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Yes, 300/200 60s + 150/150 90s is intended to be an upgrade you would never get, Blizzard KNOW it is ridiculously expensive already.
It is a deterrent. You will never see 40+ muta balls in high level games again, because even if no Protoss ever gets the upgrade in a competitive game, Zerg knows that they could get it and wipe out 40 mutas in the field with, hypothetically, 10 reasonably microed phoenixes, and not even lose the phoenixes. They won't take that risk if they are smart.
Mutas will be for midgame harass or quick switch to take you off guard from now on, as opposed to the 40 muta balls. Thus, the patch will work EXACTLY as intended: nerf large muta balls without making mutas unviable in general PvZ play.
The fact the upgrade exists at all on the tech tree, even if you never get it, is helping you, Protosses!
  
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How long does it take for a zerg to switch to mutas and make 40 of them vs a protoss making 10 phoenixes?
The only way your suggestion works is if gold league or below. Incidentally, in gold or below, if you could micro your phoenixes, you'd kill 40 mutas with 10 phoenixes still.
Adding things to the fleet beacon? YAY!
Every other factor you can consider? Pointless or directly not yay.
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sigh if only blizz gave us marines also, would be no problem.
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Lets just see how it works out ok?
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your Country52797 Posts
You can probably still make mutas (as a midgame switch) vs a toss that doesn't go 10 pheonixes blindly ^^
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Protosses are going to have to work pretty hard to keep those stargates/fleet beacons alive to get the upgrade fo sho.
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This is actually a response to
On February 22 2012 06:13 Liquid`NonY wrote:
does it make a difference if it's missing or not? it's useless. if some people can't get it, i dont think blizzard should even bother their programmers to fix it
because if people read that they'll think Blizzard had no idea what they were doing because Tyler said so.
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On February 22 2012 08:34 TehTemplar wrote:
You can probably still make mutas (as a midgame switch) vs a toss that doesn't go 10 pheonixes blindly ^^
I'm not suggesting that situation would EVER happen! I'm saying because there is a threat of it, you won't see 40 muta armies. I already said you WOULD still see 10-20 muta harasses.
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On February 22 2012 08:30 Angel_ wrote:
How long does it take for a zerg to switch to mutas and make 40 of them vs a protoss making 10 phoenixes?
The only way your suggestion works is if gold league or below. Incidentally, in gold or below, if you could micro your phoenixes, you'd kill 40 mutas with 10 phoenixes still.
Adding things to the fleet beacon? YAY!
Every other factor you can consider? Pointless or directly not yay.
To make a 40 muta switch, You need to bank 4000 mins and 4000 gas. Think about it.
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On February 22 2012 08:27 Soleron wrote:
Yes, 300/200 60s + 150/150 90s is intended to be an upgrade you would never get, Blizzard KNOW it is ridiculously expensive already.
It is a deterrent. You will never see 40+ muta balls in high level games again, because even if no Protoss ever gets the upgrade in a competitive game, Zerg knows that they could get it and wipe out 40 mutas in the field with, hypothetically, 10 reasonably microed phoenixes, and not even lose the phoenixes. They won't take that risk if they are smart.
Mutas will be for midgame harass or quick switch to take you off guard from now on, as opposed to the 40 muta balls. Thus, the patch will work EXACTLY as intended: nerf large muta balls without making mutas unviable in general PvZ play.
The fact the upgrade exists at all on the tech tree, even if you never get it, is helping you, Protosses!
disagree, scouting no fleet beacon = keep making mutas, even past 40
scouting fleet beacon = enough time to switch and be safe.
its so slow so its easy to scout. upgrade is slow too. and toss cant do this off 2 base without a small army, or off 3 without a lapse in production, so good players will be able to tell even without scouting.
your post applies to bronze-plat
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I use my mutas. Kill your fleet beacon. 
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On February 22 2012 08:33 cmen15 wrote:
sigh if only blizz gave us marines also, would be no problem.
They totally did. REPLICATOR BABY. Now if you're playing 2v2 vs a Zerg and Terran, all you have to do is make 50 replicators and you'll never have to worry about mutas again.
