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On April 24 2012 05:06 Cyx. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 04:12 JingleHell wrote:
Yknow, I hear this a lot, but I'm curious just how many of the people saying that have spent much time in Bronze league? There's a significant difference between a Diamond/Masters level player tanking to Bronze and then working their way back out, and trying to gradually improve across the same difference when there's literally no sane metagame. I will tell you from experience that it doesn't really require anything special to get out of bronze. I started SC2 with absolutely zero RTS experience (or really any competitive game at all), got stuck in bronze, learned when to build a bunker and when to expand, and found that I had way more shit than everyone else in my league for a while (when I still played terran). Then I switched to zerg after getting promoted to silver and went up to plat over the course of the next few months. All it took was learning to build a few extra bunkers and expand a bit. It didn't take any real paradigm shift in the way I played, nor did it take a different set of skills than the ones I refined to jump from silver - platinum. Just keep practicing =)
I'll second this. I picked up SC2 a few months ago, also with zero RTS experience. I don't play very frequently, I play on a laptop keyboard, and I like to play when I'm drunk, so I was in bronze for longer than anyone should be (about 200 games, and most of two ladder seasons). But I got out eventually, just by doing the same build every game and improving my mechanics.
One thing I'd add is that I think low level players under-appreciate the virtues of using "cheesy" or "all-in" builds at lower levels, because they misconstrue what constitutes cheesy or all-in play. I got out of bronze with a 3-rax build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=299901), which would be pretty all-in at higher levels. But at bronze, it's just a solid early aggression build that transitions into an expansion at about 7:30--which is still earlier than most bronzies expand. And you have lots of early army, so you're safer against weird early rushes. It was only when I started to meet opponents who could early expand and hold my aggression that I started to work on fast expand builds myself.
I agree that you shouldn't worry about scouting in bronze though, beyond checking army compositions. You can't read those players the way you would with someone who knows what they're doing.
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This blog got me into perspective at my poker play. Now I'm ashamed about everything I said @ playing microstakes  .
Geez, how stupid my posts must've looked to people who were beyond micro's. I guess bluffing into a calling station is the equivalent of shoving a roach max into 1base 40 cannons on ramp.
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P.S.> No, it's okay that they're playing 'a different game'. You can still own them with a standard strategy, superior mechanics, and a reactive approach to their bullshit strategies. Keypoint is that "you'll always have much, much more stuff". This applies way past bronze, too.
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I have updated my OP. I suggest reading that bit for perspective. This was NOT intended to be some sort of bad strat forum post outside the strat forum. It wasn't for discussion of how I can improve, and it wasn't for tired rhetoric about how to improve.
All further responses operating under these assumptions will receive a blog ban, because quite frankly, it's easier than trying to explain 3 times per page which parts of the OP the people replying had to have skipped entirely.
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when i was coaching my roomate, i made him play like he was playing dimaond players ( he was orginially in bronze moved up to gold!, macros like a boss but has absolutley no micro, but i made him focus on reacting to his opponent. I emphasized scouting scouting scoutin because bronze players do the weirdest things, but i reminded him that if you know what your opponent is doing then you can counter their builds, if they turltle expand everywhere, and try to understand how many units they have.
masters level (:
i dunno if i helped :O
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On April 24 2012 04:45 JingleHell wrote:
As much as I want to improve, I want to improve by playing the game, at least at this point. I enjoy playing it, but I'm not good enough to enjoy solo practice much yet. Playing in bronze is as close as you can get to solo practice without it actually being solo practice. It's like playing squash against a baby.
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On April 24 2012 03:15 JingleHell wrote:
I'm sure if I played like a Bronze, I could probably get out of Bronze faster
This statement exemplifies the type of thinking that seems to go on in bronze league.
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I found it helpful when I was in your situation to simply ignore the ladder and find people to practice with that won't do ridiculous all-ins or build 40 cannons every game. Play enough with like minded individuals around your skill level or slightly higher and it will do wonders for your play. By the time you come back to ladder you will be good enough to get out of bronze simply by having far superior mechanics and game sense.
Maybe start a practice group of 3 or 4 people and rotate playing games and obsing. Copy some good builds and learn from each other.
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On April 24 2012 05:42 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:15 JingleHell wrote:
I'm sure if I played like a Bronze, I could probably get out of Bronze faster This statement exemplifies the type of thinking that seems to go on in bronze league.
Indeed.
There is no "Bronze hell"
You can do ANYTHING in bronze league and win, as long as you do it well and have a plan.
