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So many late game PvZ, so many broodlords, so many archon toilets, but is there another way. As a protoss player it really feels like if you don't get that mothership late game, against a zerg going broodlords, it is game over. 90% of the time, my strategies revolve around not allowing that zerg to get to the mass broodlord stage, but everyday day zergs are getting better at surviving until that late game composition.
We all know that carriers are never the answer, because the pre-evolved broodlord, eats carriers for breakfast. Stalkers have a really tough time dealing with too many broodlords especially if infestors are in the picture.
Why not go voids? I get they are kinda expensive, but they can hold either own against the corruptors, and can chew through broodlords pretty quickly. It seems toss have never given voids the credit they deserve in battles since the loss of their upgrade.
I have only managed this once, but in a very very long PvZ, I believe I created the ultimate army composition, and roflstomped the zerg. He was at broodlord tech, and instead of the standard collosus stalker ball of death. My army was the beefiest thing ever. Voids, Immortals, Archons, Collosus. I killed the equivalent of 2 armies, and managed to win the game, but the key was I had around 10 voidrays, and with beef of the archons, I was able to just push through.
Again, I only play at diamond level, and my be talking out my ass, since I may not know something that all you guys know, but let me understand why I may be wrong. Voidrays may be the answer for late game PvZ, so then maybe we wont leave a games saying "Congratulations, you play zerg."
Much Luv
DJ Wilma
  
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Canada5377 Posts
Yea Void Ray/Colossus used to be pretty strong and pretty common but zergs eventually learned what an Infestor is and I guess found the hotkey for it or something. Your best bet to make this work is probably trying to enter a gentleman's agreement at the start of the game where you won't make any Templar if he doesnt make Infestors. Worth a shot !
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On July 30 2012 05:03 Bibbit wrote:
Yea Void Ray/Colossus used to be pretty strong and pretty common but zergs eventually learned what an Infestor is and I guess found the hotkey for it or something. Your best bet to make this work is probably trying to enter a gentleman's agreement at the start of the game where you won't make any Templar if he doesnt make Infestors. Worth a shot !
But its really not hard to spread out your void rays, and feedbacks!?!?
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Canada5377 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:05 DJWilma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 05:03 Bibbit wrote:
Yea Void Ray/Colossus used to be pretty strong and pretty common but zergs eventually learned what an Infestor is and I guess found the hotkey for it or something. Your best bet to make this work is probably trying to enter a gentleman's agreement at the start of the game where you won't make any Templar if he doesnt make Infestors. Worth a shot ! But its really not hard to spread out your void rays, and feedbacks!?!?
It totally is that hard. Since there's no air collision (just like real life, thats why plane crashes arent a thing), they're gonna all stack on top of each other unless you move them all with their own control group or something silly like that. All it takes is a single fungal and your entire army is thoroughly boned.
I suppose you could try with feedbacks but that's gonna be mad expensive and probably impossible to execute. Nobody's stopping you from trying and reporting back, though ^^
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On July 30 2012 05:12 Bibbit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 05:05 DJWilma wrote:On July 30 2012 05:03 Bibbit wrote:
Yea Void Ray/Colossus used to be pretty strong and pretty common but zergs eventually learned what an Infestor is and I guess found the hotkey for it or something. Your best bet to make this work is probably trying to enter a gentleman's agreement at the start of the game where you won't make any Templar if he doesnt make Infestors. Worth a shot ! But its really not hard to spread out your void rays, and feedbacks!?!? It totally is that hard. Since there's no air collision (just like real life, thats why plane crashes arent a thing), they're gonna all stack on top of each other unless you move them all with their own control group or something silly like that. All it takes is a single fungal and your entire army is thoroughly boned. I suppose you could try with feedbacks but that's gonna be mad expensive and probably impossible to execute. Nobody's stopping you from trying and reporting back, though ^^
Okay but the things is, I see terrans do vikings all the time, is it just the fact that the vikings have such sick range that allows them to be able to do it?
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No, its because vikings don't have to charge up, have more range, and are faster to produce. IMO mothership is unavoidable.
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United States8476 Posts
Except carriers ARE the answer.
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On July 30 2012 05:20 NrGmonk wrote:
Except carriers ARE the answer.