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am i the only one utterly confused by all this talk, from both players and blizzard of people using 40+ mutas? ive NEVER seen this.
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On February 22 2012 08:30 Angel_ wrote:
How long does it take for a zerg to switch to mutas and make 40 of them vs a protoss making 10 phoenixes?
The only way your suggestion works is if gold league or below. Incidentally, in gold or below, if you could micro your phoenixes, you'd kill 40 mutas with 10 phoenixes still.
Adding things to the fleet beacon? YAY!
Every other factor you can consider? Pointless or directly not yay.
Without double stargate, no, you cannot outmicro the muta making zerg with your phoenixes. He can outmicro you easily, and then smash your phoenixes to bits.
As for the OP, if Blizz does not move the upgrade from the fleet beacon, I doubt it will even become the thor of PvZ, as you think it will. Like you said, not many pros will ever touch the darn thing so why would it even be considered a threat?
Plus, spire play transitions great into BL/infestor rape ball. I bet by the time you got to his base after killing his mutas, he'd have an army to smash you to bits, unless you brought a mothership and archons, in which case he will get vortexed and then smash you to bits because you were retarded enough to spend all that gas on archons, phoenixes, a mothership, phoenix upgrade and massive tech.
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On February 22 2012 08:55 turdburgler wrote:
am i the only one utterly confused by all this talk, from both players and blizzard of people using 40+ mutas? ive NEVER seen this.
Count yourself lucky then. While people don't actually get 40+ mutas, they still get 20-30 against protoss and basically permanently stick them in the TvZ midgame. The protoss is stuck on 2-3 bases until he is ready to basetrade, a basetrade that he loses because as soon as he moves out, the Zerg's muta/ling army backstabs him and kills everything.
Also, the Zerg has expanded all over the map by then.
This is, of course, only going to happen if the Zerg doesn't decide he wants to switch to broodlords after getting double your economy.
A lot of protoss players consider muta/ling to be a nightmare. It is beatable, but it's very hard to beat and we haven't had much experience practicing against it. Also, you need pretty good mechanics to beat it in an efficient fashion as opposed to executing it or beating it as Terran.
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On February 22 2012 08:49 -Kaiser- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 08:33 cmen15 wrote:
sigh if only blizz gave us marines also, would be no problem. They totally did. REPLICATOR BABY. Now if you're playing 2v2 vs a Zerg and Terran, all you have to do is make 50 replicators and you'll never have to worry about mutas again.
Hahahhaa good post, very funny
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The problem in SC2 find with PvZ is how easy it is to counter 1 stargate/tech play, ironically the answer is just to create more mutas. Protoss will be low on gas so they will be quite zealot heavy as a result, and muta splash will kill all the phoenixes. Once the phoenix's are dead, make even more mutas until you have done so much damage earl-mid game that Protoss can't catch up.
So the only option is to go 2 stargate play but its a lot less interesting, and almost cheese as you can die to a roach ling bust or solid defensive play.
The upgrade would have been great if it wasn't an upgrade but given to the phoenix from the get go. Once you get Fleet beacon and the upgrade, you may as well have just gone 2 stargate phoenix. Being able to achieve air-dominance with 1 stargate is also the answer to prism play, which everyone thinks is the answer to everything.
Unfortunately this isn't possible until you can achieve air-dominance with 1 stargate, without air-dominance you are playing russian roulette and against good players it ceases to become a solid strategy but a cheesy one that players will learn to adapt to. The whole point of 1 stargate play, is to have enough multitask and micro that you can keep building up your phoenix count slowly while maintaining air-dominance and allowing you to do drop play.
Where am I getting to with this? I dunno, but at this stage the upgrade is useless and needs to be default for the phoenix or at least cybercore/twilight tech and not one that requires a cheese tech pattern.
