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So I gave this idea to someone a while ago and I haven't been able to test it really but the theory is as follows
In PvT atm there is currently a view that chargelots are very hard to deal with simply because they are such a great mineral dump and terran cannot ALWAYS deal with mass chargelots along side other units such as collosi/archons and the ability to remax with these highly cost effective units causes problems. In my exp, as a terran and a protoss if i win a battle as terran by maybe 20 supply its about the same in trade off since a protoss gets 2 warp ins to my 1 cycle of production which on avg is 10 gates. If i as the terran trade evenly it causes issues for me such as the following
I need ghosts, more importantly the ghosts need lots of energy to handle what t3 the gateways can make. They take a while to build AND to gain energy. furthermore i need to decide what exactly IS being made because if a protoss has made say 3 robos after maxing out he might just make mass collosi chargelot OR mass immortal storm chargelot. they require two very dif responses that i cant always have time to prepair for
here is my idea to be cost effective vs protoss and its very similar to TvZ tank hoping and TvZ bunker rushing
I want to late game pvt have terrans using 3 barracks to leap frog and create a choke for which the chargelots must filter through AND the archons/immortals/collosi will have to micro around which are VERY prone to attacking. It depends on the map but basically any map can do this usually except maybe tal darim and there are other applications to my idea. the other idea was a simple drop with buildings to wall off locations that chargelots would come in to handle. maybe this means making supply depots between the mineral line holes similar to how protoss stop ling run bys or even floating the factory to help larger gaps be walled off
the idea is similar to FF mineral lines or FF ramp drops. For those protoss who have lost games to terrans because you fought inside his base and your units got caught on buildings or in chokes you know how this feels. Im hoping people will be able to try this out and see if my theory is possible
k here is a pic of the idea. in most scenarios it seems 4 rax is the magic number
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BxdT6.jpg)
in the top left frame it represents a choke that can be COMPLETELY walled off. now in this drop im using 2 scv to build 2 supply depots. i dont have to complete them and most likely i wont. in a scenario where they would want to warp in units to defend this drop such as chargelots or DT this will hinder that warp in and if the army they have is primarily focused on defending a more important location they will have to send over more units then they may want to handle this. obviously this is not NEARLY as useful and practical as the leap frog of the buildings but still kinda cool. the top right is an example of needing a large structure and still having to use marines to maintain that choke
now the main pic is the main point. the buildings create this wall of some sorts. if someone were to try and attack into that, they have only the red areas circled to filter chargelots. if i want to attack this with collosi and the marines kite back, collosi will attack the buildings with 1 or 2 swipes before the person may or may not react to it. now offensively it has its function as well. if i know im fighting heavy archon chargelot, i can slowly leap 1 at a time and stay behind the rax or he will risk fighting in the choke. if he has collosi i have vikings so its not a big deal
this idea could also very much apply to zerg and if anyone whos high masters wishes to attempt to outmicro me as protoss vs my terran then id love to get a nice replay
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Hahaha, brilliant idea. Terran forcefields :D
And in late game, throwing 300 minerals for two floating barracks + your initial floating factory to create chokes is pretty viable. Too bad you can't force the landing on areas already with units underneath. So I guess it would take a lot of timing/prediction.
Oh better yet, floating orbital commands! Drop mules when you land them, gather energy while floating around.
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you can watch JJakji vs parting in the GSL doing something similar to this with a factory being landed at choke points. Terrans already use buildings to help wall off, and as for your idea of leap frogging across the map with several barracks... in practice, this won't work because barracks are very slow, not to mention it takes time to lift off, and in order to land the ground must be clear. The risk of not being able to land, micro required to move them around and land them, and especially the undue immobility it would impose on your army are all factors that make this nonviable in practice.
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On March 01 2012 14:33 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
you can watch JJakji vs parting in the GSL doing something similar to this with a factory being landed at choke points. Terrans already use buildings to help wall off, and as for your idea of leap frogging across the map with several barracks... in practice, this won't work because barracks are very slow, not to mention it takes time to lift off, and in order to land the ground must be clear. The risk of not being able to land, micro required to move them around and land them, and especially the undue immobility it would impose on your army are all factors that make this nonviable in practice.
if something is under the rax then they are already fighting you. the concept actually functions even if the floating buildings were slower then they are now. the idea is that anyone whos maxed on chargelot archon cant cost effectively attack a terran behind a wall or near a choke and thus slowly leaping buildings forward wont be a problem
i really need a replay... any high masters toss please msg me 
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On paper it sounds like a great idea, I just can't see alot of people doing this. Also whats stopping the protoss from just pulling their zelots back and killing the raxx with their collosi? For sure though this could help on certain maps!
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On March 01 2012 14:47 cmen15 wrote:
On paper it sounds like a great idea, I just can't see alot of people doing this. Also whats stopping the protoss from just pulling their zelots back and killing the raxx with their collosi? For sure though this could help on certain maps!
vikings have the same range so that wont work
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How does this method compare in effectiveness to the idea of using autoturret walls instead? Obviously there the buildings are weaker and cannot be moved again later, but have the advantages of only costing energy and contributing to your damage dealt.
