EPTWhy do people like RIOT? - Page 4
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Arthemesia
United States292 Posts
On February 29 2012 06:10 koreasilver wrote: If you spend money on it to an extent you think you've been robbed, then you pretty much just got suckered in by Riot's marketing strategy because you're dumb. Riot pretty much deserves every penny you spent on them because of how blatantly obvious their system is. It's a shitty system, I don't think anyone will disagree on that. But I really can't have any sympathy if you spent that much money on this game and regretted it. Because it is all just too obvious. Yes it is very obvious now but Riot was a very different company back in 2010 when they were a lot smaller and seemed a lot more genuine. This is around the time that I spent money on everything and was leveling up. Yes it probably wasn't the best decision and yes I was tricked and it was dumb of me. I also don't understand why you think I'm looking for sympathy I'm just trying to make those who want to get into the game how much time it really takes to get the things you want in the game and is a real time and money sink. It was a lot of fun while it lasted but when I realized that I'm getting nothing for my money is when my opinion changed. I'm just trying to have people be more aware because with how much money RIOT makes and the fact they can afford these huge tournaments mean that I'm not the only retarded person out there. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
I've played LoL since it got out of beta. I've played a lot and probably dropped, I dunno $200ish total between 3 accounts. For the amount of time I spend on the game, I don't regret a cent. For my case, I've paid less than I would with a monthly $15 fee for WoW or whatever and I have roughly all relevant content (I don't own all champs, but I do have spare IP and RP enough lying around that I could get them if I wanted), That being said, the entrance barrier for new players is absurd and the only thing that I really have a problem with in LoL is that when a friend says "hey should I get into LoL?" I frequently have to tell them that at this point, the grind would be absurd or you'd have to spend a ton of money to get up to speed if you wanted to take the game seriously. Balance is acceptable and if you say they don't take competitive balance seriously, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. They have hiccups, but every company does and Riot's been getting mostly better about not releasing imbalanced changes. Anyway, back to the original question in the thread, the reason people like riot is that riot puts faces on a number of it's employees and cuts them enough slack to interact with the community that people feel like they know the people behind Riot and like they have an idea of why those people are doing what they're doing with LoL. This level of interaction with the community is pretty remarkable and is largely behind why people like Riot. | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
Making you pay for heroes = not everyone has the same starting ground. If I wanted to play a game where the amount of time and money I invest gave me more options and more power, I'd play an MMORPG. For a DotA style game, you ALWAYS want to give your userbase access to EVERY hero. Its just fucking common sense. A true game of skill doesn't tier itself so you get access to more the longer you play. Imagine if SC2 didn't allow you to build Ultralisks or Broodlords unless you had invested 500 hours and 4000 achievement points. Or you coulnd't upgrade past level 2 weapons/armor unless you spent a certain amount of money. | ||
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Qbek
Poland12923 Posts
I mean, when I play dota I play different role every game, I sometimes hard carry, sometimes gank , sometimes hardcore support, the other day I play one hero exclusively(like once in a month). I rotate through 60+% of full Dota1 hero pool easily within 2 months. It might be my personal thing, but I don't get it how you can be cool with having to play limited amount of heroes for so long O.o. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On February 29 2012 06:27 ch33psh33p wrote: The funny thing is, all the LoL supporters in this thread haven't given a shred of evidence as to why RIOT is a good organization. Everyone either agrees the model is bad, or just yells at that one guy for being mad. -___________- Making you pay for heroes = not everyone has the same starting ground. If I wanted to play a game where the amount of time and money I invest gave me more options and more power, I'd play an MMORPG. For a DotA style game, you ALWAYS want to give your userbase access to EVERY hero. Its just fucking common sense. A true game of skill doesn't tier itself so you get access to more the longer you play. Imagine if SC2 didn't allow you to build Ultralisks or Broodlords unless you had invested 500 hours and 4000 achievement points. Or you coulnd't upgrade past level 2 weapons/armor unless you spent a certain amount of money. that's not how spending money works. the better comparison would be that you couldn't play terran until you have invested X hours. building a working rune set isn't that bad, and aside from runes, the content you spend IP/RP on is strictly about expanding your character selection options and has no impact in the actual game. On February 29 2012 06:28 Qbek wrote: One thing I don't understand here: why on earth are LoL players okay with having to specialize in one role? I mean, when I play dota I play different role every game, I sometimes hard carry, sometimes gank , sometimes hardcore support, the other day I play one hero exclusively(like once in a month). I rotate through 60+% of full Dota1 hero pool easily within 2 months. It might be my personal thing, but I don't get it how you can be cool with having to play limited amount of heroes for so long O.o. you don't have to? what makes you think you have to specialize in a particular role? naturally as you get more competitive, specialization has it's perks in terms of you mastering a role, but no one's holding a gun to your head saying you have to play support every game. | ||