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On February 22 2012 10:01 sluggaslamoo wrote:
The problem in SC2 find with PvZ is how easy it is to counter 1 stargate/tech play, ironically the answer is just to create more mutas. Protoss will be low on gas so they will be quite zealot heavy as a result, and muta splash will kill all the phoenixes. Once the phoenix's are dead, make even more mutas until you have done so much damage earl-mid game that Protoss can't catch up.
So the only option is to go 2 stargate play but its a lot less interesting, and almost cheese as you can die to a roach ling bust or solid defensive play.
The upgrade would have been great if it wasn't an upgrade but given to the phoenix from the get go. Once you get Fleet beacon and the upgrade, you may as well have just gone 2 stargate phoenix. Being able to achieve air-dominance with 1 stargate is also the answer to prism play, which everyone thinks is the answer to everything.
Unfortunately this isn't possible until you can achieve air-dominance with 1 stargate, without air-dominance you are playing russian roulette and against good players it ceases to become a solid strategy but a cheesy one that players will learn to adapt to. The whole point of 1 stargate play, is to have enough multitask and micro that you can keep building up your phoenix count slowly while maintaining air-dominance and allowing you to do drop play.
Where am I getting to with this? I dunno, but at this stage the upgrade is useless and needs to be default for the phoenix or at least cybercore/twilight tech and not one that requires a cheese tech pattern.
I feel like this sums up a lot of issues with Protoss at the moment anyway. Most games it feels like Protoss has to surprise you with tech and hit a strong timing. Somehow PvZ/ZvP manages to be hard for both sides depending on the openings. It's not a long drawn out battle in either case but usually a decisive push that determines the game. If Zerg goes muta/ling, Protoss has a much harder time in the matchup but if Zerg uses a ground based roach/hydra with corrupters for colossus, the game is infinitely harder to play as the Zerg. Forcefields might be the sole factor for the matchup being out of control and in all honesty it's the reason why mutas are so good. They aren't limited by terrain. The fact that you need two stargates to play against this style means that most openings are going to feel like cheese rather than a solid strategy. I'm not sure if you could add on stargates as a response to seeing a spire going up and crank out phoenix but it seems rather unlikely that anyone who gets stargates would choose to not open with them.
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This upgrade is pretty bunk.Pro players were using high templars before, still will, same thing with infestors. I don't think anyone will ever use this upgrade besides plat-, because even if it raises the range to something ridiculous, people still have to micro, and they will still complain that they have to micro, just like they did before, and blizzard will respond.(Damn that was a lot of commas)
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On February 22 2012 10:58 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
This upgrade is pretty bunk.Pro players were using high templars before, still will, same thing with infestors. I don't think anyone will ever use this upgrade besides plat-, because even if it raises the range to something ridiculous, people still have to micro, and they will still complain that they have to micro, just like they did before, and blizzard will respond.(Damn that was a lot of commas)
Sorry to make a BW reference, but nobody complains about having to do constant Corsair micro the entire game (slowly build them up while teching, scouting, denying overlords, stopping muta backstabs, stopping shuttle snipes) and its one of the coolest things about BW and makes PvZ really fun.
Honestly this upgrade if done well will stop the single big blob battle into gg syndrome that we are experiencing with PvZ at the moment. It will open doors to drop/harass play (phoenix/storm-drops), interesting tech play (carrier-pheonix // phoenix-templar), aggressive play (early phoenix/zealot/archon 3rd denial). The single reason stopping all this is the inablility for Toss to achieve air-dominance without a significant investment and losing any thing that isn't a deathball to Muta Ling.
When you have 20 mutas on the field, you can have overlords all over the map, and prevent Toss from doing any squad based play, drop play, greedy expansions, completely forcing them into boring turtle into colossus/stalker/storm timing attacks.
Of course this doesn't make Muta/Ling unviable either, it just stops all the stupidity in the matchup, because now Toss has a solid strategy that relies on micro to be effective, which obviously Zerg can also exploit.
