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On February 23 2012 04:46 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:11 HyperionDreamer wrote:
LoL is 100% easier to watch and play. It's not even close. Yeah, there are a crapload of heroes and spells and such, but here's the concept behind every game. 1. Go to lanes, kill creeps for farm, kill retards on the enemy team that aren't farming and keeping up. 2. Get items with farm. 3. Secure objectives (towers or neutral buffs). 4. Teamfight and win game.
this is a blunt oversimplification, you could do this with sc2 too. lol is only mechanically easier to play. but it's not an easy game in terms of figuring out the best way to win and being able to do it. its like saying soccer is harder than chess. or chess is harder than soccer. if lol would be so easy, you would only see people doing the same thing. but look at pro level lol, the opposite is true. the same for non pro level. as long as you don't have figured out a game, and as long as there is a pro scene, both games are equally hard.
LoL is without a doubt harder to understand to the outsider. Starcraft is about units running around hitting each other and blowing stuff up. Forcefields look like barriers. Lasers look like lasers. Explosions hurt. And the bigger base often means the stronger side. The only thing that isn't obvious that hurts are zerglings and hydras in SC2 because their attack sounds like gentle breezes or bugs splattering across windshields.
LoL is a lot more difficult to understand in that respect. Sure while the density of each player's health bar is a decent indicator of how much punishment they can take, their abilities aren't immediately obvious. Nor are items completely obvious in what they do. Creep ai is also incredibly difficult to understand. Laning phase looks stupidly boring to someone who doesn't understand how it works and the intricacies behind it, teamfights finish in seconds and often just look like a giant explosion of lights. Even to a seasoned veteran they often have to watch the same fight half a dozen times to catch everything.
That being said I still think Starcraft is still the more difficult of the two to play simply because there's a higher mechanical skillcap but that's irrelevant to spectator difficulty.
No, I don't think so. In starcraft you think in terms of expansions, and units to properly defend your expansions. In LoL you think of "let's farm up this lane so I can get big item and win the game". I don't know if you've played LoL at a high level (I have), but one of the HUGE issues that high level players talk about is the one dimensionality of the current metagame. One bruiser/sustain hero top lane, caster AP mid, ranged DPS/support hero bot lane, tanky sustain jungler/ganker. Every. Single. Game. I don't mean to sound blunt or boastful, but LoL is one of the most ridiculously derivative games I've ever played, and a lot of the people who talk about variety and new team compositions are basing that opinion off their super bad level of play where literally anything is viable.
The only thing I can definitely see newcomers to LoL having trouble understanding is the clusterfuck-style teamfights. Often there is so many skills being casted and particle effects going off that you can't really see what's going on, unless you know the heros and exactly what they are supposed to do.
Imagine trying to explain a 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra (brood war if you didn't play it) or a ffe into stargate pressure and early third (starcraft 2) to someone who doesn't even know what the units do. Those builds are based on so much timing, mechanics, and smart play, not to mention the metagame, that you can't just say "this guy just made some units that shoot up to defend his base". But you can explain LoL laning phase in like 10 seconds. Here I go: "Bottom lane is about one ranged hero that can secure his farm and then get big items, and the support hero heals him if he takes damage."
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I thought we were talking about SC2 x.x
If we include BW in this discussion then I'm going to just say that every matchup is harder and more difficult and complex ony any map than any matchup SC2 has to offer and any game LoL will ever have. I could go on about elevator rushes and Sair/DT timings and sunken busts with various marine counts etc etc and how they're all different from very similar yet completely different builds just because of the goals behind them. Besides the point.
