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Alright, so after getting unbanned from TL, I began playing more and more SC2. I am a toss, and my best match up is by far is PvT. I use more or less the same openning in every game, and every time I do this build, all the terrans whine, saying I'm an all inning F^$%*T. So I figured I would get your guys opinions.
I simply don't take a fast expo, and just do a 3 gate robo. Once I have 3 stalkers, 4 zealots, and a WP, I push out. If they fast expo'd I can usually just win the game right there. I drop the zealots in their main, and have the stalkers poke at the front. I ALWAYS have a proxy pylon, so depending on their defence I either reinforce with more zealots or sentries. No matter what, I take my natural right after I push out with this small army. I don't do this attack to win the game out right, but just to do some damage. Even if I do very little damage, I still can get my economy up and going, and I use the WP as constant harrassment.
Would you guys consider this all inning? I can win the game before the 10 minute mark a lot of the time, but can still win the game if it goes into the late game. Just want some opinions.
Much Luv,
DJ Wilma ♥
 
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United States10107 Posts
That's not an all-in as long as you are constantly making probes and plan to take an expo behind the attack. If you've cut probes and stuff, then yet this is an all-in. Normally we see people 3 gate - expo - robo. It all depends on how many workers you cut and what you use your chrono on.
Try learning 1 gate core expo to play a more macro game.
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On June 08 2012 09:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
Try learning 1 gate core expo to play a more macro game.
Well if the strategy is working, why stop?
I don't ever cut probes, no point, since I plan on expoing
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United States10107 Posts
On June 08 2012 09:37 DJWilma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 09:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
Try learning 1 gate core expo to play a more macro game. Well if the strategy is working, why stop? I don't ever cut probes, no point, since I plan on expoing
The reason is, to get better. This silly push of yours thats killing players in your league right now will never work in the higher leagues. So time to learn some macro games that will actually help you out compared to this small push.
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If you are having fun there is no need to stop. If you want to try to play high level games in the future, then the only way to get there is to play in a high level style until you are good enough to beat people with it.
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Staying on one base and trying to kill your opponent while delaying your expansion by a lot is an allin. Nothing says that you can't do allins, but that's what it's defined as. So, doing that some is fine, just like I marine/scv allin some or 1/1/1 some, but I'd also learn how to use macro openings. And besides, even Blizzard says that Protoss is stronger in the lategame, so why try to rush it? You have more of an advantage then against Terran compared with mid game.
Also, 2-base pressure like a 6-gate would be worth looking into.
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On June 08 2012 09:37 DJWilma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 09:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
Try learning 1 gate core expo to play a more macro game. Well if the strategy is working, why stop? I don't ever cut probes, no point, since I plan on expoing
This is a pitfall that a lot of players get into. "I'm winning with a strategy, therefore it is good and I should keep doing it." It seems like you are playing to win, rather than to improve. If you just want to win, then sure, you can do whatever you want if it is working. However, if you want to improve and move up, then you need to learn macro games. I would wager that if your push is held off without the Terran taking too much damage, then you are probably behind.
It seems like you are doing a half-baked all in. A one base timing attack where you don't cut probes. Your attack is weaker than an all in, but it's not as strong as one. Going in the middle is usually a bad idea since your attack will usually be too weak to do any damage against stronger players and your macro would be weaker than if you expanded. Worst of both worlds. Either all-in, or learn the play a good macro game. Don't try to do both and have a weaker version of both of them.
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What you described is an all-in. Stop trying to justify it by saying I do damage so therefore its not all in.
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To the above posters, playing a "high level style" isn't the same as doing blind abusive macro builds without reacting at all to what your opponent is doing. WP harass should be taxing your multitask a lot more than sitting around spending money perfectly with no sense of timing.
Of course it's not an all-in just because the losing players complained? They also called you a faggot, but you didn't make this blog with questions about your sexuality, so why take seriously their claim that you're all-inning? It's just basic tilted ladder players. But in the interest of improving, there's a difference between winning and being good at a matchup, so I'd think about playing with other builds and styles, especially other ways to be aggressive.
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On June 08 2012 09:37 DJWilma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 09:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
Try learning 1 gate core expo to play a more macro game. Well if the strategy is working, why stop? I don't ever cut probes, no point, since I plan on expoing
This strategy won't work at higher levels, if you want proof you can play me and I'll show you why. A 1-gate expo is a much better opening build order than the one your using currently.
