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A Better Warhound - Page 2

Blogs > Shady Sands
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
September 11 2012 22:34 GMT
#21
a 1.5 sec stun seems kinda long for such a cheap unit
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-12 00:59:47
September 12 2012 00:49 GMT
#22
On September 12 2012 02:02 avilo wrote:
At this point they can give the warhound the ability to launch playboy magazines at the enemy and it would have more depth than it currently does.

This.

@OP: Your suggestion is appealing because anything sounds appealing besides the current warhound at this point. But I don't see how you could sell this to anyone if you restate it as plainly as possible:

      It's a marauder, except it builds from factory and has bonus vs light units instead. And it hits air!!

It's a mass and win stutter step unit just like bio. This game doesn't need more purely mobility impairment (slow/stun) effects, I think everyone has more than had their fill of those.

However, space control effects... that's what everybody wants!

Your suggestion should have been: + Show Spoiler +

      Warhound can cast brief plasma field at a point of your choice.

Mix and match buffs/debuffs besides "slow" for interesting and useful ability. For example, if it's just a slow, that's a very microable unit that can use it to kite (especially when you build up groups to cast successively), but it's also even more synergistic with mech because you place down "don't come here" zones near your tank position.

Another example, units inside the plasma Energize field get a damage buff (like +20%) but whenever a unit inside the plasma attacks, it damages every unit inside the plasma (like 5 damage). This could be cast on top of your units to evaporate zerglings (along with your front line potentially), but you and your opponent can both move-command your troops to prevent firing and taking damage. This again is microable, very choice dependent, and synergizes with "mech". Against closing units you can cast preemptive fields to force them to move in taking fire, back off, or take extra damage while trying to engage (like a pack of marines stimming into tanks... imagine that). On top of that, you can even use it on your own units to buff their damage temporarily. Siege boost anyone? Yamato?

Note that with the Energize example, the Warhound would fill a sorely needed role in mech: anti-zealot. Zealots have two attacks, so 3 zealots attacking once inside the same field is 6 activations, causing 6N damage over the 3 of them, which is 18N or 90 damage. That's half a psi storm, and this is a conservative example!

But anyway, moving warhound deeper into caster territory gives you any number of options. Any of which are better than the current version.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
targ
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Malaysia445 Posts
September 12 2012 02:05 GMT
#23
I dunno if I agree with the bonus vs light or not, seems to overlap with hellions abit.
http://billyfoong.blogspot.com/ my other opinions are here
aRyuujin
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5049 Posts
September 12 2012 04:04 GMT
#24
oh YEAH SHADY IS FEATURED LIKE A BOSS

ot: make warhound -> goliath
make siege tank -> siege tank

make thor something awesome
now you're done and its fuckin awesome
can i get my estro logo back pls
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
September 12 2012 10:48 GMT
#25
Why does it do bonus damage to light? That's what hellions are for.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
September 12 2012 15:48 GMT
#26
like orb says, warhound doesnt need to be patched, it needs to be removed
beep boop
thezanursic
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
5479 Posts
September 12 2012 18:05 GMT
#27
On September 12 2012 02:02 avilo wrote:
At this point they can give the warhound the ability to launch playboy magazines at the enemy and it would have more depth than it currently does.

Well that really wouldn't be effective. I mean in TvT at least both Banshee and Medivac pilots are female unless it gets to BCs it wouldn't get the vehicle to slow down and I really don't know what the Protoss pilots are in to...
http://i45.tinypic.com/9j2cdc.jpg Let it be so!
Pax
Profile Joined August 2010
United States175 Posts
September 12 2012 20:47 GMT
#28
I think up them to 3 supply. Seems weird having such a versatile ability on something with decent hp and damage at just 2 supply.
"Mankind censure injustice fearing that they may be the victims of it, and not because they shrink from committing it." -Plato
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
September 12 2012 22:22 GMT
#29
On September 12 2012 19:48 GolemMadness wrote:
Why does it do bonus damage to light? That's what hellions are for.

The text is in red; the bonus damage only applies if Thor is a hero unit. Then you need bonus to light + air to retain mech's ability to kill mutas without bio upgrades.
Что?
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
September 12 2012 22:35 GMT
#30
On September 12 2012 13:04 aRyuujin wrote:
oh YEAH SHADY IS FEATURED LIKE A BOSS

ot: make warhound -> goliath
make siege tank -> siege tank

make thor something awesome
now you're done and its fuckin awesome

=) thanks!

have to disagree about making WH a carbon copy of goliath tho. Goliath was a pretty dumb/a-movy unit in BW (and, next to the BW dragoon, my least liked unit.)

the thing is that right now mech lacks the ability to reliably come out ahead in engagements when it's sieged up and entrenched. This is a problem because, from an army comparison standpoint, the tradeoff should always go like this, assuming equal tech tiers and resource cost:

more speed <--------------------------> less speed
less power <--------------------------> more power

A sieged up mech position is the slowest army in the game: it has to unsiege, then find a new position without getting attacked along the way (while maneuvering around at 2.25 speed), then siege up again. By this logic, it should wipe the floor with any faster T2 or T3 army if mech is sieged.

Mech is expensive. Also, since the armory is a tier 2 structure (not t1 like evo chamber or forge), 3/3 mech, given how late it comes in the game, should for all intents and purposes be considered t3.

The only t3 armies that can compare with a mech army in expense are a collo/archon/templar/speedzeal army, or a BL/infestor army, or a lategame skyterran army. All of these armies are more mobile than a sieged up mech position, yet they also all win in a head to head fight versus maxed 3/3 tank lines. This means mech is always undesirable as it simply does not do the job of an army (winning fights and/or maintaining map control through mobility) as well as counterparts with the same cost and tech position.

