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On March 09 2012 07:47 Paincarnate wrote:
As for micro:
--Terran needs to spread out to avoid storms, Protoss needs to spread out to avoid EMP.
--Terrans need to micro their vikings (debatable), Protoss needs to focus fire them with blink Stalkers (also debatable).
--Terran/Protoss do the Ghost/Templar dance (where Terran arguably has the advantage with greater range).
--Terran needs to hit stim and, Protoss needs to hit Guardian Shield and/or Forcefields.
I don't see how Terran is somehow "more micro-intensive" than Protoss.
That all sounds nice and dandy and equal (which at the highest levels of play it may in fact be slightly Terran favored) but you're missing a very important part to all of this. It all starts with the word "need." The terran NEEDS to do all of those things at EVERY level of play or they get ROLLED by a toss that A-Moves. That's the problem. Below masters (and even some in masters) Terran players simply do not have the skills to deal the death ball.
A protoss in gold doesn't do any of the things you say the protoss should do but they will win the engagement by a large amount just by a-moving. A pro protoss does those things and that's why it's fine, at a pro level. But for casuals it's very very very very frustrating. The game shouldn't be like that.
Also, for those who say that if Protoss wins an engagement, he wins the game, whereas if Terran wins an engagement, he has to deal with the next wave:
I want to state, again, that Terran bio > Protoss Gateway. If Terran wins an engagement, he can push forward - even a handful of Marauders on orange/red health decimates Zealot/Stalker reinforcements with micro.
On a related note, although it probably warrants an entire discussion thread of its own, so I'll make another blog post about it, but just some food for thought: is it fair that Terran can increase the effectiveness of their units with micro?
Would you listen to what you just wrote?! Everyone can increase the effectiveness of their units with micro! Just because it's easier to notice when bio does it doesn't mean that the other races can't. That line alone makes this blog a joke for me.
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A protoss complainning about lategame PvT? Never thought id see the day.
Yes if a terran out micros you, you will lose. Why is this a problem?
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On March 09 2012 06:38 KawaiiRice wrote:
200 vs 200 is such a skewed generalized statement... because protoss needs 60+ probes (usually 70-80?).. while terran can sack scvs so their army supply is like 170 compared to their opponent's 140... if you lose any fights like that then you screwed up your micro (and you screwed up pretty badly LOL).
This,
and besides that when do you have a pylon right under your army when there is a big battle? i would say it's fair to say that the closest pylon is around half between the protoss base and the battle, because lategame it's all about positioning and you will be dancing around the map.
Alot of times your "forward" pylons are getting sniped because you are forced out of your position, because if you stay you just get ROFLSTOMPEDPOWNEDHARDCORE.
What some other people have been saying as well is that MMM > Protoss gateway army, and a terran should always have a bigger army because of the SCV sacking and more orbitals to mine minerals.
So all in all it's even, but in the mid game that's where protoss is still loosing to the super high mobility from bio and the fact that mid game it's not easy to deal with solid amount off barracks, medivac, +1/+1 stim timing attacks with multi prong drops. If a protoss has to split up their army the terran WILL trade more effective.
Anyways, once the gateway units from protoss will get their general buff Blizzard is promising, we will be on even footing in all stages of the game
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On March 09 2012 08:01 Akamu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 07:47 Paincarnate wrote:
As for micro:
--Terran needs to spread out to avoid storms, Protoss needs to spread out to avoid EMP.
--Terrans need to micro their vikings (debatable), Protoss needs to focus fire them with blink Stalkers (also debatable).
--Terran/Protoss do the Ghost/Templar dance (where Terran arguably has the advantage with greater range).
--Terran needs to hit stim and, Protoss needs to hit Guardian Shield and/or Forcefields.
I don't see how Terran is somehow "more micro-intensive" than Protoss. That all sounds nice and dandy and equal (which at the highest levels of play it may in fact be slightly Terran favored) but you're missing a very important part to all of this. It all starts with the word "need." The terran NEEDS to do all of those things at EVERY level of play or they get ROLLED by a toss that A-Moves. That's the problem. Below masters (and even some in masters) Terran players simply do not have the skills to deal the death ball. A protoss in gold doesn't do any of the things you say the protoss should do but they will win the engagement by a large amount just by a-moving. A pro protoss does those things and that's why it's fine, at a pro level. But for casuals it's very very very very frustrating. The game shouldn't be like that. Show nested quote +
Also, for those who say that if Protoss wins an engagement, he wins the game, whereas if Terran wins an engagement, he has to deal with the next wave:
I want to state, again, that Terran bio > Protoss Gateway. If Terran wins an engagement, he can push forward - even a handful of Marauders on orange/red health decimates Zealot/Stalker reinforcements with micro.