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On February 22 2012 11:26 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 10:58 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
This upgrade is pretty bunk.Pro players were using high templars before, still will, same thing with infestors. I don't think anyone will ever use this upgrade besides plat-, because even if it raises the range to something ridiculous, people still have to micro, and they will still complain that they have to micro, just like they did before, and blizzard will respond.(Damn that was a lot of commas) Sorry to make a BW reference, but nobody complains about having to do constant Corsair micro the entire game (slowly build them up while teching, scouting, denying overlords, stopping muta backstabs, stopping shuttle snipes) and its one of the coolest things about BW and makes PvZ really fun. Honestly this upgrade if done well will stop the single big blob battle into gg syndrome that we are experiencing with PvZ at the moment. It will open doors to drop/harass play (phoenix/storm-drops), interesting tech play (carrier-pheonix // phoenix-templar), aggressive play (early phoenix/zealot/archon 3rd denial). The single reason stopping all this is the inablility for Toss to achieve air-dominance without a significant investment and losing any thing that isn't a deathball to Muta Ling. When you have 20 mutas on the field, you can have overlords all over the map, and prevent Toss from doing any squad based play, drop play, greedy expansions, completely forcing them into boring turtle into colossus/stalker/storm timing attacks. Of course this doesn't make Muta/Ling unviable either, it just stops all the stupidity in the matchup, because now Toss has a solid strategy that relies on micro to be effective, which obviously Zerg can also exploit.
I'm sorry, I doubt we will see any new strategies unless blizzard stops changing the metagame every patch cycle.
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On February 22 2012 11:49 mrafaeldie12 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 11:26 sluggaslamoo wrote:On February 22 2012 10:58 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
This upgrade is pretty bunk.Pro players were using high templars before, still will, same thing with infestors. I don't think anyone will ever use this upgrade besides plat-, because even if it raises the range to something ridiculous, people still have to micro, and they will still complain that they have to micro, just like they did before, and blizzard will respond.(Damn that was a lot of commas) Sorry to make a BW reference, but nobody complains about having to do constant Corsair micro the entire game (slowly build them up while teching, scouting, denying overlords, stopping muta backstabs, stopping shuttle snipes) and its one of the coolest things about BW and makes PvZ really fun. Honestly this upgrade if done well will stop the single big blob battle into gg syndrome that we are experiencing with PvZ at the moment. It will open doors to drop/harass play (phoenix/storm-drops), interesting tech play (carrier-pheonix // phoenix-templar), aggressive play (early phoenix/zealot/archon 3rd denial). The single reason stopping all this is the inablility for Toss to achieve air-dominance without a significant investment and losing any thing that isn't a deathball to Muta Ling. When you have 20 mutas on the field, you can have overlords all over the map, and prevent Toss from doing any squad based play, drop play, greedy expansions, completely forcing them into boring turtle into colossus/stalker/storm timing attacks. Of course this doesn't make Muta/Ling unviable either, it just stops all the stupidity in the matchup, because now Toss has a solid strategy that relies on micro to be effective, which obviously Zerg can also exploit. I'm sorry, I doubt we will see any new strategies unless blizzard stops changing the metagame every patch cycle.
Don't patch changes usually cause people to do more strategies than anything else?
Especially buffs, once the buffed the warp prism, it's usage exploded--I don't see why people won't experiment with the new Phoenix upgrade.
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On February 22 2012 12:02 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 11:49 mrafaeldie12 wrote:On February 22 2012 11:26 sluggaslamoo wrote:On February 22 2012 10:58 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
This upgrade is pretty bunk.Pro players were using high templars before, still will, same thing with infestors. I don't think anyone will ever use this upgrade besides plat-, because even if it raises the range to something ridiculous, people still have to micro, and they will still complain that they have to micro, just like they did before, and blizzard will respond.(Damn that was a lot of commas) Sorry to make a BW reference, but nobody complains about having to do constant Corsair micro the entire game (slowly build them up while teching, scouting, denying overlords, stopping muta backstabs, stopping shuttle snipes) and its one of the coolest things about BW and makes PvZ really fun. Honestly this upgrade if done well will stop the single big blob battle into gg syndrome that we are experiencing with PvZ at the moment. It will open doors to drop/harass play (phoenix/storm-drops), interesting tech play (carrier-pheonix // phoenix-templar), aggressive play (early phoenix/zealot/archon 3rd denial). The single reason stopping all this is the inablility for Toss to achieve air-dominance without a significant investment and losing any thing that isn't a deathball to Muta Ling. When you have 20 mutas on the field, you can have overlords all over the map, and prevent Toss from doing any squad based play, drop play, greedy expansions, completely forcing them into boring turtle into colossus/stalker/storm timing attacks. Of course this doesn't make Muta/Ling unviable either, it just stops all the stupidity in the matchup, because now Toss has a solid strategy that relies on micro to be effective, which obviously Zerg can also exploit. I'm sorry, I doubt we will see any new strategies unless blizzard stops changing the metagame every patch cycle. Don't patch changes usually cause people to do more strategies than anything else? Especially buffs, once the buffed the warp prism, it's usage exploded--I don't see why people won't experiment with the new Phoenix upgrade.
