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For as long as I've been the StarCraft 2 community, I've heard the same thing parroted over and over: "LoL is for scrubs!" or "LoL is SOOOOO EASY". I'm a bit mystified by this myself, I simply do not understand. Here's why.
In StarCraft 2, I'm what the community considers a "bad" player. I use the quotations because according to the ladder system, I'm in the top percentage of players on the ladder (1080 points, master league). My greatest accomplishment of my StarCraft 2 career is beating a few low ranked GM players. But compared to the professionals, I don't even come close!
Shortly after StarCraft 2 was released, I was introduced to League of Legends. I played LoL whenever my ladder rage was so great that I simply couldn't play anymore, but HAD to be distracted from my calculus problems somehow. I mostly played normal games all the way up until season 2 started for LoL. Then I decided that I should play ranked, see how good I've gotten! I'd mistakenly assumed that my casual play, and my expertise in StarCraft 2 would carry over to LoL, and I'd be in a good elo after playing a few games. Alas, this has simply not been the case.
In fact, I discovered that I am TERRIBLE at LoL. I've played about 70 ranked games, and my elo is roughly 1200. Every game I win it's because I got carried hard. Every game I lose it seems to be MY mistake that costs the game. It's so frustrating to be bad at this game that everyone says is easy. What am I missing?
  
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Obvious case: you have not yet mastered the MOBA way of blaming your team mates exclusively for losses.
Either that or you are just really really really bad. 
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Anything competitive won't be easy, you are not missing anything
Takes hardwork to be good at league just like sc2
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Good at RTS=/=MOBAs or whatever you want to call them. Only thing you transfer over is knowing how to click your mouse and press hotkeys. Completely different skill set, try and actually improve at LoL then rather than assuming you're start off amazing.
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70 games. If it makes you feel better you're doing better than I am at both games ^_^
I think it's just the competitive aspect of games. Even if a game is mechanically easier (lasthitting vs macro) in an absolute sense, all that matters is relative skill level. Some people know to hit you when you're last hitting and can pick better trades and snowball ahead early on to carry games. It's stuff you learn with experience. I'm sure you'll get to the master's equivalent of LoL with the same amount of effort.
Consider tetris. Tetris is a pretty fucking easy game but there are pros that can shift blocks faster than I can follow them with my eyes. Some of them just memorize the blocks for certain random seeds... but still. I never bother to try tpsins even though they give the most points.
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Thanks for that link, it was very interesting.
As for everyone else, thanks for the feedback =]
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Mogwai's defense of lol being, why don't dota players come take our money is a very bad point, his arguments are rather terrible.
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I think it might be because... Wait for it... Because LoL and SC2 are different games, entirely different genres even
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I wouldn't necessarily ask why, I'd ask how.
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Thats not a big surprise, being good at RTS doesnt automatically make you good at MOBA games
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LoL is easy mechanically. Ridiculously so. As a starcraft player you probably have no problem at all moving in between your last hitting, retaining map awareness and managing large scale battles (teamfights). However, LoL is a game that doesn't have a very high mechanical cap. So your ability to macro well doesn't actually carry over too much. Instead I'd say almost all of it is, at least at a decently high level (1700 elo+) decision making and game knowledge. You're probably missing a ton of little things that add up. You probably miss cs, don't play aggressively when you can and play too passively when you can be aggressive. You probably don't build the most optimal items - in fact, optimizing your item choice every game gives you a huge edge over people who don't. You probably are unfamiliar with many lane matchups that you haven't played enough, and mis-estimate your kill potential or your opponents. All of this will improve if you actually dedicate yourself to it by watching "pro" games and noticing+mimicing vital aspects of their play, just like how many players study casts and replays for insight.
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The argument “why aren’t old DotA pros flocking to LoL for free money?” is awful and is similar to the other equally awful argument posed by Starcrafters which is "if your race is so bad then why not change it?" first of all people do not become progamers to make all the moneyz. They are truly attached to the game that they play, or race if you are talking about starcraft, people do not choose their race for shits and giggles they choose it because they like the way it plays. Second of all it would be pointless for them to switch as it will take a long long time for them to become competitive again and well, they probably do not want to switch anyway.
I really really enjoy LoL and I have around 900 games played on it over the last year and a half to say that it requires as much skill as DotA is farcical. In DotA you make one mistake and a competent player can exploit that weakness and then make you his bitch for the rest of the game.
I do however agree on the mechanics section and agree on how in the grand scheme of the universe it isn't very important for one game to be harder than another. In a way I think it is just Starcrafters trying to 1up another community.