On a related note, although it probably warrants an entire discussion thread of its own, so I'll make another blog post about it, but just some food for thought: is it fair that Terran can increase the effectiveness of their units with micro?
Would you listen to what you just wrote?! Everyone can increase the effectiveness of their units with micro! Just because it's easier to notice when bio does it doesn't mean that the other races can't. That line alone makes this blog a joke for me.
You don't need GM or Masters level micro. As a Terran, the only thing you NEED to do is to hit the Templar before they storm. That's it. Everything else (Vikings, bio, medivacs) just a-moves and you're fine.
As for the other comment, it belongs in another blog post. But for now, have you tried beating marine/marauder with stim with Zealot/Sentry/Stalker micro? It just doesn't happen. Blinking forward with stalkers is just asking to get mauled by marauders, and blinking backwards is not even an option if Terran has 8+ Marauders. Microing Chargelots? Marauders with concussive shell and stim move faster. The only way Protoss can reasonably fight it is if the he catches the Terran as he's moving up a ramp, and forcefields off half of it, and even then, the fight trades equally, not "in favor of Protoss". See end of this post.
On March 09 2012 08:29 hersenen wrote:
A protoss complainning about lategame PvT? Never thought id see the day.
Yes if a terran out micros you, you will lose. Why is this a problem?
I'm not complaining, I was hoping this article would help Terran players realise that Protoss lategame isn't as IMBA as people make it out to be.
Also, this feels like a problem because Protoss can't "outmicro" the Terran. It's not question of player skill; it's that Protoss can't increase their effectiveness of their units with micro.
+ Show Spoiler +Yes, you can use blink stalker micro, and yes, Forcefields can be gamechanging. But in the TvP matchup, blink doesn't help Protoss in a straight up fight, and Sentries cost 100 gas each, so each one NEEDS to place "money forcefields" to actually make them worth their cost. Planting good forcefields is not easy for the "casual" Protoss, but anyone above silver league can stutter step with Marine/Marauder.
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On March 09 2012 07:47 Paincarnate wrote:
Alright, so Protoss has an easier time remaxing with the warp in mechanic. Bear in mind though, that Terran can easily have a larger army because of MULES. This sounds bizarre, but Protoss needs the warp in mechanic to take on Terran head-on late-game.
As for micro:
--Terran needs to spread out to avoid storms, Protoss needs to spread out to avoid EMP.
--Terrans need to micro their vikings (debatable), Protoss needs to focus fire them with blink Stalkers (also debatable).
--Terran/Protoss do the Ghost/Templar dance (where Terran arguably has the advantage with greater range).
--Terran needs to hit stim and, Protoss needs to hit Guardian Shield and/or Forcefields.
This is a vast simplification of the idea.
Terran can't just spread to avoid storms. Either you dodge the storm altogether or you EMP the templar. Dodging storms to spreading to avoid emp isn't a fair comparison. Especially now that the emp radius has been decreased. I've hit clumps of zealots with the emp blast entirely and I can tell you it's not an auto win like taking a storm at full damage. Yes, given that it's harder to hit a storm that does its full damage, but I want to make the point that it's no longer cost effective to use ghosts EMP as a way of doing damage UNLESS the protoss player makes a very critical mistake. EMP is to kill mana.
Having played some protoss I can say there's some legitimacy to the viking colossus blink stalker fight, I think that's a legitimate, equal skill equal victory battle.
I don't think terran really has an advantage with the ghost templar dance. In a battle between one ghost and a high templar, the ghost is more likely to snipe or emp the high templar. However, this is a defensive mechanism for the terran and an offensive mechanism for protoss. If protoss wins the battle, protoss gets to use storm which will do critical damage unless dodged entirely. If terran wins the battle, then the two are on even grounds again. (We're talking late game, where protoss has colossus as well).
I think there's some legitimacy to the guardian shield and forcefields, as well as protoss unit positioning in terms of difficulty. It's difficult to have terran unit positioning as well and to coordinate using the emp, using the stim and vikings.
I think though, that in the ghost vs high templar game, protoss has the advantage, and in remaxing protoss has the advantage. Protoss and terran might be able to create units at the same rate, but protoss can create them at the fight and terran has to wait to regroup. Additionally, the terran has to macro during the fight. Protoss can back up and replace missing supply instantly.
These are at least the things I struggle with currently as a terran player. I'm sure there are some strategies that bug protoss just as much, but in my personal opinion protoss has a pretty significant advantage in the late game. There are a lot of ways for a protoss player to just flat out win in one battle or move, while the terran victory is a long, tedious one.
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Have you played late game tvp???? Sry to blunt. But your arguments sound like theory craft?
A "handful of marauders" does not even last a second vs a zeal warp in...
Not to mention your rebuttal to all of the remaxing talk was "oh well P needs wg to be fair ' that's dodging the reality of how a maxed out tvp is better for the p
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