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Parametric
Canada1261 Posts
On February 29 2012 06:27 ch33psh33p wrote: The funny thing is, all the LoL supporters in this thread haven't given a shred of evidence as to why RIOT is a good organization. Everyone either agrees the model is bad, or just yells at that one guy for being mad. -___________- Making you pay for heroes = not everyone has the same starting ground. If I wanted to play a game where the amount of time and money I invest gave me more options and more power, I'd play an MMORPG. For a DotA style game, you ALWAYS want to give your userbase access to EVERY hero. Its just fucking common sense. A true game of skill doesn't tier itself so you get access to more the longer you play. Imagine if SC2 didn't allow you to build Ultralisks or Broodlords unless you had invested 500 hours and 4000 achievement points. Or you coulnd't upgrade past level 2 weapons/armor unless you spent a certain amount of money. I don't see how your last comparison is very valid lol the only thing paying money/playing more gains you is access to more variety. It's not like i can drop $20 and get access to items that are better than everyone else's. Their hero balance isn't trash except for a few cases where they've said "Evelynn is a whore who makes this game unfun, we're nerfing her to death." The only thing that I genuinely don't like is the cost for runes/rune pages. If you're a person who wants access to everything from the get go LoL isn't for you. Also to fill out an AP AD/Jungle and Support page isn't very bad if you know what you need and there are a lot of low price champs that do just fine in their roles. Edit: it seems most people here are bashing the F2P model and don't actually know much about LoL. If you don't like their free to play model, just don't play and go find another game that you can enjoy. | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
It's ok if someone likes something you don't like, you know! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI Some of you need to chill out. But anyway. As someone who works with Rioters on a regular basis, here's my $0.02 for what it's worth. 1. Rioters are pretty cool guys. Eh engages community and doesn't afraid of anything. I talk to Player Support and Community Management a lot. There is always a focus on what can be done better. The guys there really care about the game and its players, even if it doesn't seem obvious at times. They also regularly visit the Official LoL Forums, Reddit, other fansites, watch streams, and much more. Additionally, every Rioter plays LoL and knows what goes on. They're also pretty cool guys. Did you know one of the Network Engineers was the creator of the Megatokyo webcomic (he's Largo, btw)? How about the fact that their Lead Designer is Zileas, who in Brood War was the guy who got Reavers nerfed? Yeah. 2. Riot cares about E-Sports E-Sports is big at Riot. They promote E-Sports both outside and inside the community. They've also got a really sweet internal studio with massive Plasma HD where they watch tournaments. But some of you seem to think this stuff is bad. You say: "They put stream link in client to fudge numbers! That's cheating!" I say: "Why don't more developers put stream links in their clients to get people watching E-Sports?" You say: "They just flood the scene with money and no one cares." I say: "Why don't more developers step up to the plate and give everyone free HD Streaming and spoil us with coverage?" You say: "They publish E-Sports news on their website and don't talk about SC2." I say: "Why don't more developers promote E-Sports to their own players?" You say: "It's not SC2/DotA/other game. It's bad." I say: "So what? E-Sports is about promoting electronic sports as a whole." 3. It's a free game. Stop complaining about money. The Riot payment system is as follows. Don't like the game? Don't spend money. Simple, eh? The whole idea is that if you don't like what they do, you can still take advantage of their game and not pay. The onus is on them to make good content to convince you it's worth paying for a skin or something. It's never necessary in the name of power or anything else. You are never ever required to pay for things in LoL. I've had loads of chats with Marketing on this topic. You can't buy power directly in LoL, and you can unlock everything necessary by just playing. That's one of the reasons the "unlock everything" reward for referrals doesn't unlock runes btw. Also, people are never differentiated based on how much they've spent on the game. The barrier to entry given that there's been a lot of development and that it's hard for a new player to instantly pick up the game is a known problem. They're working on it. I'm not allowed to say more on this though, sorry. | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
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Enki
United States2548 Posts
On February 29 2012 07:13 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: 2. Riot cares about E-Sports E-Sports is big at Riot. They promote E-Sports both outside and inside the community. They've also got a really sweet internal studio with massive Plasma HD where they watch tournaments. But some of you seem to think this stuff is bad. Uh, who cares that they have some Plasma TV where they can watch tournaments? After over 2 years, they still haven't added a replay/observer system. What other competitive games don't have this? Hell, even SC2 has replays. You seem biased since you hang around those people so it's kinda pointless to debate with you. I still stick by my point that they are fucking lazy and don't care about making the game an esport as much as shitting out new champions like they have diarrhea so they can make some quick cash. Yeah, the system works, they are making money in the long run for now. Good for them. Don't try to pretend that it's a good system for fostering competition though. | ||