More so than voidrays. lol
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Canada5377 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:16 DJWilma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 05:12 Bibbit wrote:On July 30 2012 05:05 DJWilma wrote:On July 30 2012 05:03 Bibbit wrote:
Yea Void Ray/Colossus used to be pretty strong and pretty common but zergs eventually learned what an Infestor is and I guess found the hotkey for it or something. Your best bet to make this work is probably trying to enter a gentleman's agreement at the start of the game where you won't make any Templar if he doesnt make Infestors. Worth a shot ! But its really not hard to spread out your void rays, and feedbacks!?!? It totally is that hard. Since there's no air collision (just like real life, thats why plane crashes arent a thing), they're gonna all stack on top of each other unless you move them all with their own control group or something silly like that. All it takes is a single fungal and your entire army is thoroughly boned. I suppose you could try with feedbacks but that's gonna be mad expensive and probably impossible to execute. Nobody's stopping you from trying and reporting back, though ^^ Okay but the things is, I see terrans do vikings all the time, is it just the fact that the vikings have such sick range that allows them to be able to do it?
Yeah range lets them stay back a bit where they can get protected from the Infestors by tanks/marauders. Also a fungal on vikings doesnt hurt as much as on voids. Protoss really wants their gas for other things more than Terran does. Races are different etc
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You can split your air versus fungals, but fungal has a nice radius that can hit a lot of your voids anyway even when not that clumped up whilst also hitting the ground army underneath anyway. Vikings having 9 range helps because then they don't have to move them in to attack the gglords as much so they don't clump as much. Faster acceleration helps as well, it's not a matter of being unable to split but rather a question of "Can I effectively split my voids in time even if I'm good at it?". Infestors are said to be the counter to air for a reason.
Right now it seems the only real way is the very risky archon toilet, unless pure skytoss is utilised simply because only making a few void rays will not do enough to stop the gglords in time. We've seens carriers recently though, which may need to be explored more but with those games we've often seen a risky transtion to go with it.
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On July 30 2012 05:25 LucidityDark wrote:
You can split your air versus fungals, but fungal has a nice radius that can hit a lot of your voids anyway even when not that clumped up whilst also hitting the ground army underneath anyway. Vikings having 9 range helps because then they don't have to move them in to attack the gglords as much so they don't clump as much. Faster acceleration helps as well, it's not a matter of being unable to split but rather a question of "Can I effectively split my voids in time even if I'm good at it?". Infestors are said to be the counter to air for a reason.
Right now it seems the only real way is the very risky archon toilet, unless pure skytoss is utilised simply because only making a few void rays will not do enough to stop the gglords in time. We've seens carriers recently though, which may need to be explored more but with those games we've often seen a risky transtion to go with it.
I can't see carriers ever being the solution though, watching that Squirtle vs Ret game showed use that, am I wrong?
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Check out Creators play style. Day9 did a daily on it a week ago, his PvZ is so good. It doesn't require any sky at all, which I enjoy because I hate using Stargate. It is pretty much just defend & go Mass Blink Stalker\Immortal\Sentry, get +3/+1 & attack around 16 minutes (You should be on 4 bases). Pretty much right before they get broods. I have used it a few times & it is awesome.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 30 2012 05:28 DJWilma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 05:25 LucidityDark wrote:
You can split your air versus fungals, but fungal has a nice radius that can hit a lot of your voids anyway even when not that clumped up whilst also hitting the ground army underneath anyway. Vikings having 9 range helps because then they don't have to move them in to attack the gglords as much so they don't clump as much. Faster acceleration helps as well, it's not a matter of being unable to split but rather a question of "Can I effectively split my voids in time even if I'm good at it?". Infestors are said to be the counter to air for a reason.
Right now it seems the only real way is the very risky archon toilet, unless pure skytoss is utilised simply because only making a few void rays will not do enough to stop the gglords in time. We've seens carriers recently though, which may need to be explored more but with those games we've often seen a risky transtion to go with it. I can't see carriers ever being the solution though, watching that Squirtle vs Ret game showed use that, am I wrong?