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imo it's just that sc2 is all about yourself and how you use your mastery and skills to hit the apex of your ability to play the game. LoL & Dota2 is again, all about mastery and skills related to the game, but you have 4 other idiots to account for too.
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8748 Posts
LoL takes a ridiculous amount of knowledge. You are probably doing almost everything wrong haha. You should try watching some pro streams and be very observant of the context that they're playing in and exactly what they're trying to get done. This way you can learn pretty fast. But you can easily be misled by misinterpreting what the player is doing or by failing to observe what circumstances made them decide to play the way they're playing.
Also there are some mechanics that are gonna take a lot of experience to perfect.
And of course the bane of all casual gamers who are trying to be as competitive as possible: panic. If you can't make correct decisions very quickly when the pressure is on and things are hectic, then there will always be a level that you can't reach.
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sc2 takes skill (comparatively), LoL (unless you have a dedicated team with a gameplan in mind), is just a pub mess of cluster fucks. For a slightly better experience, i recommend dota 2. At least it takes a little more skill.
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On April 05 2012 09:12 da_head wrote:
sc2 takes skill (comparatively), LoL (unless you have a dedicated team with a gameplan in mind), is just a pub mess of cluster fucks. For a slightly better experience, i recommend dota 2. At least it takes a little more skill.
DotA 2 pubs are honestly just as bad as LoL pubs, even though the players are (somewhat) more knowledgable about how to play. I mean, just bad team comps.
More skill is debatable, as they are different games that deviate from a common formula.
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On April 05 2012 08:42 NexUmbra wrote:
The argument “why aren’t old DotA pros flocking to LoL for free money?” is awful and is similar to the other equally awful argument posed by Starcrafters which is "if your race is so bad then why not change it?" first of all people do not become progamers to make all the moneyz. They are truly attached to the game that they play, or race if you are talking about starcraft, people do not choose their race for shits and giggles they choose it because they like the way it plays. Second of all it would be pointless for them to switch as it will take a long long time for them to become competitive again and well, they probably do not want to switch anyway.
I really really enjoy LoL and I have around 900 games played on it over the last year and a half to say that it requires as much skill as DotA is farcical. In DotA you make one mistake and a competent player can exploit that weakness and then make you his bitch for the rest of the game.
I do however agree on the mechanics section and agree on how in the grand scheme of the universe it isn't very important for one game to be harder than another. In a way I think it is just Starcrafters trying to 1up another community.
It is harder to be dominant in a game where everyone is at the same level because of a lack of mechanical depth. It is why lots of BW progamers dont want to switch to sc2. In dota you can win a lane with shear skill alone because of the deny mechanic. In league picks matter much more and you see less of that. Obviously there is also the free blink mechanic as well.
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On April 05 2012 09:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:
LoL takes a ridiculous amount of knowledge. You are probably doing almost everything wrong haha. You should try watching some pro streams and be very observant of the context that they're playing in and exactly what they're trying to get done. This way you can learn pretty fast. But you can easily be misled by misinterpreting what the player is doing or by failing to observe what circumstances made them decide to play the way they're playing.
Also there are some mechanics that are gonna take a lot of experience to perfect.
And of course the bane of all casual gamers who are trying to be as competitive as possible: panic. If you can't make correct decisions very quickly when the pressure is on and things are hectic, then there will always be a level that you can't reach.
define 'ridiculous' .................. i dont think it is outrageously hard, you will find your way eventually!
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One thing I think is overlooked a lot about the difficulty of being good at a game is that no matter how easy the game is, to be the best you have to be better than everyone else at the game. If you take an incredibly basic game but have people all around the world playing full time, it will still be hard as fuck to be a top level player because of the level of competition.
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On April 05 2012 08:20 Leeoku wrote:
buy wards
this. if you do this I guarantee you go up at least 100 ELO.
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I've seen destiny stream LoL and I can say without a doubt, he's ridiculously bad all around - mechanically, knowledge, map awareness, etc. Even if you come from another game you'll have a lot of things you need to work on, and I guarantee you you're bad mechanically.
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On April 05 2012 08:42 NexUmbra wrote:
The argument “why aren’t old DotA pros flocking to LoL for free money?” is awful and is similar to the other equally awful argument posed by Starcrafters which is "if your race is so bad then why not change it?" first of all people do not become progamers to make all the moneyz. They are truly attached to the game that they play, or race if you are talking about starcraft, people do not choose their race for shits and giggles they choose it because they like the way it plays. Second of all it would be pointless for them to switch as it will take a long long time for them to become competitive again and well, they probably do not want to switch anyway.
