatixEx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United Kingdom779 Posts
November 02 2012 21:05 GMT
#1
I saw a poll on the first page and answered it and is kinda against anything i believe in when playing video games.

I recently watched the king of kong and thought that Billy Mitchell is suffering from this kind of anxiety. He simply wouldnt bring himself to play live with Wieber and i had a lot of respect for wieber throughout the film as you can see how he had to kind of ignore his family in the background.

Ladder anxiety shouldnt exist and if it does, YOU . . yes YOU need to snap out of it and think for one second about the bigger picture. i coiuld say right now to stop it all off, get a second account in another language (kr) for example and play with he lag and the language barrier . . . most of all, just dont care about the league. i wish there was an option to hide it sometimes.

If you feel like not clicking the 'find match button' you need to ask yourself these questions

1. If i lose. what does it matter? You lose a few points, maybe you get demoted but you are still going to be able to have another game against similarly skilled players. This is what MMr is for (more on this later)

2. does it really matter to you at all sc2? What i mean by this is, is it in anyway contributing to your daily function of life (income/social grpups??) if so, believe me, kick back, lose and then have a chat about it. If you win think of the one line convo you can have. Lose however and holy hell you can go on for 20-30 mins about imba toss and what not!

3. If i get to <insert league here> will anyone who matters give a damn (parents/employers/bank/insurance companies . . insert anything here) the answer is no. For a luagh next time you go to renew your car insurance just say "how much!!!!!" do you know im a master league zerg player!!!! . . . seriously nobody cares

4. Its better than playing the AI and or a custom game which in the end REALLY DOESNT MATTER!


back to MMR. I know im no GM but as a programmer i dont think MMR takes wins/loses as high regard into working out your MMR. For the last 2 years of me playing this is what ive found on 2 accounts which i use for messing about on

on 1 account(na) i just droned, queens and static defense, scouted and built lings to pressure but teched up to max during the game. Got to gold without winning ANY of my placement matches and proceeded to lose way over half of my games and still not get placed down only to be put against people higher than me. this still continues, i just got gold in the current season after losing another game in my placement against a low silver player.

2. Lost placement matches against lower players and got placed 2 leagues higher than them (one instance where i played a silver, lost on purpose and got put into plat)

MMR im positive looks at i think econ management and army value first. Ive not read anyone say this directly because every time i run a search on mmr it goes on about wins . . .well yes, to be winning must mean ur game is better than the opps but in my cases above, i didnt actually play properly and still got placed higher. My sea account is what i use to practice builds and basically mess about with the game WITH NO ANXIETY!!! and im still getting placed in gold leagues with me playing plats and dias . . why? I rarely win and i dont leave games. . .EVER

MMR cannot be biased towards wins for another reason (and in some cases i think it can be flawed and broken if we knew the real mechanics behind it) as are you telling me if i play a bronze player, Get to 5 bases vs 1 or 2 way under saturated, get to 200 on t3 and they still be at t2, sit my army outside his base on hold position and let him kill me . . . are you telling me he is the better player here? And yes i have done it 20 games in a row and not been put down a league. In most cases the next games i play just get placed higher! i wish i saved the reps and vods for this but as i speak im thinking of getting another account to show this, even with my mid jobber skills.

so many times ive seen on streams misrallys misclicks, forgetfulness and things like that and this be a deciding factor for them to lose the game, does this mean that they are truly worse than their opp . . .maybe but seeing people like idra/ret/stephano place an evo instead of a pool doesnt for one minute mean the other guy is better. this could be seen as a typo!

anyway, i write this waiting for the MLG . . .what else am i supposed to do . . play more sc . .wait . ..,wouldnt want to lose rank now would i?

**
Schickysc
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada380 Posts
November 02 2012 21:12 GMT
#2
MMR needs to diminish with periods of inactivity.

For example, if I have a rough stint of work for a month, and I don't get to play any 1v1s, my game is way off. When I come back to play, I'm playing against people that are way better than me. It causes many losses, and is disheartening. Ladder was designed to keep you around 50% win rate, give or take. It's fun to win sometimes.

What's more, is that after these 10 ladder games, I get discouraged, and stop playing again for a few weeks or more. Once again, my skill level drops well below my MMR.

Worse, during those 10 games, I may get paired with someone who is trying to tank their MMR, and get a free win against someone my skill would not normally allow me to beat. It wrecks the system even further.

The current ladder system is fine for the consistent players, and pro players. For casuals, it's not. Unranked matches won't fix this because MMR is still broken.
Shoot for the Moon, Find a Star
Antylamon
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1981 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-02 21:22:11
November 02 2012 21:21 GMT
#3
When you keep on shoving it down people's throats that it "doesn't matter", then you're ruining the point of having fun.

Does it matter that you are having fun? Yes, of course it does. Logically, however, it shouldn't matter at all. As far as logic is concerned, you should be spending your time doing something constructive, but fun is not logical. It is emotional.