You're basing this off a game where Squirtle engaged with 40 supply in stargates and missed both his potential vortexes. There have been around 20ish carrier games in recent memory and Protoss has above a 50% win rate when using them. Carriers are the answer and the future of PvZ. I've been saying it for a year, and the games played recently back this up.
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On July 30 2012 05:28 DJWilma wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 05:25 LucidityDark wrote:
You can split your air versus fungals, but fungal has a nice radius that can hit a lot of your voids anyway even when not that clumped up whilst also hitting the ground army underneath anyway. Vikings having 9 range helps because then they don't have to move them in to attack the gglords as much so they don't clump as much. Faster acceleration helps as well, it's not a matter of being unable to split but rather a question of "Can I effectively split my voids in time even if I'm good at it?". Infestors are said to be the counter to air for a reason.
Right now it seems the only real way is the very risky archon toilet, unless pure skytoss is utilised simply because only making a few void rays will not do enough to stop the gglords in time. We've seens carriers recently though, which may need to be explored more but with those games we've often seen a risky transtion to go with it. I can't see carriers ever being the solution though, watching that Squirtle vs Ret game showed use that, am I wrong?
One game means nothing.
EDIT: 100th post :D
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On July 30 2012 05:37 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2012 05:28 DJWilma wrote:On July 30 2012 05:25 LucidityDark wrote:
You can split your air versus fungals, but fungal has a nice radius that can hit a lot of your voids anyway even when not that clumped up whilst also hitting the ground army underneath anyway. Vikings having 9 range helps because then they don't have to move them in to attack the gglords as much so they don't clump as much. Faster acceleration helps as well, it's not a matter of being unable to split but rather a question of "Can I effectively split my voids in time even if I'm good at it?". Infestors are said to be the counter to air for a reason.
Right now it seems the only real way is the very risky archon toilet, unless pure skytoss is utilised simply because only making a few void rays will not do enough to stop the gglords in time. We've seens carriers recently though, which may need to be explored more but with those games we've often seen a risky transtion to go with it. I can't see carriers ever being the solution though, watching that Squirtle vs Ret game showed use that, am I wrong? You're basing this off a game where Squirtle engaged with 40 supply in stargates and missed both his potential vortexes. There have been around 20ish carrier games in recent memory and Protoss has above a 50% win rate when using them. Carriers are the answer and the future of PvZ. I've been saying it for a year, and the games played recently back this up.
Mind giving some examples?
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United States8476 Posts
Off the top of my head:
Almost every Hasuobs game, including one he played vs Darkforce in the NASL
- Hero vs Dimaga from a long time ago in some EU tourney on Shattered
- Naniwa vs Ret from Red Bull Lan on Daybreak
- Crank vs Freaky on Entombed from GSTL
- JYP vs Dimaga from Dreamhack summer on Daybreak
- Creator vs Sniper on Daybreak from TSL4 qualifer
- Squirtle vs CoCa from IPL Fight Club
Those are all wins for the carrier player; I can name just as many loses. Fact is that it's just like any other strategy. It wins sometimes and loses other times depending on who plays better. The general public just doesn't see it enough to understand it. And every time a carrier player loses, people just QQ about carriers being bad without understanding why the Protoss player loses. It almost never has to do with the fact that the Protoss got carriers. For example, in recent memory some recent loses by carriers:
- Squirtle vs Stephano on Metropolis from Red Bull Battlegrounds: Squirtle was way too far behind anyways and carriers were a last ditch effort.
- Hero vs Annyeong on Entombed from IPL TAC: Hero just picked really shitty engagements
- Creator vs CoCa on Daybreak: Creator got too recall happy and didn't save energy for a vortex; carriers had nothing to do with his loss
- Squirtle vs Ret on Metropolis from TSL4: Squirtle had 6 carriers in production when he engaged. He missed his first vortex and didn't even used his second one.
But tbh, a blog isn't the place to discuss this.
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I second this, I've seen Whitera play sky Toss a lot and it worked very well. Although fragile, it feels very powerful against Stephano style Roach play.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333403
Why has no one thought to post this relevant thread here? I feel it thoroughly discusses your thought of using predominantly void rays in your army composition, albeit at a different way of arriving there and without the robo tech.
Also, having a single carrier or two in your composition can be great for dispersing fire from corruptors. I think they might be the answer.
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EPT