I really really enjoy LoL and I have around 900 games played on it over the last year and a half to say that it requires as much skill as DotA is farcical. In DotA you make one mistake and a competent player can exploit that weakness and then make you his bitch for the rest of the game.
I do however agree on the mechanics section and agree on how in the grand scheme of the universe it isn't very important for one game to be harder than another. In a way I think it is just Starcrafters trying to 1up another community.
Yea I feel the same way.
Many dota players and pros don't want to play LoL because its a boring and easy game compared to dota, but this thread isn't about that.
The best advice I can give you is find some friends who know what they are doing. Teamliquid is your friend and we have a Lol subforum. Someone will be able to give you advice and make you pro. Solo queuing in any AoS is a terrible idea if you want to have a good time.
Lol and SC2 are two very different games. Lol at the pub level is like 90% knowledge, 10% execution. at the competitive level its all teamwork and execution. If you don't know what is going on you won't do well, its pretty simple. Don't be too hard on yourself. + Show Spoiler +
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On April 05 2012 10:17 firehand101 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 09:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:
LoL takes a ridiculous amount of knowledge. You are probably doing almost everything wrong haha. You should try watching some pro streams and be very observant of the context that they're playing in and exactly what they're trying to get done. This way you can learn pretty fast. But you can easily be misled by misinterpreting what the player is doing or by failing to observe what circumstances made them decide to play the way they're playing.
Also there are some mechanics that are gonna take a lot of experience to perfect.
And of course the bane of all casual gamers who are trying to be as competitive as possible: panic. If you can't make correct decisions very quickly when the pressure is on and things are hectic, then there will always be a level that you can't reach. define 'ridiculous' .................. i dont think it is outrageously hard, you will find your way eventually!
Let's put it this way. If you were to put all the combined knowledge you'd have to know about LoL to perform at a competative level: I'm talking champions, optimal way to play champs, counterpicks, counter-counterpicks, last hitting, item builds, optimizing item builds, how/when to be aggressive/passive, champion and team cohesiveness and which compositions are effective, etc. etc. the amount of information would easily be comparable to say, a CS or biology class in college. And not, say, Intro to CS or Biology 101.
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Isn't 1200 flat average?
Anyway, League IS easier than Starcraft in almost every possible aspect with the main exception being that you have 4 randoms on your team. Where in a regular RTS you alone can control (if you're micro is strong enough) the army movements, you have a huge unpredictability factor in DOTA games because you can't 100% control the actions of the 4 other people (even if you're an arranged 5). Everything else in terms of MECHANICS is easier in League by a hundred fold, but it doesn't make it an easier game.
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On April 05 2012 14:24 PartyBiscuit wrote:
Isn't 1200 flat average?
Anyway, League IS easier than Starcraft in almost every possible aspect with the main exception being that you have 4 randoms on your team. Where in a regular RTS you alone can control (if you're micro is strong enough) the army movements, you have a huge unpredictability factor in DOTA games because you can't 100% control the actions of the 4 other people (even if you're an arranged 5). Everything else in terms of MECHANICS is easier in League by a hundred fold, but it doesn't make it an easier game.
the you have shit teamates argument is old and wrong
suppose op played in 4v4 against silver opponents as a master player. i'd guarantee you that he could carry his team regardless of how bad they are. the simple fact is that op played 70 games and if he goes 35/35 it's something HE"S doing wrong, not his teamates.
you have a lot more influence in lol than you think.
op just hasn't played as many MOBA(i really hate that term) games as other players. you go through a learning process in LoL like you do in sc2. the game is muuuuuch simpler in terms of mechanics but there still is experience and general knowledge that one has to learn before being successful.
so why are you only 1200 elo (equal to around silver/gold but the skill gap is much less in LoL) and masters at sc2? well you either studied sc2 and trained really hard, have great mechanical skills such as micro and macro to carry you through lower leagues, or you're just quite errrr unrefined in LoL.
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On April 05 2012 14:24 PartyBiscuit wrote:
Isn't 1200 flat average?
Anyway, League IS easier than Starcraft in almost every possible aspect with the main exception being that you have 4 randoms on your team. Where in a regular RTS you alone can control (if you're micro is strong enough) the army movements, you have a huge unpredictability factor in DOTA games because you can't 100% control the actions of the 4 other people (even if you're an arranged 5). Everything else in terms of MECHANICS is easier in League by a hundred fold, but it doesn't make it an easier game.
