• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:31
CEST 12:31
KST 19:31
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO12 Preview: Maru, Trigger, Rogue, NightMare12Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, sOs, Reynor, Solar15[ASL19] Ro8 Preview: Unyielding3Official Ladder Map Pool Update (April 28, 2025)17[ASL19] Ro8 Preview: Rejuvenation8
Community News
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A Results (2025)2$1,250 WardiTV May [May 6th-May 18th]4Clem wins PiG Sty Festival #66Weekly Cups (April 28-May 4): ByuN & Astrea break through1Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game29
StarCraft 2
General
5Technique Use to Coinbase Customer Service Number Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A Results (2025) How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Code S RO12 Preview: Maru, Trigger, Rogue, NightMare Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S:Season 1 - RO12 - Group A INu's Battles#12 < ByuN vs herO > [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 1 - RO12 - Group B GSL 2025 details announced - 2 seasons pre-EWC 2025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)
Strategy
[G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed Mutation # 470 Certain Demise Mutation # 469 Frostbite
Brood War
General
OGN to release AI-upscaled StarLeague from Feb 24 Battlenet Game Lobby Simulator Does Sage Have 24 hour Support [G] GenAI subtitles for Korean BW content BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[CSLPRO] $1000 Spring is Here! [ASL19] Ro8 Day 4 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
[G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player Creating a full chart of Zerg builds [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Grand Theft Auto VI Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Elon Musk's lies, propaganda, etc. Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Books] Wool by Hugh Howey Surprisingly good films/Hidden Gems
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard? Logitech mx518 cleaning.
TL Community
BLinD-RawR 50K Post Watch Party The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
What High-Performing Teams (…
TrAiDoS
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
BW PvZ Balance hypothetic…
Vasoline73
Test Entry for subject
xumakis
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10725 users

[SPL SPOILER] BR - For all you TvT fans

Blogs > dongfeng
Post a Reply
dongfeng
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
731 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-09 01:47:13
April 09 2012 01:39 GMT
#1
It's been a while since I watched TvT. Hell, it's been a while since I watched BW. After reading the spoilers and finding out SKT beat KT 4:3, I thought I'd get off my lazy ass and find out how the f did flash lose TWICE on the same day?

When I was on/off the TL scene, I was aware enough of flashs 13? win streak, the meme thread, Flash = God etc, so I watched both his losses. The Bisu game I watched first based on the fact that it was around 2am and I didn't feel like a TvT. It was exciting yes, mechanically and tactically fun, but no core = speedzeal wasn't the most gratifying win for me even though I am a SKT fanboy. I believe that flash could have definitely prevented that and won on (what I've heard to be) an imbalanced map.

What better way to reinspire myself with bw strategy than TvT? Now by no means I am a proficient TvT player, actually its my most terrible matchup and I had to PvT for a while. But while watching this game I was mentally taking notes and halfway on I decided to actually write a blog about it to hopefully hear what you guys have to think and to put my thoughts down on paper (another thing I've been learning - putting stuff on paper makes it tangible, concrete and easily able to analyse as opposed to a melting pot of ideas in the head).

So from what I understand, flash is definitely the better player. I haven't seen Fanta's recent TvT but know however that Fanta has been playing well this season. Flash (730) has an early scout in Fanta's (1030) base and expands with bunker. Fanta keenly places his fact outside of his base to prevent Flash scouting/psyching Flash for a possible proxy fact, Flash reacts accordingly and uses barracks to wall. Fanta is now able to float his rax instead and get some crucial scouting information (the good ol' barracks races - who can reach the opponents base first with their rax?). Fanta wisely does not use first vult to poke given Flash's reaction and is gearing up for a 4 vult drop. Here the builds diverge - 1 paek 1 star for Fanta vs 2 paek for Flash. The initial vult can definitely punish a greedier build, but I have no knowledge on travel distances etc given I haven't played BW in years and I haven't studied the map.

Flash's initial composition was perfect in defending the drop suffering basically zero losses. Fanta quickly follows up with 2 more and these 2 vults do a shitton more damage - really punishing flash for thinking danger was over. Flash showed good recognition however of Fanta's low tank count and pushed out for a semi contain.

Here's the unbelievable thing. I always thought that in TvT he who has more tanks wins. But Fanta was able to mitigate this by:
a) splitting flashs tanks by not allowing flash to reinforce via tanks on the reinforcement path
b) using his early star for cloaked wraith to abuse low gol count

Fanta was then able to crack the contain and push down and counter-contain Flash. Flash then sets up the maginot line facing Fantasys base, slightly facing counterclockwise. Fantasy with good awareness deals some damage to the east side as it protrudes slightly (a salient I believe its called?)