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Unless you are playing as macro oriented as possible, you're either playing an all in style or inefficiently. So either you are playing all in or you are playing inefficient. Its likely a combination of both.
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United States10107 Posts
On June 08 2012 10:18 oBlade wrote:
To the above posters, playing a "high level style" isn't the same as doing blind abusive macro builds without reacting at all to what your opponent is doing. WP harass should be taxing your multitask a lot more than sitting around spending money perfectly with no sense of timing.
Of course it's not an all-in just because the losing players complained? They also called you a faggot, but you didn't make this blog with questions about your sexuality, so why take seriously their claim that you're all-inning? It's just basic tilted ladder players. But in the interest of improving, there's a difference between winning and being good at a matchup, so I'd think about playing with other builds and styles, especially other ways to be aggressive.
No, but the build he is demonstrating is clearly not a high level of play. and if he cant properly macro at the higher levels, what good will micro be if he won't have any units? If you are working on just beating people with the way you are, then fine, continue. But if you want to get better, learn standard openings like the 1 gate expo build and stuff so that once you reach those higher levels, you'll be prepared instead of throwing something pitiful at them like this semi-all-in.
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You are doing a 1 base push into a late second expansion, If you don't do enough damage with your push then you will be too far behind and lose the game, if you play good players and this is all you do game after game then you will sooner or later start losing with it since they will take an ultra fast second and then just defend until you have to expand and then they will roll you over.
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Only macro openers work in higher leagues? You've never seen a pro allin? You've never seen a pro cheese? I'm honestly confused as to most of the above posters sentiments
Just keep refining the build, I think its a cool idea
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On June 08 2012 11:08 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Only macro openers work in higher leagues? You've never seen a pro allin? You've never seen a pro cheese? I'm honestly confused as to most of the above posters sentiments
Just keep refining the build, I think its a cool idea
Well it's not a good all-in. It's half-assed because you're expanding behind it and not trying to win the game. So it puts you behind.
So unless the OP is doing a harass build to kill workers & equalize the economy, or doing a very clever timing to put the player behind in certain tech/infrastructure/ect, it isn't a very good build.
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On June 08 2012 11:08 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Only macro openers work in higher leagues? You've never seen a pro allin? You've never seen a pro cheese? I'm honestly confused as to most of the above posters sentiments
Just keep refining the build, I think its a cool idea
Problem is that he needs to mix it up, right now it sounds like this is all he does every game thus it becomes too predicable.
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So many bad posts.. It works, keep doing it till it doesn't and enjoy yourself
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On June 08 2012 11:01 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 10:18 oBlade wrote:
To the above posters, playing a "high level style" isn't the same as doing blind abusive macro builds without reacting at all to what your opponent is doing. WP harass should be taxing your multitask a lot more than sitting around spending money perfectly with no sense of timing.
Of course it's not an all-in just because the losing players complained? They also called you a faggot, but you didn't make this blog with questions about your sexuality, so why take seriously their claim that you're all-inning? It's just basic tilted ladder players. But in the interest of improving, there's a difference between winning and being good at a matchup, so I'd think about playing with other builds and styles, especially other ways to be aggressive. No, but the build he is demonstrating is clearly not a high level of play. and if he cant properly macro at the higher levels, what good will micro be if he won't have any units? If you are working on just beating people with the way you are, then fine, continue. But if you want to get better, learn standard openings like the 1 gate expo build and stuff so that once you reach those higher levels, you'll be prepared instead of throwing something pitiful at them like this semi-all-in.
He is not going to go instantaneously from "I am beating everyone with the first attack in this build" to "I am losing every game because I can't build units."
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All-ins rely on doing damage to equalize for your delayed expansion. After your attack, if you are behind because your attack didn't do damage, then it's a form of an all-in.
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its not all in, but with the current meta game its definatly a very aggressive opening. Lets say you were to do that against someone who 1 rax which is standard and you didnt do damage and then took an expo youd be pretty bad in economy. i would at least encorage you to try some quicker expand builds as they can be just as fun. glhf man
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As far as I understand an all in, is where you cut workers, put everything into army production, and attack and never intend to expand, and your attack is designed to kill or mortally wound.