The mechanics are definitely easier, but it doesn't mean they translate anywhere close to one-to-one. Getting good at hitting larvae injects and macroing will not make you last-hit better. You may get good at looking at the minimap, but playing SC2 won't help you hit skillshots, etc.
Regardless, mechanics aren't what make MOBAs challenging. It's the coordination that separates the top level teams. Pretty much just like football or basketball.
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On April 05 2012 11:45 Thienan567 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 10:17 firehand101 wrote:On April 05 2012 09:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:
LoL takes a ridiculous amount of knowledge. You are probably doing almost everything wrong haha. You should try watching some pro streams and be very observant of the context that they're playing in and exactly what they're trying to get done. This way you can learn pretty fast. But you can easily be misled by misinterpreting what the player is doing or by failing to observe what circumstances made them decide to play the way they're playing.
Also there are some mechanics that are gonna take a lot of experience to perfect.
And of course the bane of all casual gamers who are trying to be as competitive as possible: panic. If you can't make correct decisions very quickly when the pressure is on and things are hectic, then there will always be a level that you can't reach. define 'ridiculous' .................. i dont think it is outrageously hard, you will find your way eventually! Let's put it this way. If you were to put all the combined knowledge you'd have to know about LoL to perform at a competative level: I'm talking champions, optimal way to play champs, counterpicks, counter-counterpicks, last hitting, item builds, optimizing item builds, how/when to be aggressive/passive, champion and team cohesiveness and which compositions are effective, etc. etc. the amount of information would easily be comparable to say, a CS or biology class in college. And not, say, Intro to CS or Biology 101.
I don't think there is this much knowledge required. just like dota, you just need to know the hero and their role, get their items, do your role whenever you can, be aggressive/passive based upon that.
other stuff are more relying upon teamwork, which makes some heroes in pub look imba and crappy in pro level.
last hitting imo, is just part of mechanics, just like zerg's creep spread
Being mechanically better will makes you a better player if your hero allows. For example, after sc2, my chen and meepo definitly has improved tonnes, especially meepo because it requires quite a lot of micro-ing
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I was Grandmasters on NA and SEA at the end of last year.. I switched to LoL at first i was stuck in the 1200-1400 rating however once I stuck to top lane and learned every top lane champion and how they work, I usually win my lane 80-90% of the time which also means higher chance of win the game. Right now I'm just over 1600 rating and still climbing. In sc2 you learn a race and you stick to it until you are good with it, it is similar in LoL... you stick to a lane and you master it. Obviously its good to know how to play all lanes but you should focus primarily on getting as much knowledge and understanding your lane so you can get an advantage.
You have to play your champion according to the situation.. let me give you an example.. If you play Gangplank top lane and you get counter picked by a Pantheon, you need to change the way you play or you will feed him. You can change by instead of maxing parley first, get remove scurvy first for healing, on top of that you can use armor runes and start with cloth armor and 5 pots, now its not about winning your lane but rather sustaining your lane.. getting your cs and getting into late game.
LoL is all about decision making, however to be able to make good decisions you need game knowledge. I find learning LoL 10x harder than sc2.. sc2 requires more mechanics, but mechanics isn't everything.
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70 ranked games is a VERY low amount of games. In dota type games you need to play several hundred games and tens of games with each and every single hero just to reach the basic necessary amount of knowledge to form a baseline level. The subtle mechanical details also require some time to learn but that's where SC2 is a lot harder, whereas Dota type games need more knowledge.
And from there to be a good competitive player you need to learn to play your role perfectly, be it carrying, supporting, ganking, etc. And finally you need to practice your teamwork, which is what pro teams actually excel at. Dota type games are hard to learn, but don't despair, you just need to play and read more.
In comparison, DotA takes a lot more skill than LoL though. It's a game that exposes your weaknesses a lot more, a game that is A LOT more punishing, and thus much more dissapointing for new players who aren't guided through the beginning.
On April 05 2012 15:27 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 11:45 Thienan567 wrote:On April 05 2012 10:17 firehand101 wrote:On April 05 2012 09:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:
LoL takes a ridiculous amount of knowledge. You are probably doing almost everything wrong haha. You should try watching some pro streams and be very observant of the context that they're playing in and exactly what they're trying to get done. This way you can learn pretty fast. But you can easily be misled by misinterpreting what the player is doing or by failing to observe what circumstances made them decide to play the way they're playing.
Also there are some mechanics that are gonna take a lot of experience to perfect.