Thats why I propose making the WH like this: because this new WH, from a pure HP/dmg perspective, is cost ineffective, but becomes very cost effective when used to force units to wade through an additional volley or two of tank fire before entering engagement range or forcing swarms of air units to stay spread out versus a mech deathball.
Что?
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
September 12 2012 22:40 GMT
#31
On September 12 2012 09:49 EatThePath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2012 02:02 avilo wrote:
At this point they can give the warhound the ability to launch playboy magazines at the enemy and it would have more depth than it currently does.

This.

@OP: Your suggestion is appealing because anything sounds appealing besides the current warhound at this point. But I don't see how you could sell this to anyone if you restate it as plainly as possible:

      It's a marauder, except it builds from factory and has bonus vs light units instead. And it hits air!!

It's a mass and win stutter step unit just like bio. This game doesn't need more purely mobility impairment (slow/stun) effects, I think everyone has more than had their fill of those.

However, space control effects... that's what everybody wants!

Your suggestion should have been: + Show Spoiler +

      Warhound can cast brief plasma field at a point of your choice.

Mix and match buffs/debuffs besides "slow" for interesting and useful ability. For example, if it's just a slow, that's a very microable unit that can use it to kite (especially when you build up groups to cast successively), but it's also even more synergistic with mech because you place down "don't come here" zones near your tank position.

Another example, units inside the plasma Energize field get a damage buff (like +20%) but whenever a unit inside the plasma attacks, it damages every unit inside the plasma (like 5 damage). This could be cast on top of your units to evaporate zerglings (along with your front line potentially), but you and your opponent can both move-command your troops to prevent firing and taking damage. This again is microable, very choice dependent, and synergizes with "mech". Against closing units you can cast preemptive fields to force them to move in taking fire, back off, or take extra damage while trying to engage (like a pack of marines stimming into tanks... imagine that). On top of that, you can even use it on your own units to buff their damage temporarily. Siege boost anyone? Yamato?

Note that with the Energize example, the Warhound would fill a sorely needed role in mech: anti-zealot. Zealots have two attacks, so 3 zealots attacking once inside the same field is 6 activations, causing 6N damage over the 3 of them, which is 18N or 90 damage. That's half a psi storm, and this is a conservative example!

But anyway, moving warhound deeper into caster territory gives you any number of options. Any of which are better than the current version.


I disagree that this is exactly like the marauder conc shell.

Marauder conc shell, in my view, is made for squad level engagements. 2 or 3 marauders, 8-10 marines versus a handful of opposing units. Marauders slow down chunks of the army and let the marines clean up. Conc shell is not all that great once armies get big, as inevitably there are more targets for "slowing" than the player can effectively target down given limited APM.

On the flip side, this WH slow/stun ability is designed to be most effective in late-game large engagements, because it has a longer cooldown and is AOE.

I think the energize ability would be a pretty decent addition IF the damage didn't affect your units but only enemy units. I'll have to think more about it though.
Что?
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
September 13 2012 02:13 GMT
#32
Thats a strong ability for the midgame for that cost lol
Jaedong :3
Sporadic44
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States533 Posts
September 13 2012 17:39 GMT
#33
source on where they've stated they want positional mech play? I thought part of the warhounds function was intended to avoid stagnation in tvt mech games? could be wrong.

also, is there a reason you think they'd change the thor back to a "hero" unit? didnt think that was really on the table anymore
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
HeeroFX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2704 Posts
September 14 2012 14:43 GMT
#34
I do like the changes you came up with. I doubt blizzard will see them.
EnE
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
417 Posts
September 15 2012 10:55 GMT
#35
TBh, I think the old warhound idea from ages ago someone had was best.

Smokescreen ability. It shoots LOS blocking. This encourages great positional play and skill.
I'm embarrased by my past actions and even more ashamed of my present thoughts and future endeavors to clear my name.
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
September 16 2012 01:09 GMT
#36
I think the problem with the Warhound in general is that by adding battle hellions and refusing to change the Thor, they've created an avenue where the Warhound just doesn't fit into any role.

It can't be an AA unit because Thors are still AA and they've made Widow Mines AA.

It can't the meat and potatoes unit of Mech, because they've made Battle Hellions for that.

It can't even really be the anti-mechanical anti-siege unit that they wanted it to be, because that overlaps with siege tanks, funnily enough. They tried to make it that just by making it ridiculously cost effective and it not only didn't work but was boring.

I think in order to make the Warhound fit, they need to either change Battle Hellions, or change Thors.


Either A:
Remove Battle Hellions and make Warhounds a cheaper 2 supply anti ground Factory unit that doesn't require a Tech Lab, but reduce its stats across the board.

Or B:
Change Thor to a ground-only anti siege unit. Change Strike Cannons so they've got a siege tank comparable range, so that Thors can be used to break siege lines in TvT. Give the things more health/armor and better anti ground stats, remove their anti air attack, and make them cost more.

And then give Warhound an anti air attack and make it the AA unit. Price it similar to a siege tank and make it not as good against ground as a tank, but with a nice AA attack.

Of course then it would just be a Goliath, funnily enough.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Nightsz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada398 Posts
September 16 2012 01:32 GMT
#37
wow wtf, 1.5 second AoE stun? U know what happens in dota when 5 heroes on the same team has an AoE stun?. Well now think of it as like 30 warhounds all with AoE stun.

This is way too imba, even more broken than fungal growth.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
September 16 2012 02:42 GMT
#38
At this point, doesn't it not matter though, since Warhounds have just been removed completely from the game?

I didn't read any official announcements etc or anything, so I'm not sure whether they're planning to replace it with something else or what, though. I do think they should add in something to have some variety in what T can play around with etc.
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
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