Fantasy then does a few things at once. He builds an ebay at the expo between them. He takes his own 3rd. His vults mine the east and also flash's 3rd preventing flash from expanding his influence east. Flash showing great awareness waiting for army support before maynard, and has built up sufficient air (in valks) to combat fantasy as Fantasy was flashing some wraiths to see if he could abuse flash's tank only composition on the ground (pun not intended).

But now Fanta is able to contain Flash from both the North and East, and is taking a 4th. Flash able to sneak vults and see Fanta's 4th as well as marauding Fanta's 3rd at 12. Fanta is able to defend by pulling scv's and using wraiths to quickly reduce the vult count. Fanta counters by dropping Flash's 3rd at 6 o clock and also delays Flash's 4th with vults. Here's another thing I noticed - Flash seemed flustered/extremely busy when the camera zoomed in on him. From the matches I watch of him (albeit quite a while ago) he always looked extremely calm and collected even though his eyes were moving constantly. Flash ddint seem his normal self allowing fanta to dictate the pace of play.

Fanta now proactively has divided the map in his favor by giving him the 2 critical expos at 3 and 9. Flash knows he has to do something and goes for a 3 ship cliff drop with valks to tank the turret fire. Somehow this drop at Fanta's nat doesn't do much, Fanta has had a sizeable number of cloaked wraiths and a late scan by Flash means the drop was negated. Fanta has vultures at Flash's 4th and the two are trading blows continuously. This is definitely not a passive TvT!

Another thing with this game is that Fanta is adding expos before Flash (exception of the natural). Flash seems to be doing a lot of things out of the ordinary (in a bad way).

Flash also has a fuckton of valks, meaning a fuckton of gas - I'm not sure if Fanta had multiple ports at this stage. The Tank wraith vs dropship play is quite nice to behold, I much prefer this to the old school dropship vs dropship. Given that Flash's starports have been quite active, Fanta has the larger ground army and initiates a rolling siege into Flashs maginot line and manages to eke out some territorial gain for a decent army trade.

Flash is basically defending 3 places, his natural, the southern channel leading to the 2 southern bases and the 4/430 natural. Fantasy is able to mobilise his entire army to break through one of these 3 places and the relative army size at that given location at that given point in time means Fantasy is able to suffer 50/50 losses while attacking subverting the traditional defenders advantage.

Flash knows this and is concentrating his power for a doom drop. While Fanta is busy harassing 4/430 Flash somehow finds an air corridor and unloads in Fanta's main. Dual armories go down. Facts go down. Depots go down. Somehow Fanta doesn't panic, sac's his main and pressures Flash's 4/430 while expanding his infrastructure at 1/130, adding mass starports.

Flash stays on the initiative and cliff's 1/130 - this is what Flash needs to do. The game is much more even. The two keep trading blows, but Fanta has slowly built up sufficient wraith count to be annoying as fuck. Flash switches furiously to gol production but Fanta's wraiths doing a fuckton of damage, Flash's 3-0 ups while suited for a ground fight are not optimal vs low damage wraiths. Fanta breaks up to the 430 main and does a manner dmatrix when Flash decides to fight the tank's with scv's. 530 falls soon after.

Fanta's mines are also much more effective given that Flash has used a lot of scan vs cloaked wraith. Flash tries to counter 3 o clock but Fanta has too many mining base, and you know that he knows he's won when u get the zoom in booth shot. Fanta has wraiths inside Flash main and its GG.

Fanta celebrates like he's won an OSL and who can blame him - he just slayed the god of bw.

PS: I clicked preview blog and had to relogin - lost all my final paragraphs + edits. Is this a recurring issue?

***
slytown
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Korea (South)1411 Posts
April 09 2012 01:54 GMT
#2
Flash basically got outplayed. He had a losing record in the playoffs, so pretty epic.
The best Flash meme ever: http://imgur.com/zquoK
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
April 09 2012 04:29 GMT
#3
I think hoejja stole flash's food.
Jaedong :3
Sephy90
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1785 Posts
April 09 2012 04:37 GMT
#4
Every single match was so good!! I wanted Flash to lose when he said that no one on SKT was on his level yet I felt really sad with how upset Flash felt at the end. I'm still glad he lost though. Also, was Flash supposed to race change if KT won the finals?
"So I turned the lights off at night and practiced by myself"
Louuster
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2869 Posts
April 09 2012 04:57 GMT
#5
Game was very good before the doom drop then everything became crazy after it happened, so many starports lol
Kim Taek Yong fighting~
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3126 Posts
April 09 2012 09:20 GMT
#6
I think when fantas dropped his men at 9 while breaking the tanks with wraiths is when he got his first major advantage since he managed to kill a lot of tanks really early. From then on out flash had to attack from a really awkward angle to pressure fanta and had the risk of losing even more units to mines.