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Chiharu Harukaze
12112 Posts
On February 29 2012 07:32 Enki wrote: Uh, who cares that they have some Plasma TV where they can watch tournaments? After over 2 years, they still haven't added a replay/observer system. What other competitive games don't have this? Hell, even SC2 has replays. You seem biased since you hang around those people so it's kinda pointless to debate with you. I still stick by my point that they are fucking lazy and don't care about making the game an esport as much as shitting out new champions like they have diarrhea so they can make some quick cash. Yeah, the system works, they are making money in the long run for now. Good for them. Don't try to pretend that it's a good system for fostering competition though. 1. Obs Mode has already been released for a while. Not sure what you're saying here. 2. Replays are in development, and there's an unofficial replay system. 3. Not having replays doesn't mean you can't promote E-Sports. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
They promote esports because it's a huge advertisement for their game yet they can't even dish out all the heroes for their pro players to practice with and force their own players to pay money to be on an even footing? If they actually cared about esports I would think that they would try harder in making their games less snowball and less passive. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 29 2012 07:47 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: 1. Obs Mode has already been released for a while. Not sure what you're saying here. 2. Replays are in development, and there's an unofficial replay system. 3. Not having replays doesn't mean you can't promote E-Sports. Not sure why I haven't asked you this before on the LoL Subforum but... Chiharu, do you know why Riot is insistent on keeping to the 2-week patch cycle? This is probably the biggest complaint I have with the game--changing the game that frequently has detrimental effects on the competitive development of the game, and given that the game has reached a certain level of stability, it's impossible for you to assess balance changes within the span of two weeks. The game never gets to settle down and let people thoroughly explore all the strategic possibilities before a set of significant changes alters the game again. The only possible reason to keep to the 2-week patch cycle is the desire to drive out new, unnecessary content every 2 weeks for the sake of profit. The rate at which strategic development and advances happen in any game is EXTREMELY slow. For competitive play, it is important to allow these developments to happen properly. Interference hampers the efforts of these developments, as it makes it difficult for teams to practice new, innovative strategies and refine them without being disrupted. It also discourages the development of counter-strategies to the prevailing popular strategies, as the knowledge that Riot will just nerf what's currently hot decreases the incentives to do so. Furthermore, it's simply impossible to make meaningful changes at this speed. Consider HOW LONG it takes people to properly map out the usefulness of a new champion--champions can remain sleeper hits for a period of several months, and rapid changes before a new champion (or even a recently changed champion) has been thoroughly assessed can actually have detrimental effects. Irelia is the poster child of this. At release she was considered underpowered, and received a substantial buff several weeks later. But over the following 6 months, her play was further and further refined, and she was forced to be nerfed repeatedly--such that her current "balanced" state is actually significantly weaker than her release state. The initial impression that she needed a buff was completely and utterly off--her at-release balance state was arguably *too strong*. DotA, BW, and SC2 all took much slower, more methodical approaches to balance than Riot has, and it has seemed to pay off in all cases. Consider that DotA has been on 6.72f for the better part of 6 months. Consider that in that time, multiple heroes and strategies have come in and out of favor--that opinions of heroes have changed so drastically that a hero like Shadow Demon, that was literally always banned in competitive play near the start of 6.72f was played extremely infrequently by the release of 6.73--with absolutely no changes to the hero. If Icefrog held Riot's balance philosophy, SD would have been nerfed to utter uselessness. Similarly, consider the huge shifts that have occurred in BW competitive play over the last decade, with basically zero intervention from Blizzard (listing all of those would be a thread in and of itself). | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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triangle
United States3803 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:11 Itsmedudeman wrote: I'll lay this out simply for you because you specifically have failed to argue against anything I've said and the fact that you have been saying you should just "ignore" it and because no one has a right to complain about any business. The comparison is for the sake of showing that people have a right to complain about bad production and services from a business that makes revenue off these same people. If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it. People who drop money on this are no different from people who drop money on WoW and expect some maintenance and fixes. They're no different from people who subscribe to an ISP and expect a solid connection and customer support. I've spent 5$ on this game. I have gotten sensational return on my investment. Not sure why I should be mad. | ||