And of course the bane of all casual gamers who are trying to be as competitive as possible: panic. If you can't make correct decisions very quickly when the pressure is on and things are hectic, then there will always be a level that you can't reach.
define 'ridiculous' .................. i dont think it is outrageously hard, you will find your way eventually! Let's put it this way. If you were to put all the combined knowledge you'd have to know about LoL to perform at a competative level: I'm talking champions, optimal way to play champs, counterpicks, counter-counterpicks, last hitting, item builds, optimizing item builds, how/when to be aggressive/passive, champion and team cohesiveness and which compositions are effective, etc. etc. the amount of information would easily be comparable to say, a CS or biology class in college. And not, say, Intro to CS or Biology 101. I don't think there is this much knowledge required. just like dota, you just need to know the hero and their role, get their items, do your role whenever you can, be aggressive/passive based upon that. other stuff are more relying upon teamwork, which makes some heroes in pub look imba and crappy in pro level. last hitting imo, is just part of mechanics, just like zerg's creep spread Being mechanically better will makes you a better player if your hero allows. For example, after sc2, my chen and meepo definitly has improved tonnes, especially meepo because it requires quite a lot of micro-ing
You definitely need all that knowledge, if you intend to play at any level beyond average
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On April 05 2012 10:44 phantaxx wrote:
One thing I think is overlooked a lot about the difficulty of being good at a game is that no matter how easy the game is, to be the best you have to be better than everyone else at the game. If you take an incredibly basic game but have people all around the world playing full time, it will still be hard as fuck to be a top level player because of the level of competition.
it will still come down to boundaries of the game itself.
look at tic tac toe for the most basic example.
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As most people have pointed out, LoL is a game of knowledge as opposed to mechanical skill (like starcraft or fighting games).
Basically these are the things you have to learn to be on a decent level, sorted descending in order of importance and order in which you should master them:
1. Mechanics. This includes lasthitting, aiming skillshots, aoes, using hotkeys etc. You don't have to be super good at them, but this is the thing you should focus on first
2. Role. This is more abstract and harder to rank. You should know which roles champs plays in the game. A support plays differently than a carry. You should know where your focus lies: is it warding? farming? pushing? ganking? Know what your overall goal is during the game. Carries usually stay on lane or jungle for a long time, while supports are more active and leave the lane earlier to roam etc.
3. Champions. Learn your champs. Know how to effectively use your skills. Learn to gauge how much damage you can do / take.
4. Match ups. This comes naturally with playing the game a lot. You have to know when you can kill the opponent, how you can punish his mistakes, how HE can punish your mistakes. What is the range you want to hang out in? Can he escape if I jump him now? Those things...
5. Map awareness. After playing a lot you develop a feeling for when you are in danger and when you are safe. it's hard to describe,sometimes you just know you will be ganked soon  . Essentially, it comes down to: Where can I go safely without being in danger to be killed?
6. Items. Know your items, rune and mastery builds. For most champs, runes and masteries are pretty much self explanatory. LoL is also quite simple in the item department (not a lot of on-use stuff like in dota).
7. Overall strategy. This is what tournament players mostly focus on. When to take buffs, do coordinated ganks, do split pushes, time dragon/baron. Bans, picks, counterpicks, metagame
I'm no pro, but i have played my fair share of games (should be around the 2000s). If it helps you: I recently picked up DOTA2 and I probably am as scrubby at it as i was when I first started LoL. If you want to improve, you just have to play A LOT of games. Try out as much champs as possible, don't be afraid to try stuff and lose. The single worst thing you can do is to play and not learn anything from it.
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After almost a year of playing LoL, I still find it to be a significantly harder game to play than SC2 almost purely because of the fact that it's a team game. It demands a completely different kind of mindset and I find it to be a much more taxing game to play. At least when it comes to solo queue. Playing with friends is completely different also.
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I played LoL for a long time, got to a rating of around 1900 and switched to SC2.
The environment was just too toxic and I felt like a waste of a human being after every game I played, largely because of how I couldn't seem to stop myself from raging at my teammates.
In SC2, I can't really make any excuses.
LoL is really a very easy game if you don't handicap yourself like I did, picking bad heroes all the time. There is a bunch of knowledge involved, yes, but it's not nearly as difficult to acquire as it's made out to be. People are just really actually that fucking bad.
There *is* a lot of individual skill, but it is completely eclipsed by even SC2. Teamwork, as everyone else is saying, is probably the most important thing.
The best thing you can ever do for your ladder rating is be manner to your teammates, even when the useless shits don't deserve it. Also, buy god damn wards and don't overextend. Congratulations, you're better than >80% of players.
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EPT