You don't have to prepare or practice for "random or dumb stuff" because things like that instantly lose, to anything.
You think pros know how to deal with a guy who goes 10 cannons in main into 4 stargate carrier specifically? NO
They just make stuff and go LOL and kill him.
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I rate this blog a 5 and every single comment a 1.
The level of pompous-asshole-ness in this thread is astounding. "I don't wanna insult you but.... BLAH BLAH BLAH I DIDN'T READ JACK SHIT let me spew unrelated nonsense."
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I have faith in you Jingle, you can make it out of bronze, i know you can.
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You're playing the same game in bronze. I don't mean to insult anyone but if you're having trouble in bronze then you probably should be there until you improve through ladder or customs. These silly stories about 30 cannons or 1 base carrier games... it is still your fault if you don't respond correctly. That stuff is incredibly easy to counter.
On a side note, it'll be interesting to see how the lower leagues improve as time goes by. You can improve and still be in a lower league since over time people do improve at different rates.
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If you think I never get 7 pooled or play against drunk people in diamond then you are mistaken
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perhaps you should value scouting and playing to win higher than playing 'right'. basically its idra syndrome, albeit at a much lower level. you have preexisting ideas about what correct play is and you have ideas about how that should be beaten, when in reality a more useful skill is identifying the flaws of anyones play. if they are going 1 base carrier? go fucking kill them. thats always the correct response no matter if you are in GM or bronze. you can only macro in games that are indusive to macro, hes going 14 pool? well you can 14 hatch to take advantage of that, but dont 14 hatch every game then demand they play in a way that your hatch makes sense.
its all about perspective really.
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On April 24 2012 05:52 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:42 HardlyNever wrote:On April 24 2012 03:15 JingleHell wrote:
I'm sure if I played like a Bronze, I could probably get out of Bronze faster This statement exemplifies the type of thinking that seems to go on in bronze league. Indeed. There is no "Bronze hell" You can do ANYTHING in bronze league and win, as long as you do it well and have a plan. You don't have to prepare or practice for "random or dumb stuff" because things like that instantly lose, to anything. You think pros know how to deal with a guy who goes 10 cannons in main into 4 stargate carrier specifically? NO They just make stuff and go LOL and kill him.
Speaking from experience as a guy who was once Bronze and got promoted, I have to completely agree. I sorta had the same problem, when I saw people doing stupid stuff, I thought to all-in to punish their bad play. Sadly, my all-ins were just as bad and I did not succeed all of the time. I did eventually learn how to macro and that helped me escape bronze league.
Again speaking from experience, I don't think that the game being played so much differently was such a large problem in bronze. For the most part, at least for me, players did play "correctly" but what made them so bad was kind of how exaggerated their mistakes were. For example, queuing up several workers.
I soon learned if you play enough games, and play straight macro each game, you will occasionally play those weirdos in those strange games, but your macro will handle it fine. The few games that are so strange that seem like "a different game" won't occur enough for it to make a big difference. You may lose say 10 of those, but the games that were played non-cheesy, just "exaggerated standard" you will win easily.
This is how it worked for me at least. It's really hard to explain, I don't think I did such a good job of it really.
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I read your whole blog, ok? Don't get mad at me.
You have a misunderstanding of what 'standard' StarCraft is. In SC2 or in BW it doesn't matter, you are reacting to your opponent. Do you play super safe and play a practiced build order vs someone who spent their first 1k minerals on cannons in their main? No. You expand twice and take advantage of their lack of offensive ability. That's not gonna make you worse at SC2 when you move up a league, that's gonna give you a brain to think with when you play.
At bronze league we are talking about people who hardly know how to use the interface, who don't know the priorities of what to do with their limited apm, and who are just generally experimenting and using strategies that helped them to beat the computer in single player. Imagine a 6 year old playing a video game for the first time and you have to explain to them how the d pad corresponds to moving Mario left and right. That is bronze SC2. I guess that's more of a response to Gheed's 15 blogs, but you might as well hear it too.
It has nothing to do with mechanics or metagame and everything to do with just learning what strategy in an RTS is. Your opponent's offense is hindered? Expand / tech, take adv of it somehow. Your opponent uses all his workers and lings to attack? Build defensive structures that will deflect it easily and come out with a superior economy because you saw it coming. Two spines or whatever it is in SC2. IT'S OK. Cheese will exist at all levels of the game and it isn't different in bronze, it's just not as intelligent. The concepts you learn to defeat these strategies will hold thru into Masters and beyond, they just become better executed and more intelligent.
