• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:05
CEST 12:05
KST 19:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy9uThermal's 2v2 Tour: $15,000 Main Event18
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris30Weekly Cups (Aug 11-17): MaxPax triples again!13Weekly Cups (Aug 4-10): MaxPax wins a triple6SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 195
StarCraft 2
General
A Eulogy for the Six Pool Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away 2v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Monday Nights Weeklies
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast Mutation # 486 Watch the Skies Mutation # 485 Death from Below
Brood War
General
Joined effort [ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off No Rain in ASL20? BW General Discussion Flash On His 2010 "God" Form, Mind Games, vs JD
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro24 Group F [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro24 Group E [IPSL] CSLAN Review and CSLPRO Reimagined!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The year 2050 European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
High temperatures on bridge(s) Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment"
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Breaking the Meta: Non-Stand…
TrAiDoS
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
[Girl blog} My fema…
artosisisthebest
Sharpening the Filtration…
frozenclaw
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1209 users

Four Man Round Robin is a Waste of Time

Blogs > mockturtle
Post a Reply
mockturtle
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States220 Posts
July 15 2012 01:19 GMT
#1
Four Man Round Robin is a Waste of Time
Also posted @ http://mcktr.tl


If you watched the first day of Red Bull Battlegrounds, you'll remember a third stream was added on short notice towards the end of the first day in order for all the group stage games to be aired. Games went longer than expected, and the decision was made to start playing more games in tandem than the original plan called for and broadcast the replays after they finished.

Some might call this unavoidable. Starcraft does not have a pre-set time limit, and games can end in just a few minutes or go as long as an hour. When the tournament calls for each match to be a best-of series then not only is the game duration variable but the number of games played is as well. This makes scheduling and organizing a tournament an unpredictable nightmare. This isn't good for anyone. Fans don't know when to tune in to see their favorite player, players in the event aren't sure when their next match will be, and tournament administrators only have so much hair to pull out from stress. It's easy to chalk up a debacle like this to bad luck. But is it just bad luck, or does a bad format share some of the blame?

The Red Bull Battlegrounds tournament used a structure in the first phase of the tournament which was simply wasteful. The idea of splitting players into four man groups and playing a round robin with the top two players advancing has a history with Starcraft dating back to the OSL. However it has been mindlessly misapplied in the western SC2 tournament scene. Four man round robin is almost completely inferior to a simpler, quicker, common alternative. This is something GSL realized over a year ago when they replaced the system's use in Code S's group stage.

GSL switched their group stage to a double elimination bracket or short swiss style tournament. Two pairs of players face off, creating two winners (1-0) and two losers (0-1). The two winners play to decide who advances (2-0) and who plays the consolation match (1-1), while the two losers play to decide who else enters the consolation match (1-1) and who is eliminated in fourth place (0-2). The winner of the consolation match advances in second place (2-1), while the loser is eliminated in third (1-2). Five matches are played in this method, one less than the six required to settle a round robin with the same number of players.

Some in favor of round robin argue that the extra match offers additional games to broadcast for the fans, but this does not strike me as a benefit. We live in a time when there is an overabundance of Starcraft content. There are multiple major organizations putting out content multiple times weekly, along with live streams, minor tournaments and showmatches each day, larger tournaments each weekend, talk shows, and so forth. There is simply more Starcraft related media than any one person could reasonably expect to consume.

It stands to reason that competition organizers should not to try and squeeze every possible minute of Starcraft footage out of each tournament but instead to make every minute as relevant and exciting as possible. Since these round robin groups take place at the earlier stages of the tournament, no tension has been built and the prize is far off in the distance. Saving time by settling the earlier rounds with less games affords the organizer the possibility to increase the number of games later in the tournament when there is more at stake. The DreamHack Summer Open had 56 groups play out before entering the RO16. Playing five series instead of six would skim 56 BO3 series off the schedule. The time saved would allow DreamHack to host longer series during the climactic stages of the tournament instead of using BO3 all the way until the finals, with plenty of time to spare!

A proponent of this group play system would claim that I'm in favor of sacrificing the integrity of the tournament in order to save time, but this isn't the case. In this particular application of round robin, losing two games guarantees elimination before the third game is even played most of the time. To advance after two losses one must not only win his third game, but also hope for the right sequence of results to take place among the other players in the group to create a three way tie. Oftentimes it's clear this isn't even possible before the third match has even begun. Furthermore, since most tournaments ignorantly use criteria to break ties rather than extra games (see another article, Break Ties, Not Hearts), advancing after two losses is even less likely to be possible before the last match is played, let alone actually happen. This suggests that the double elimination method saves time with little loss in accuracy.