Besides, wanting to win is human nature. You can't destroy that part of yourself, no matter how hard you try.
+ Show Spoiler +



hehe


I'm not one of those people who cheeses every game "because it's fun", if you get the wrong idea from this.
StatixEx
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United Kingdom779 Posts
November 02 2012 22:22 GMT
#4
yaya agreed, the game has to be fun but we are here on a team board . . .we live and breath the competitive angle of this game . . all because of team liquid. I love the game. its as simple as that. I find myself playing terrans (just got out of a 54 minute epic game!) which i won but felt bad for the other guy. we both played well, trying to cut into each other mixing in different units to deal with whatever we were throwin at each other. . yes i had fun . . . but there are times where i am like omg this race so OP . . but them i just press the gg, think for one second and it all goes back to being ok . . and fun
Phaethon1018
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2 Posts
December 18 2012 11:47 GMT
#5
Not sure how any of the ladder system works... I was playing on a friends account the other day... My first game I went up against a MASTER player and he is simply a Silver player. Before I started playing his account he had 97 wins and 268 or so games played... With losing 3 times (once because i canceled the game and the other from lag and of course against the master) he was at 110 wins... But the first game i play was a MASTER player on someone with that crappy of a win ratio and a silver player...
Dunno
Jellicent
Profile Joined November 2012
Germany23 Posts
December 18 2012 12:56 GMT
#6
I'm scared to play on the ladder because it actually would show how often I lost. That's why I play unranked on HotS.
I can't really deal with losing at SCII, because of my sad past.
I'm learning to deal with loss and frustration and "failing" and one day I'll climb up the ladder again.

I played ladder before on 1v1. I was placed in bronze which was not the problem. I thought "way to to! I'll beat their asses up and be promoted!" - Yeahhhh, nope. I played against golds all the time and got frustrated because I won almost all games I was playing but I never got promoted. So I gave up. THAT'S WHY I HATE THE FUCKING LADDER!
Faldinerous
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States62 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-18 21:31:41
December 18 2012 21:25 GMT
#7
Yeah this is long if you don' like that then this is all that matters:
Ladder position means absolutely nothing!
If you have ladder anxiety, separate your ego from your win rate (it can be done)
MMR is an elo system that Blizz hides from us to try and shelter our fragile egos.

A lot of people talk about ladder anxiety, and I think it's an interesting topic. However not many people bring up the main problem (in my eyes) which is that people who are the worst about ladder anxiety are people who have their ego tied up too tightly in their league/ladder position. (call it self worth if you don't like ego, they're pretty interchangeable in this instance)

I think that Blizzard used the current system of a divisioned up ladder to try and help people feel better about themselves because when there's only 100 people per division it's insanely easy to be in the top of your division when you figure out how many people get placed and then don't play much the rest of the season. Especially in the lower leagues where the majority of players are.

So therefore the main thing that you need to realize if you have ladder anxiety is that your position in the ladder means absolutely nothing. I was recently promoted to silver league, according to the MMR tool on SC2Gears my MMR is roughly 450, about 50 points below the promotion point to get into silver. (It was higher but dropped because of a lot of things that have no bearing here) I'm ranked 7th in my division. Does that mean that I'm a "top rated" silver player? Hell no, it means that the division system is seriously skewed (to the point of being flawed imo) to inflate egos.

Another common thing said is that they don' want other people to see how many times they've lost. This one crazy idea to me. Who are the people going around looking at other people's accounts and counting their losses and THEN giving them crap about it? I have never seen or heard from these people (and if they were around I would have cause I've lost a LOT of games lately ). And even if their were these "loss trolls" running around being douchebags what does their opinion matter to you? I would just laugh at them and if they got too annoying block them, there, crisis averted. I think the problem with this is that people are afraid that others will see how many games they've lost and then draw from that that they are less of a person from it because they themselves feel like less of a person because of it. Again tying back into my main point of separating your ego from your play

As far as MMR goes, it's an elo system like you would find in chess. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system) Which works a lot like the points system does but it's a lot more likely to jump around (especially down) than the ladder points system does. For a full explanation go here. The reason why it seems inconsistent is because you can never validly assume a persons MMR from anything you see. It's kind of long and involved how it works, but basically it goes like this. You have an MMR, they have an MMR the system compares the two and then determines how much a win or a loss will effect both of you. This is also effected I believe by the uncertainty factor which changes depending on how long you've been in the queue and how much your MMR has been moving lately. It may seem strange that you lost to a silver in your placement match and you're placed in Gold but there are a lot of things that could happen. Here's the first 2 explanations that jump out at me

-The silver you're playing might actually have an MMR of a gold but it hasn't settled down enough to get him a promotion.
-The amount of points you lost on your MMR from losing to the silver still had you with a high enough MMR to be placed in Gold

I'm sure there's more but this is long enough as it is. To make a really long story a little shorter, Blizzard needs to quit with the cloak and dagger of the hidden MMR and just show it to us so we can know where we stand if we want to, then things would make a lot more sense. Also there is a whole other point that should be brought up in that losses are actually MOER important than wins in the realm of improvement. This is (briefly because I could pretty easily double the size of this reply talking about that) basically because of the fact that in losses you're bound to have more to learn from because you made more mistakes than you would in an even match win. And secondly because when we win we are more likely to pat ourselves on the back and think about the good things we did making it harder to find our mistakes and learn from them. There, there's my very long 2 cents.
"i should have warmed up against the AI 1st... getting beaten by such a noob is embarassing"
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