Given an equal amount of explanation LoL may be easier to understand, but you have to know that these champs are common AD picks, these are common support picks, these are common AP picks, etc etc. And it's not immediatly evident from their character models. Look at Mordekaiser. How does that look like an AP pick? What about Jarvan tells you he's a jungle pick? What does Swain even do? These things aren't immediatly obvious and take a bit of memorizing to do, whereas you can tell that hydras are ranged dps units really quickly, that colossi are big and do damage, and that siege tanks can hit things that are really far away. Sure economy and timings are much more difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure even a lot of players don't understand those concepts (that's why we have bronze-diamond leagues ;D)
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On February 23 2012 05:24 MCDayC wrote:
I personally find LoL (and any Moba) almost impossible to watch having never played it, I found SC2 much easier when I first started watching with HD and Husky. I also found Quake and all fighting games much easier, I find Moba's really hard to watch in general.
Tell me about it. I have never really played a moba game and whenever I watch someone play them I can't help but see this slugfest where the characters just sit in their lanes and farm mobs. And when action happens, it doesn't last long, nor does it look like the battle is decisive since the other team doesn't march into the enemy base to finish it off (I'm sure this is not always the case, but usually there are still towers left). It just feels like watching one of those long-drawn out mech TvT's. I think it helps SC2 a lot compared to LoL, where when someone wins a battle convincingly, you can see the opponent have nothing as the player marches into their base. With moba games you just don't have that as the two teams grind each other down over the course of an hour or so.
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I find LoL incredibly boring to watch because there is not enough action going on and games are too long. Watching pros farm creeps is just not fun at all. In sc2 the different parts of the games are fun to watch but in LoL only midgame and some late game fight worth it.
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On February 23 2012 06:23 seRapH wrote:
I thought we were talking about SC2 x.x
If we include BW in this discussion then I'm going to just say that every matchup is harder and more difficult and complex ony any map than any matchup SC2 has to offer and any game LoL will ever have. I could go on about elevator rushes and Sair/DT timings and sunken busts with various marine counts etc etc and how they're all different from very similar yet completely different builds just because of the goals behind them. Besides the point.
Given an equal amount of explanation LoL may be easier to understand, but you have to know that these champs are common AD picks, these are common support picks, these are common AP picks, etc etc. And it's not immediatly evident from their character models. Look at Mordekaiser. How does that look like an AP pick? What about Jarvan tells you he's a jungle pick? What does Swain even do? These things aren't immediatly obvious and take a bit of memorizing to do, whereas you can tell that hydras are ranged dps units really quickly, that colossi are big and do damage, and that siege tanks can hit things that are really far away. Sure economy and timings are much more difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure even a lot of players don't understand those concepts (that's why we have bronze-diamond leagues ;D)
Of course that's true for brood war over any other game <3 bw, but you're right that's beside the point. ^_^
I agree with your points about morde/swain, since both of those are super weird heroes that have strange sets of abilities. Morde isn't a traditional caster that wears a wizard hat and carries a staff and puts out a metric ton of damage if they don't immediately die if you look at them wrong, but I think after you watch him for a few minutes you'd get the feeling that he's a super pushy laner who can win almost any drawn out 1v1 fight with a negligible amount of spell vamp. Swain is a super good anti-bruiser who has an AoE root and can stay alive forever if he's got the blue (really underrated hero btw). Jarvan is a lot more obvious.... Tough physical hero with a gap closer and a CC that allows him to come out of jungle and surprise buttsmex a lot of people. Sure you may not be able to immediately tell at first glance, but maybe after 2-3 minutes you'd get the gist of it that whenever morde raises his arm a whole shit ton of stuff in a cone in front of him gets hurt.
That's only a few of the heros in LoL though, and I'd say that most of them are super obvious. It's obvious what vayne does, what brand does, etc etc....
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I think ladder attrition and ladder anxiety (which I think are maybe not the most important, but still pretty important factors behind sc2 viewer numbers) can be allayed just by having a better, more inclusive, more community-friendly UI that encourages more interaction. The fact that it's so isolating only amplifies that anxiety and pressure you feel-- for most 1v1 players, win/lose is really your only interaction with the wider b.net population.