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its simply that you can move them. trust me ive done this before i reformatted and its amazing to see how destructive it can be to a protoss whos on chargelot archon
really shoulda saved the replay. need a masters toss to do this with
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I like this idea personally. Late game of course, when you can afford it. Buildings can really screw with chargelot ai.
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screws with more then just charglot ai
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I'm concerned about one thing :
In TvZ or TvT, the Z or T are a bit reluctant to engage your army on sight because of possible tank damage. This gives you some time to position your things right.
But in TvP, the P is not reluctant at all to engage your army on sight, and will probably just go in a big bold a-move, if you're spotted anywhere not close to your base. This makes the whole travelling/landing buildings a bit more difficult in this matchup.*
Moreover, the chargelots are often a problem not on the first wave, but on the reinforcement wave, where your army is actually not in the front anymore but either in his base or in your base...
Good idea nonetheless, I just feel it would be very hard to pull off in that matchup.
* Only situation I could see a P being reluctant to engage on sight is versus mech. The slow nature of a mech push would allow to sim-city on the way (as so many did on BW, it was even better due to the spider mines). However I feel this would simply overlap with mech already strong characteristic (very strong positional army) while aggravating main mech issue, lack of mobility.
But I'm being quite negative here, and may be this could just work after all, definitely worth a try.
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in my practice games i did a while back. the terran comes ahead massively in supply. game ending change
its not hard to leap buildings on shakuras or antiga depending on your spawn positions, and its not hard to use this method defensively as well. i can tell you str8 up that a protoss cannot attack into a 4 rax wall against a terran who is also ready army wise to defend said push.
i did mention the reason chargelots are great is because AFTER the first fight they are amazing and the goal of this is to make sure you win the first fight with more then enough or in worst case scenario just enough to defend the warp ins.
i would be happy to show you on a map that this is viable on or in army test games how it works. i bet you wont find a single spot thats safe to attack me when i leap one at a time. when i lift 1 rax 3 more exist and wrapping around STILL creates a choke. its also not much micro at ALLL
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So today I watched Boxer land a factory to create a choke between ToD's main and nat. Would have worked well if ToD's army wasn't split - which ended up sandwiching Boxer's army.
Now if Boxer did that with 2 more floating raxes and completely walled off, he would have easily crushed ToD's split forces - especially when zealots can't blink or cliffwalk, and they're absolutely necessary for meatshielding. It's only 300 more minerals. And you can start making marines from them when you land them, so it's like a really low-tech warp-in.
Oh man, Terran ingenuity.
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yeh i actually presented this idea a while ago and lets just say it resulted in me overly defending my post and a temp ban going out.
what boxer did isnt new and what im suggesting is far more radical.
still waiting for someone to test this with me, masters toss please
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I think this is a very good concept... the issue (as with many other "cutesy" ideas) is executing it properly in a real game when you have so much other stuff to worry about. If you're too focused on barracks positioning I can see other aspects of army positioning suffering - it's already pretty hard to get bio spread, ghosts in the right position/cloak-snipe/emp HT, vikings constantly poking at colossus. Also, this might promote a more passive mindset so you'll have to consciously tell yourself to be aggressive/active.
The cost seems negligible in the late game when you're sitting on a bank. Making a lot of extra barracks past the ones needed for the wall and floating them ahead of your army might help since you'll have more rax to choose from when moving the wall forwards (less float time). Also they can help scout for P army movement!
I'd be happy to help you test, but I'd consider my skill peak mid-master (and I'm rusty now), so if you're pushing high master/GM it probably won't be very helpful. I'll be on a bit tonight around dinner/Playhem time though! Harmony.287.
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yeh its really not that hard to control
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Wouldn't a competent protoss just sit behind the rax and focus them down with whatever range he has? Vikings may have the same range as a collosus, but they'd have to expose themselves to stalkers/storm/archons at a range that would leave the protoss army safely back behind the rax. For you to attack, you'd either have to lift them (negates the purpose) or expose your own units to a funnel that could be further affected by FF's. :
(T)__[BV]____P C
(TT)_________P
(T)__[BV]_____PC
(TT)_________P
(T)__[BV]____P C
T = Terran bio
P = Gateway units
C = Collosus
BV = Barracks and range at which Vikings would have to be to hit Collosus (i.e. above Barracks).
In other words, the Cols hit the Barracks from range 9, the vikings sit on top of the Barracks to hit the Cols, the stalkers hit the vikings from range six, storm from 9. For marines/marauders to support the vikings they'd have to move THROUGH the choke point exposing themselves to being FF'd/Stormed/Focused by Cols.
I see this being a defensive measure to dissuade an attack at a certain position (already used), rather than being something viable as an aggressive 'push' tactic.
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marauders beat stalkers so it would be hard for him to do that since you can always dart forward between the gap yourself and attack the stalkers
i dont see where stalkers can shoot the vikings AND the collosi can attack the rax
i can emp storms so its safe to assume the following. vikings cancel collosi, storms get canceled by emp
the rest is a mmm vs gateway ball which is what this is designed for
not saying its easy, im saying ive done it vs twilight tech openers and its had massive success just needs more testing
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EPT