In a round robin group the meaning behind the matches is vague. It's clear that losses are bad and wins are good, but precisely which matches or games are the most significant are usually not apparent until the moment has already past. There is little excitement or suspense if the match seems to lack a clear and direct consequence. In the double elimination group, the first loss is recognized as a setback, but not a catastrophe. Two things are made clear: the next game or two games must be won, and neither will take place against the best player in the group.

In a round-robin group, this isn't necessarily the case. Imagine a group where two players are closely matched (B1,B2), another is better and will always win (A) and one is worse and will always lose (C). Regardless of which format, we can expect that A will advance and C will be eliminated. In a round-robin format, B1 and B2 paired in their first or second match would obscure (to each other and the viewers) the fact that the match between them is the key to continuing in the tournament. In the double-elimination format, these two players will always meet in the consolation match to decide second place, regardless of the pairings. Better still, being paired together in the first match will mean the consolation match takes place after they've already played each other and can better adapt to one another. Considering this, one could argue that double elimination is more accurate than round robin when it comes to determining the rightful second and third places.

Double elimination groups will never creates a situation where a meaningless or lopsided match can be played. Every match takes place between two players on equal footing with the same at stake. Round-robin groups can create circumstances where one player will advance and his opponent will be eliminated, regardless of the outcome of their match. Neither player has much incentive to perform at their best and make a game worth watching. Ethics and obligation could motivate the players to go out and play anyway, but why even bother? And who could expect a forlorn player, his hopes demolished only moments earlier with the knowledge that his tournament has ended, to go out and play well even if he wanted to? An even worse circumstance is when the eliminated player is matched up against a player whose chances for advancing is still up in the air -- this gives the player in contention a clear advantage that the other players in the group did not have.

These lopsided scenarios not only degrade the accuracy of a result from a round-robin group, but also provide the opportunity for nefarious players to collude. If in a match between two players there is an outcome where one gains much and the other loses nothing, the players can guarantee that outcome and fix the match. While there is no format that can prevent players from match fixing if they so choose, a round-robin format actually incentivizes it by creating opportunities for a player to enter a match knowing that he can take a dive and still be guaranteed to continue. This is in contrast to other formats, where choosing to lose a match would involve sacrifice. Perhaps even a greater problem than the potential for cheating is that creating these opportunities could cast suspicion on any player involved whether or not they engaged in foul play as long as motive could be argued. Since proving whether or not a match was thrown is virtually impossible, not only is there no way to catch prospective cheaters but also no way to clear an innocent man's name.

OGN's use of four man round robin used single games, not BO3 series, to settle matches. The likely intent behind this structure was that playing single games against multiple opponents was an alternative to a multiple game series against a single opponent. Furthermore, the fact that matches were individual games and took place amongst a highly skilled pool of players greatly increases the likelihood of a tie occuring, in which case OSL always held sudden death matches. While I would still prefer double elimination (so did MBCGame), OGN's application has merit considering its place in a league spanning several months rather than a single weekend and that a single group would play out over several weeks rather than a couple hours.

The method like the one used at DreamHack and Red Bull Battlegrounds is unnecessarily excessive to the point of madness. Whether it is stemming from a misguided attempt for an accurate tournament, a desire to offer players more competition time, or that simply the longer a stream stays live the greater the number of total views, in the end it just creates a poorer product.

Is four man group play with double elimination indisputably the optimal format? Certainly not. However, it would be trivial for any tournament used to or partial to four man groups to choose the double elimination method instead of round-robin. Doing so would do wonders for reducing the length and increasing the quality of the early stages of a competition.

****
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
July 15 2012 01:30 GMT
#2
Excellent analysis, agree completely.
White-Ra fighting!
jpak
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States5045 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-15 01:43:20
July 15 2012 01:42 GMT
#3
But... what about those epic tiebreakers?!!!

Round robins are much more suited for a tournament that spans a longer time (say several weeks) because you KNOW who each player would be playing against from the get-go. This is why OGN uses round robin: get the guaranteed matchups and then build hype based around them. If there are tiebreakers, then those are more matches that can be played and people will watch that extra day of matches to see who breaks out of the group. Dual elimination format in a longer tournament can be a little awkward because of their unpredictable nature. Who would face off in the winner's match? Loser's? The consolation? The ways in which you can promote that group becomes a bit limited.

That being said, for weekend events like that, dual tournament format IS the way to go, if only because of time constraints.
CJ Entusman #50! #1 클템 fan TL!
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
July 15 2012 04:15 GMT
#4
This is legit. More tournaments should do this.
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
comabreaded
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
United States2166 Posts
July 15 2012 04:24 GMT
#5
Totally agreed. I hope GSL style or double elim bracket becomes the norm for these weekend tourneys.
I put the fu in fun
Gofarman
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada645 Posts
July 15 2012 04:44 GMT
#6
I agree with most of what you say, but I have one point I can't shake.