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please...rewrite this blog after you reach lvl30 and play at least ~50 ladder games
and let me know how you feel about the solo queue...lol
it is like a drug..it is bad and u know you should stay away from it for your mental health but...can't resist queuing lol
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I wouldn't limit your arguement over moba (or laning games) to just LoL... imo the main reason LoL has the biggest fanbase is because its always been free
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On February 23 2012 07:02 The6357 wrote:
please...rewrite this blog after you reach lvl30 and play at least ~50 ladder games
and let me know how you feel about the solo queue...lol
it is like a drug..it is bad and u know you should stay away from it for your mental health but...can't resist queuing lol
Hahaha I know about this. For a while before I quit the game I was bleeding elo down from 1750 to like 1600 and kept getting troll fested all day every day.... But I kept queueing and raging...... D=
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As a person who used to play LoL and watch Lol, the experience of watching LoL declined over time. There seems to be at least a superficial lack of variety in the games after a point. After I stopped playing, my desire to watch games stopped completely, whereas there have been periods where I played little SC2 but still watched a lot of games.
Just my 2 cents.
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If only i could get carried in my 1v1s... would be no problem.
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Perhaps the best point the OP made, is that in eSports, spectators are almost entirely limited to players. The fact that LoL is not as punishing as SC2, plus how LoL feels much more casual overall, makes it have a bigger player audience, and therefore spectator audience.
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Arts's are much much much harder to get into than classic resource management rts's.
In arts's you need mass knowledge about heroes and spells.
In rts's all a newbie needs to know are the basic rock-paper-scissors relations between units and some basic economy knowledge and thats all to get you started.
And to people that say that arts's are simple and not intriguing to watch.
My reaction when a friend of mine introduced me to dota, 5-6 years ago was "So thats it? I just go to a lane, fight and thats all? Every game is the same thing? Thats boring".
Yet dota has given me the biggest nerd chills than any other game ever has. Its so awesome I almost pitty those that dont follow it. So do yourselves a favor and give it a chance.
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On February 23 2012 06:24 Keltanokka wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 05:24 MCDayC wrote:
I personally find LoL (and any Moba) almost impossible to watch having never played it, I found SC2 much easier when I first started watching with HD and Husky. I also found Quake and all fighting games much easier, I find Moba's really hard to watch in general. Tell me about it. I have never really played a moba game and whenever I watch someone play them I can't help but see this slugfest where the characters just sit in their lanes and farm mobs. And when action happens, it doesn't last long, nor does it look like the battle is decisive since the other team doesn't march into the enemy base to finish it off (I'm sure this is not always the case, but usually there are still towers left). It just feels like watching one of those long-drawn out mech TvT's. I think it helps SC2 a lot compared to LoL, where when someone wins a battle convincingly, you can see the opponent have nothing as the player marches into their base. With moba games you just don't have that as the two teams grind each other down over the course of an hour or so.
I find this incredibly ironic considering I find that SC2 works the exact same way. Especially TvP.
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On February 23 2012 06:23 seRapH wrote:
I thought we were talking about SC2 x.x
If we include BW in this discussion then I'm going to just say that every matchup is harder and more difficult and complex ony any map than any matchup SC2 has to offer and any game LoL will ever have. I could go on about elevator rushes and Sair/DT timings and sunken busts with various marine counts etc etc and how they're all different from very similar yet completely different builds just because of the goals behind them. Besides the point.
Given an equal amount of explanation LoL may be easier to understand, but you have to know that these champs are common AD picks, these are common support picks, these are common AP picks, etc etc. And it's not immediatly evident from their character models. Look at Mordekaiser. How does that look like an AP pick? What about Jarvan tells you he's a jungle pick? What does Swain even do? These things aren't immediatly obvious and take a bit of memorizing to do, whereas you can tell that hydras are ranged dps units really quickly, that colossi are big and do damage, and that siege tanks can hit things that are really far away. Sure economy and timings are much more difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure even a lot of players don't understand those concepts (that's why we have bronze-diamond leagues ;D)
I remember when I first started and just focused amumu all the time this one game cause he was small and thought he'd die fast.