I find it really funny that at pro level that thing can still happen where your winning all game long and then your opponent just picks his whole fukin army up and drops it in your base and almost makes a comeback.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
April 09 2012 11:14 GMT
#7
FvF always delivers.
It's the best TvT we've seen since Big File MSL semis finals.
Fantasy's play was really brilliant. I was a little afraid that a single doom drop would cost him the game after slowly grinding Flash since the beginning. I was in the bleachers eating hot dogs during this game. It was so perfect lol.
ॐ
dongfeng
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
731 Posts
April 09 2012 12:49 GMT
#8
Re the doom drop yea i cant even begin to think what was going through fantas mind.. here im outplayibg the best bw player on earth and he kills all my supplies facts and armories. If it was an osl final i wonder if fanta would hace reacted worse.
bITt.mAN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Switzerland3691 Posts
April 12 2012 00:35 GMT
#9
If you want I'll do a battle report of it, basically oozing gooey praise over my favorite player, Fantasy, and how he played perfectely, but it took so long cause it was vs Flash, even when Fantasy was perfectly prepared. Wait, did I say he played perfectly? Yea.

Just about right. Fantasy's opener was perfect, but Flash saw it coming and held it off even better. Fantasy's decision to elevator his units out once those 5 tanks contained, and to wait for wraiths instead, meant that he A. Gained a lot of ground and B. got a unit advantage once the 5 got cleaned up, giving him the majority of the map. He expanded faster, and he did a good job on continually harassing Flash's expos and preventing those from getting down. Flash did some good vulture usage. No, make that ONE good vulture usage. That drop flash did was nice until you realise he could have easily tanked those turrets with an ebay or rax, and spend much less gass on valks and more on wraiths, lest alone dropships (that point where he had no air-to-ground but like 6valks once the cliff was almost cleaned up - lol).

That drop from Flash was jaw-dropping, I was scared it would work. It was the perfect thing to do, he also found the perfect path to pull it off, but he didn't take the bottom right expos fast or well enough (again, continued harass, and Fantasy didn't even DROP vultures in the bottom right main, he just ran them). The d-matrices were continually beautiful. He only paid for 2 vessels, but they always let him get the advantage in tank-breaks, and the energy recharged infinitely.

Flash couldn't keep up ballancing enough gols for the wraiths, and enough tanks for the tanks, and,well, died. It was glorious!

Something more, go watch Leta v Fantasy on the same map. I'd argue that's less hype of a game, but just as good, if not better (much more one-sided).
BW4LYF . . . . . . PM me, I LOVE PMs. . . . . . Long live "NaDa's Body" . . . . . . Fantasy | Bisu/Best | Jaedong . . . . .
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PondCast
10:00
Episode 46
CranKy Ducklings42
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EnDerr 37
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 21379
Bisu 2463
Shuttle 848
Pusan 608
Flash 591
actioN 372
BeSt 359
PianO 355
TY 259
Mini 234
[ Show more ]
Snow 155
Leta 105
ToSsGirL 58
NotJumperer 58
Shinee 56
sSak 44
Backho 41
Liquid`Ret 39
Mind 36
Aegong 27
Sharp 26
sorry 20
Barracks 17
Shine 16
yabsab 12
Sacsri 7
Movie 4
soO 3
Dota 2
XcaliburYe803
XaKoH 665
420jenkins563
League of Legends
JimRising 431
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2960
shoxiejesuss846
byalli263
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King105
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor210
Other Games
gofns24226
singsing1030
ceh9851
crisheroes223
DeMusliM156
SortOf112
Lowko45
Organizations
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv157
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 12
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 23
• Dystopia_ 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2224
League of Legends
• Stunt716
Upcoming Events
INu's Battles
29m
herO vs ByuN
Online Event
17h 29m
ShoWTimE vs MaxPax
SHIN vs herO
Clem vs Cure
SHIN vs Clem
ShoWTimE vs SHIN
SOOP
22h 29m
DongRaeGu vs sOs
CranKy Ducklings
23h 29m
WardiTV Invitational
1d
SC Evo League
1d 1h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 3h
Chat StarLeague
1d 5h
PassionCraft
1d 6h
Circuito Brasileiro de…
1d 7h
[ Show More ]
Online Event
1d 17h
MaxPax vs herO
SHIN vs Cure
Clem vs MaxPax
ShoWTimE vs herO
ShoWTimE vs Clem
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 23h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Chat StarLeague
2 days
Circuito Brasileiro de…
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
BeSt vs Light
Wardi Open
3 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs Soulkey
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
4 days
ByuN vs Rogue
herO vs Cure
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Classic vs Reynor
GuMiho vs Maru
The PondCast
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
GSL Code S
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

FGSL Season 1
PiG Sty Festival 6.0
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

BSL Nation Wars Season 2
StarCastTV Star League 4
JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
2025 GSL S1
Heroes 10 EU
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

CSLPRO Spring 2025
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
DreamHack Dallas 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.