I guess you are thinking 'well if I just 6pool every game I will probably make it out of bronze' and you're thinking that's the only solution and you won't learn anything or get better at mechanics. Erase that thought from your mind and think about beating the individual you are playing, not the entire league.
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On April 24 2012 06:30 Chef wrote:
I read your whole blog, ok? Don't get mad at me.
You have a misunderstanding of what 'standard' StarCraft is. In SC2 or in BW it doesn't matter, you are reacting to your opponent. Do you play super safe and play a practiced build order vs someone who spent their first 1k minerals on cannons in their main? No. You expand twice and take advantage of their lack of offensive ability. That's not gonna make you worse at SC2 when you move up a league, that's gonna give you a brain to think with when you play.
At bronze league we are talking about people who hardly know how to use the interface, who don't know the priorities of what to do with their limited apm, and who are just generally experimenting and using strategies that helped them to beat the computer in single player. Imagine a 6 year old playing a video game for the first time and you have to explain to them how the d pad corresponds to moving Mario left and right. That is bronze SC2. I guess that's more of a response to Gheed's 15 blogs, but you might as well hear it too.
It has nothing to do with mechanics or metagame and everything to do with just learning what strategy in an RTS is. Your opponent's offense is hindered? Expand / tech, take adv of it somehow. Your opponent uses all his workers and lings to attack? Build defensive structures that will deflect it easily and come out with a superior economy because you saw it coming. Two spines or whatever it is in SC2. IT'S OK. Cheese will exist at all levels of the game and it isn't different in bronze, it's just not as intelligent. The concepts you learn to defeat these strategies will hold thru into Masters and beyond, they just become better executed and more intelligent.
I guess you are thinking 'well if I just 6pool every game I will probably make it out of bronze' and you're thinking that's the only solution and you won't learn anything or get better at mechanics. Erase that thought from your mind and think about beating the individual you are playing, not the entire league.
You didn't read the blog I wrote, and especially not the replies (mine included), if you managed to think this is somehow applicable.
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I actually think you are pretty right, when I was in bronze (oh those dark days of yore...) I learned strategies to win in bronze but as I was promoted out into silver, and eventually into diamond, I found those strategies no longer worked. The way I thought the game should be played was not how it could be played.
These stopped working not because of the change in my skill level but in the 'meta-game' I find in the middling leagues, plat and diamond, the meta-game reflects the professional one (as much as it can) while in lower leagues, and bronze in particular, the meta-game reflects the ideas I hear people suggest when they are so high they don't know their own names. "What about a one base broodlord all-in?" anyone who seriously plays at higher levels would laugh at that but I've seen it happen in bronze and, incredibly, at the time I could lose to it.
Bronze is its own animal, one I'm glad to have left behind.
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On April 24 2012 06:39 Promethelax wrote:
I actually think you are pretty right, when I was in bronze (oh those dark days of yore...) I learned strategies to win in bronze but as I was promoted out into silver, and eventually into diamond, I found those strategies no longer worked. The way I thought the game should be played was not how it could be played.
These stopped working not because of the change in my skill level but in the 'meta-game' I find in the middling leagues, plat and diamond, the meta-game reflects the professional one (as much as it can) while in lower leagues, and bronze in particular, the meta-game reflects the ideas I hear people suggest when they are so high they don't know their own names. "What about a one base broodlord all-in?" anyone who seriously plays at higher levels would laugh at that but I've seen it happen in bronze and, incredibly, at the time I could lose to it.
Bronze is its own animal, one I'm glad to have left behind.
Yeah, I've seen so many random-ass things lately. A protoss expanding to my natural third with blink stalker play that never went anywhere, Voidray harass with 0 cannons, no wall, no units, and no expo, a 12 Evo, 14 spore, 14 pool, no expand build.... That last one GGed when I showed up inside his base with speedlings at the 5 minute mark for some reason...
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Hey JingleHell, how many games do you tend to play a season? And I'm not asking for MMR purposes
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On April 24 2012 06:47 Hulavuta wrote:
Hey JingleHell, how many games do you tend to play a season? And I'm not asking for MMR purposes
Uhhh, until a few days ago, I hadn't played since... season 2?
And 1v1 games, not a whole lot. I've kept getting distracted by other shit releasing, and now there's nothing good out to play, I'm finally starting to play. I think the last week or so may be my highest concentration of 1v1 games ever, at around 30ish.
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EPT