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On February 23 2012 07:49 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:23 seRapH wrote:
I thought we were talking about SC2 x.x
If we include BW in this discussion then I'm going to just say that every matchup is harder and more difficult and complex ony any map than any matchup SC2 has to offer and any game LoL will ever have. I could go on about elevator rushes and Sair/DT timings and sunken busts with various marine counts etc etc and how they're all different from very similar yet completely different builds just because of the goals behind them. Besides the point.
Given an equal amount of explanation LoL may be easier to understand, but you have to know that these champs are common AD picks, these are common support picks, these are common AP picks, etc etc. And it's not immediatly evident from their character models. Look at Mordekaiser. How does that look like an AP pick? What about Jarvan tells you he's a jungle pick? What does Swain even do? These things aren't immediatly obvious and take a bit of memorizing to do, whereas you can tell that hydras are ranged dps units really quickly, that colossi are big and do damage, and that siege tanks can hit things that are really far away. Sure economy and timings are much more difficult to understand, but I'm pretty sure even a lot of players don't understand those concepts (that's why we have bronze-diamond leagues ;D) I remember when I first started and just focused amumu all the time this one game cause he was small and thought he'd die fast.
Did this too lol. Double thornmail warmogs amumu and I die to lack of knowledge. 2 years later and I die because I thought my Yi would tank tower but then he alpha strikes to de-aggro and then I die x.x
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Sc2 is presented with clean, clear progressions of the game. There are noticable build-ups of tension at various stages of the game. There are key plays in a game that make the crowd go 'ooh' and 'aww'. Clear advantages can be seen through army size/positioning, base count, and production tabs, which in turn makes the game's information very easy to digest.
LoL is a clusterfuck of classes, items, and confusing shiny effects with most of the action being really linear, with no one having clear advantages a lot of the time as there are so many variables in play.
I don't see how it's even really debatable that SC2 is easier to watch to a newcomer.
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It's already been said a lot in this thread, but SC2 in no way is more difficult to understand than LoL - the way you described LoL is completely wrong, whereas if you said SC2 is about killing the other guy through using your units - you wouldn't be as off base.
"The PvP is also less intimidating in LoL, you are still punished for making a mistake, but it doesn't lose you the game as easily as it will in SC2. I don't really have any kind of "Ladder Fear" in LoL, like I partially do in SC2. I will just add, in my experience so far in LoL, PvP is actually EASIER than playing vs the intermediate AI. The Bots in LoL don't really make mistakes that you can jump on, but players do."
This makes me question what level your account is in LoL and if you play ranked - reddit has the same discussion of playing ranked fear as much as starcraft ladder fear is played out. Bots are also 100% win rate for yourself if you play with any logic, losing to bots and beating humans makes me think you've only played a few games to level 5 or something since LoL does change fundamentally at level 30 and ranked.
- Playing as a "totally different" hero also is not nearly as difficult as mastering a race in starcraft. at all.
Either way, the gist of the relevant points is that is "free" and has a massive player base. You can attribute some of Riot's promotion (which just to clarify again for other people does not autoplay from client, merely provides a link when a big tourney is on) to it's success, but it just took off as an easier version of DOTA this past year because it's just fun to play (and playing this with friends gets a lot less boring than 4s or 3s in SC2, where the game is and should be focused on 1s). The same thing happened with SC2, promotion and noob-friendly version of Brood War (and a pre-established scene) allowed SC2 to take off, more people just wanted to play ARTS.
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Are there many more LoL players than SC2 players?
There must be, as someone who has only played LoL a couple of times, when I tune into a stream or tournament I have NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON.
I assume that you need to be a fairly avid LoL player in order to understand what's happening.
I'd surmise that SC2 is much more simple to understand if you hadn't ever played it. (I started playing BW after seeing some moletrap/diggity/klazart english casts.
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I think another reason for more viewers is that there are fewer LoL events going on at any one time. With me, I usually have to choose to either play Starcraft or watch Starcraft with my free time. If there were only a few, well advertised events, I would definitely tune in more often.
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EPT