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On February 29 2012 08:11 Itsmedudeman wrote: I'll lay this out simply for you because you specifically have failed to argue against anything I've said and the fact that you have been saying you should just "ignore" it and because no one has a right to complain about any business. The comparison is for the sake of showing that people have a right to complain about bad production and services from a business that makes revenue off these same people. If these people are spending money how is this any different from someone spending money on anything else? You expect some sort of quality and service, but you still don't get it. People who drop money on this are no different from people who drop money on WoW and expect some maintenance and fixes. They're no different from people who subscribe to an ISP and expect a solid connection and customer support. Comparing this game to important public services is a false equivocation, which is a logical fallacy. But even if we do look at it from a business standpoint, it doesn't really make much sense. Riot has a pretty good customer support, and they do provide what they said they would, despite whatever problems. You just don't have a case because they didn't pull off a switcharoo or anything. Like I said, their marketing is blatant. It's right in your face, and they don't try to pretend that they're not trying to get your money through skins and packages that can only be bought with money. But it still works for them. So what does that mean? It means their business model works, and the company itself has no reason to change how they're going about it. As it is now, if you don't like what they're doing to a point of outright disgust, then you simply stop using their product, which is how things actually work in the real world. If you don't like the product a company is giving you, and the company shows no signs of changing their practice, then you just stop giving them business. This isn't any different from WoW, yeah. LoL gets maintenance and fixes, and yeah, they have decent servers and good customer support. You're engaging in an extraordinary waste of time because yes, Riot's system sucks in a lot of ways, no one will disagree with that. But you continue playing it, for whatever reasons, or you just quit and go to a competitor that doesn't have the things that you disagree about (DOTA2). But their business model isn't slimey in a underhanded sense. It's unabashedly direct and blatant that if you find it disagreeable you can just leave it. Which is how it works in the real world. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
Well, company like RIOT will get hated more as they grow bigger. Just like Blizzard, I love Blizzard of 10 years ago much more than I love Blizzard of the present. I have no complaint for RIOT atm, beside the fact that a Chinese company(Tencent) bought them, and Tencent is full of shit imo. Hope RIOT will not turn into anything like Tencent soon. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On February 29 2012 09:53 koreasilver wrote: Comparing this game to important public services is a false equivocation, which is a logical fallacy. But even if we do look at it from a business standpoint, it doesn't really make much sense. Riot has a pretty good customer support, and they do provide what they said they would, despite whatever problems. You just don't have a case because they didn't pull off a switcharoo or anything. Like I said, their marketing is blatant. It's right in your face, and they don't try to pretend that they're not trying to get your money through skins and packages that can only be bought with money. But it still works for them. So what does that mean? It means their business model works, and the company itself has no reason to change how they're going about it. As it is now, if you don't like what they're doing to a point of outright disgust, then you simply stop using their product, which is how things actually work in the real world. If you don't like the product a company is giving you, and the company shows no signs of changing their practice, then you just stop giving them business. This isn't any different from WoW, yeah. LoL gets maintenance and fixes, and yeah, they have decent servers and good customer support. You're engaging in an extraordinary waste of time because yes, Riot's system sucks in a lot of ways, no one will disagree with that. But you continue playing it, for whatever reasons, or you just quit and go to a competitor that doesn't have the things that you disagree about (DOTA2). But their business model isn't slimey in a underhanded sense. It's unabashedly direct and blatant that if you find it disagreeable you can just leave it. Which is how it works in the real world. What do you exactly think the point of this thread was...? I've pretty much been pointing out that RIOT is a shit developer and that people like them for fluffing up videos while behind the scenes they do literally nothing. What's so difficult to understand that little concept and that that alone was the point of this? It's actually not obvious, many people treat RIOT as though they were some sort of safe haven for the people. They aren't, and the business model works because people fall for it. The sad thing here is is that they're ripping off the actual people supporting them over the people who just play the game for free. | ||
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