When I run tournaments they are for amateurs and I'm not sure I can justify pairing up people 2x in the same group (double elim 4 man group) especially when you could easily go for the money if you could avoid one particular person. What do you think is the best alternate to d-elim groups?
surfinbird1
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany999 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-15 14:38:03
July 15 2012 14:37 GMT
#7
A mockturtle article without footnotes, what is this? Just kidding, great post. I agree completely and always preferred the MSL system over the OSL's.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
mockturtle
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States220 Posts
July 16 2012 22:00 GMT
#8
On July 15 2012 13:44 Gofarman wrote:
I agree with most of what you say, but I have one point I can't shake.

When I run tournaments they are for amateurs and I'm not sure I can justify pairing up people 2x in the same group (double elim 4 man group) especially when you could easily go for the money if you could avoid one particular person. What do you think is the best alternate to d-elim groups?


I'm actually pretty enthusiastic about encouraging amateur/recreational tournaments. I tend to be very sympathetic to the organizer's point of view and a lot of that is because I know what it's like to try and put on an event that's pretty much for fun with not enough money/space/staff/time (or all of the above).

d-elim groups work well when two people advance. if you just have one person advance, it's not so great. for what you should use, it highly depends on the resources you have available, goal of the tournament (though you said it was for amateurs so, i'm assuming, fun for everyone is the key goal), and the breadth of skill in the players. in general i think using a swiss system or variant would generally be very good for amateur events, because everyone will get to play a bunch of games and they should gravitate towards players similar to their skills. you can respond here or pm me with more details or detailed questions if you want though !
mockturtle
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States220 Posts
July 20 2012 23:58 GMT
#9
On July 15 2012 23:37 surfinbird1 wrote:
A mockturtle article without footnotes, what is this? Just kidding, great post. I agree completely and always preferred the MSL system over the OSL's.


I really like footnotes and want to use them always, I promise. Styling articles takes a lot of time actually (adding links, bolding, tables, etc.), especially since I do it once for my blog and again for the TL forum. Footnotes are particularly time consuming since it adds a lot of work to the editing process as well and isn't super simple to do. Most importantly though I found out that the footnotes don't necessarily work too awesome with things like instapaper, tablets/phones, rss readers, old fashioned copy and paste, etc. Giving myself more work and annoying someone who might want to read it doesn't seem like a good trade. Until I really, really want to use a footnote, that is.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Afreeca Starleague
10:00
Round of 24 / Group F
hero vs Alone
Royal vs Barracks
Afreeca ASL 1375
sctven
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2965
Calm 2476
Jaedong 1380
Rain 937
Bisu 449
EffOrt 395
Flash 387
actioN 245
Larva 233
BeSt 196
[ Show more ]
Pusan 172
ggaemo 126
Mong 125
Nal_rA 106
Backho 103
Soulkey 92
PianO 87
ToSsGirL 65
Hyuk 63
TY 52
soO 39
Liquid`Ret 36
Sharp 25
Hyun 17
ajuk12(nOOB) 17
Sacsri 15
NaDa 15
Killer 14
ZerO 13
ivOry 5
Sexy 5
JulyZerg 4
scan(afreeca) 2
Beast 2
Britney 0
SilentControl 0
Light 0
Dota 2
XaKoH 319
XcaliburYe229
BananaSlamJamma182
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K332
olofmeister226
x6flipin57
Other Games
summit1g7675
singsing1687
ceh9617
Happy266
Fuzer 213
SortOf162
Pyrionflax152
oskar149
crisheroes40
Dewaltoss28
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick570
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 41
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 41
• LUISG 23
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos768
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
13h 56m
The PondCast
23h 56m
WardiTV Summer Champion…
1d
Clem vs Classic
herO vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
1d 13h
LiuLi Cup
2 days
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs herO
Cure vs Rogue
Classic vs HeRoMaRinE
Cosmonarchy
2 days
OyAji vs Sziky
Sziky vs WolFix
WolFix vs OyAji
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Hawk vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Team Hawk vs Team Bonyth
SC Evo League
3 days
TaeJa vs Cure
Rogue vs threepoint
ByuN vs Creator
MaNa vs Classic
Maestros of the Game
3 days
ShoWTimE vs Cham
GuMiho vs Ryung
Zoun vs Spirit
Rogue vs MaNa
[ Show More ]
[BSL 2025] Weekly
3 days
SC Evo League
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
SHIN vs Creator
Astrea vs Lambo
Bunny vs SKillous
HeRoMaRinE vs TriGGeR
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Sziky
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Dewalt vs Team Sziky
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLAN 3
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
ASL Season 20
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 1
Acropolis #4 - TS1
CSL Season 18: Qualifier 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025

Upcoming

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
EC S1
Sisters' Call Cup
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.