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Ee Han Timing and all-in are two totally different things. You are fine. Keep it up 
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On ladder, to become better as fast as possible you should try to win as much as possible. This will raise your mmr and playing higher level players = you learn more. If the strategy you are doing is all-in or stupid or makes you prefer same-sex relationships doesn't matter, you will improve playing against better players and not by doing macro builds against noobs. Sooner or later you will notice your strategies not working, and as soon as you figure out why they are not working you can adapt. Changing your strategy while you are still winning is retarded as fuck.
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On June 08 2012 11:51 MateShade wrote:
So many bad posts.. It works, keep doing it till it doesn't and enjoy yourself
I agree. Many posters here seem to be answering a different question to the one the blogger asked.
The strategy is not all-in, but it is aggressive.
Often it can be difficult for newer players to understand what "all-in" means because it gets thrown around by so many different players. The most common and typical way an all-in strategy is interpreted is: where you cut your economy BIG TIME, either in terms of workers, bases or both, and you play very aggressively. If blocked you are usually toast. A typical mistake people make is that while all all-ins are aggressive playstyles, not all aggressive playstyles are all-in.
Your strategy continues probe production and expands, so it is 100% not all-in.
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On June 08 2012 12:45 OmniEulogy wrote:Ee Han Timing and all-in are two totally different things. You are fine. Keep it up
word
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Well that's definitely an all-in. If you don't do significant damage you will lose to a counter push when medivacs come out. You will literally just get torn apart.
However by all means keep using it until it doesn't work. When it stops working figure out why and then think about trying a different strategy or tweaking it to make it continue to work.
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Basically I shouldn't really be questioning that strats I'm doing until the higher leagues? Okay, I'll try and get to Masters before the end of summer, and than readdress this issue.
You guys rock, thanks for the input ♥
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Well you can adjust now or later. It's up to you.
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Go ahead and do whatever works for you.
There are a lot of builds that rely on doing damage to a fast expanding player, or at least delaying his econ/tech a little such as the Cloakshee expand in TvT. The key is that they're not all-in, and can easily transition into a macro game, while still being very powerful in the early game.
Keep in mind, however, you will get losses and a lot of people will BM you/tell you to stop and play a 'real game' with 1gate FE or similar. However, builds like these are great for improving IMO, since they train multitasking, macro while micro in the early game which you start in, and are very good in a BoX.
gl hf
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I think it's time for you to bask in your Terran opponents' tears, and take pride in your homosexuality, even if you're not actually homosexual. Psychological effect, and all.
On June 08 2012 09:29 DJWilma wrote:
but can still win the game if it goes into the late game. This is pretty significant, because it possibly means that you already know how to macro.
Whether or not you'll lose to better players in the future with this strategy doesn't matter. Sure, it'll definitely happen, but that's true for any strategy. If it happens, then you can improve your build or try something new. It's not like you're flying and you'll hit a wall and fall to your death, there's no problem if you find a new strategies later if your current strategy isn't working and you're losing.
Why do people assume that people who push early game can't macro? They should consider that the push only works with superior macro.
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You bulldog in SC2! Haha. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bulldog_(vs._Terran)
One thing you could try is doing the same build off of a 1 gate FE, if you want to focus on macro more. That might even allow you to get a pretty fast third in some situations.
Think of it as the protoss version of how terrans moved on from 7:30 stim timings into 10:00 stim/medivac timings. The latter wins fewer games outright, but wins more games overall at a high level.
Keep experimenting, gl on the ladder, etc.
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It's all in to a point. If you lose that army you are done you lose no way you can come back unless the terran player dies or something. You have to do damage, if you do 0 damage you are pretty much screwed as well. So essentially yes it is all in as if you lose your army and do no damage you instant lose and if you decide not to attack well you are very behind due to doing no damage anyway.
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Every 1 rax FE will crush this build if properly dealt with. If you don't do damage, you lose against a 1 rax FE. It's pretty much an all in. Don't worry tho all these builds all ins are stupidly hard to deal with even in high master. Just keep all ining. It will win you plenty of games.
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As someone has already said; if your goal is to win games, keep doing this by all means. If your goal is to improve and become the best possible player that you can be, I'd suggest focusing on a more macro-oriented style as your go-to build.
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EPT
