EPTA Better Warhound - Page 2
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On September 12 2012 02:02 avilo wrote: At this point they can give the warhound the ability to launch playboy magazines at the enemy and it would have more depth than it currently does. This. @OP: Your suggestion is appealing because anything sounds appealing besides the current warhound at this point. But I don't see how you could sell this to anyone if you restate it as plainly as possible: It's a marauder, except it builds from factory and has bonus vs light units instead. And it hits air!! It's a mass and win stutter step unit just like bio. This game doesn't need more purely mobility impairment (slow/stun) effects, I think everyone has more than had their fill of those. However, space control effects... that's what everybody wants! Your suggestion should have been: + Show Spoiler + Warhound can cast brief plasma field at a point of your choice. Mix and match buffs/debuffs besides "slow" for interesting and useful ability. For example, if it's just a slow, that's a very microable unit that can use it to kite (especially when you build up groups to cast successively), but it's also even more synergistic with mech because you place down "don't come here" zones near your tank position. Another example, units inside the plasma Energize field get a damage buff (like +20%) but whenever a unit inside the plasma attacks, it damages every unit inside the plasma (like 5 damage). This could be cast on top of your units to evaporate zerglings (along with your front line potentially), but you and your opponent can both move-command your troops to prevent firing and taking damage. This again is microable, very choice dependent, and synergizes with "mech". Against closing units you can cast preemptive fields to force them to move in taking fire, back off, or take extra damage while trying to engage (like a pack of marines stimming into tanks... imagine that). On top of that, you can even use it on your own units to buff their damage temporarily. Siege boost anyone? Yamato? Note that with the Energize example, the Warhound would fill a sorely needed role in mech: anti-zealot. Zealots have two attacks, so 3 zealots attacking once inside the same field is 6 activations, causing 6N damage over the 3 of them, which is 18N or 90 damage. That's half a psi storm, and this is a conservative example! But anyway, moving warhound deeper into caster territory gives you any number of options. Any of which are better than the current version. | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
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aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
ot: make warhound -> goliath make siege tank -> siege tank make thor something awesome now you're done and its fuckin awesome | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
On September 12 2012 02:02 avilo wrote: At this point they can give the warhound the ability to launch playboy magazines at the enemy and it would have more depth than it currently does. Well that really wouldn't be effective. I mean in TvT at least both Banshee and Medivac pilots are female unless it gets to BCs it wouldn't get the vehicle to slow down and I really don't know what the Protoss pilots are in to... | ||
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Pax
United States175 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 12 2012 19:48 GolemMadness wrote: Why does it do bonus damage to light? That's what hellions are for. The text is in red; the bonus damage only applies if Thor is a hero unit. Then you need bonus to light + air to retain mech's ability to kill mutas without bio upgrades. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 12 2012 13:04 aRyuujin wrote: oh YEAH SHADY IS FEATURED LIKE A BOSS ot: make warhound -> goliath make siege tank -> siege tank make thor something awesome now you're done and its fuckin awesome =) thanks! have to disagree about making WH a carbon copy of goliath tho. Goliath was a pretty dumb/a-movy unit in BW (and, next to the BW dragoon, my least liked unit.) the thing is that right now mech lacks the ability to reliably come out ahead in engagements when it's sieged up and entrenched. This is a problem because, from an army comparison standpoint, the tradeoff should always go like this, assuming equal tech tiers and resource cost: more speed <--------------------------> less speed less power <--------------------------> more power A sieged up mech position is the slowest army in the game: it has to unsiege, then find a new position without getting attacked along the way (while maneuvering around at 2.25 speed), then siege up again. By this logic, it should wipe the floor with any faster T2 or T3 army if mech is sieged. Mech is expensive. Also, since the armory is a tier 2 structure (not t1 like evo chamber or forge), 3/3 mech, given how late it comes in the game, should for all intents and purposes be considered t3. The only t3 armies that can compare with a mech army in expense are a collo/archon/templar/speedzeal army, or a BL/infestor army, or a lategame skyterran army. All of these armies are more mobile than a sieged up mech position, yet they also all win in a head to head fight versus maxed 3/3 tank lines. This means mech is always undesirable as it simply does not do the job of an army (winning fights and/or maintaining map control through mobility) as well as counterparts with the same cost and tech position. Thats why I propose making the WH like this: because this new WH, from a pure HP/dmg perspective, is cost ineffective, but becomes very cost effective when used to force units to wade through an additional volley or two of tank fire before entering engagement range or forcing swarms of air units to stay spread out versus a mech deathball. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On September 12 2012 09:49 EatThePath wrote: This. @OP: Your suggestion is appealing because anything sounds appealing besides the current warhound at this point. But I don't see how you could sell this to anyone if you restate it as plainly as possible: It's a marauder, except it builds from factory and has bonus vs light units instead. And it hits air!! It's a mass and win stutter step unit just like bio. This game doesn't need more purely mobility impairment (slow/stun) effects, I think everyone has more than had their fill of those. However, space control effects... that's what everybody wants! Your suggestion should have been: + Show Spoiler + Warhound can cast brief plasma field at a point of your choice. Mix and match buffs/debuffs besides "slow" for interesting and useful ability. For example, if it's just a slow, that's a very microable unit that can use it to kite (especially when you build up groups to cast successively), but it's also even more synergistic with mech because you place down "don't come here" zones near your tank position. Another example, units inside the plasma Energize field get a damage buff (like +20%) but whenever a unit inside the plasma attacks, it damages every unit inside the plasma (like 5 damage). This could be cast on top of your units to evaporate zerglings (along with your front line potentially), but you and your opponent can both move-command your troops to prevent firing and taking damage. This again is microable, very choice dependent, and synergizes with "mech". Against closing units you can cast preemptive fields to force them to move in taking fire, back off, or take extra damage while trying to engage (like a pack of marines stimming into tanks... imagine that). On top of that, you can even use it on your own units to buff their damage temporarily. Siege boost anyone? Yamato? Note that with the Energize example, the Warhound would fill a sorely needed role in mech: anti-zealot. Zealots have two attacks, so 3 zealots attacking once inside the same field is 6 activations, causing 6N damage over the 3 of them, which is 18N or 90 damage. That's half a psi storm, and this is a conservative example! But anyway, moving warhound deeper into caster territory gives you any number of options. Any of which are better than the current version. I disagree that this is exactly like the marauder conc shell. Marauder conc shell, in my view, is made for squad level engagements. 2 or 3 marauders, 8-10 marines versus a handful of opposing units. Marauders slow down chunks of the army and let the marines clean up. Conc shell is not all that great once armies get big, as inevitably there are more targets for "slowing" than the player can effectively target down given limited APM. On the flip side, this WH slow/stun ability is designed to be most effective in late-game large engagements, because it has a longer cooldown and is AOE. I think the energize ability would be a pretty decent addition IF the damage didn't affect your units but only enemy units. I'll have to think more about it though. | ||
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ReketSomething
United States6012 Posts
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Sporadic44
United States533 Posts
also, is there a reason you think they'd change the thor back to a "hero" unit? didnt think that was really on the table anymore | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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EnE
417 Posts
Smokescreen ability. It shoots LOS blocking. This encourages great positional play and skill. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It can't be an AA unit because Thors are still AA and they've made Widow Mines AA. It can't the meat and potatoes unit of Mech, because they've made Battle Hellions for that. It can't even really be the anti-mechanical anti-siege unit that they wanted it to be, because that overlaps with siege tanks, funnily enough. They tried to make it that just by making it ridiculously cost effective and it not only didn't work but was boring. I think in order to make the Warhound fit, they need to either change Battle Hellions, or change Thors. Either A: Remove Battle Hellions and make Warhounds a cheaper 2 supply anti ground Factory unit that doesn't require a Tech Lab, but reduce its stats across the board. Or B: Change Thor to a ground-only anti siege unit. Change Strike Cannons so they've got a siege tank comparable range, so that Thors can be used to break siege lines in TvT. Give the things more health/armor and better anti ground stats, remove their anti air attack, and make them cost more. And then give Warhound an anti air attack and make it the AA unit. Price it similar to a siege tank and make it not as good against ground as a tank, but with a nice AA attack. Of course then it would just be a Goliath, funnily enough. | ||
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Nightsz
Canada398 Posts
This is way too imba, even more broken than fungal growth. | ||
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Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
I didn't read any official announcements etc or anything, so I'm not sure whether they're planning to replace it with something else or what, though. I do think they should add in something to have some variety in what T can play around with etc. | ||
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