Well that is quite untrue actually, after Infestor Ling was nerfed, people only detracted from strategies rather than add.It was common to see players getting high templars to counter infestor ling off of two bases, now that is just silly, nobody goes infestor ling anymore. And if you want to go deeper, 5rax reaper is now story .
editeople already went mass phoenix before, even vs mutas. I think this ghost nerf will probably hurt terrans more than blizzard first tought possibly forcing them into a corner. But eh we'll see.
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*see Zerg creating Spire and scouting with Overlord*
*build Fleet Beacon in front of Overlord*
*watch Spire cancel*
Is that essentially what the goal is? ^_^
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I am suprised at people shrugging this upgrade off.
So, lets assume this, you scout a zerg going mutas and you want to counter it with phoenix.
Phoenix are supposed to be good right? And you hate mutas because even blinkstalkers are too slow to stop the harass yes?
You place down 2 stargates and start pumping phoenixes.
But, the way the game is without phoenix range is that it just doesnt work. The zerg will have 6 gas and he can use larva to turn all of his gas into mutas. You probably only have half of the phoenixes that he has mutas.
But you might say, phoenix are able to kite mutas so you're still able to kill so many mutas for free?
Except not really, with minimal easy micro mutas can deal with phoenix micro easy.
Think of it like marines vs stalkers, if you a-move your marines vs stalkers and stalkers micro a bit, your marines will eventually die. Yet with stutterstep you can easily pick off some stalkers and not take any unnessecary damage from stalkers kiting you. With phoenix being the marines, and mutas being the stalkers in this analogy, the situation is exactly the same.
If you get your range upgrade about matching the time when u reach about 10 phoenixes, you will probably kill any amount of mutas he has, and air dominance will be yours. This is really amazing upgrade especially if you go for a air-heavy build, like the voidray+colossi deathball. You will want mothership (and air upgrades) anyway, so the fleet beacon is no problem.
Ok i'm rambling a bit too much but tl;dr
atm phoenix are useless vs muta, upgrade makes phoenix viable vs muta
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On February 22 2012 13:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
*see Zerg creating Spire and scouting with Overlord*
*build Fleet Beacon in front of Overlord*
*watch Spire cancel*
Is that essentially what the goal is? ^_^
I remember fucking with Terran with early spire timings, but this is more likely to happen.
*see Zerg creating Spire and scouting with Overlord*
*build Fleet Beacon in front of Overlord*
*watch Spire cancel*
*watch Roach/Ling all in
In higher levels making a big investment like that and not using it is just leaving yourself open to exploitation. Therefore if Protoss goes Stargate/Beacon, Zerg is either free to expand or all in, during the time Protoss is essentially 300/200 + 150/150 behind.
On February 22 2012 14:49 HoMM wrote:
I am suprised at people shrugging this upgrade off.
So, lets assume this, you scout a zerg going mutas and you want to counter it with phoenix.
Phoenix are supposed to be good right? And you hate mutas because even blinkstalkers are too slow to stop the harass yes?
You place down 2 stargates and start pumping phoenixes.
But, the way the game is without phoenix range is that it just doesnt work. The zerg will have 6 gas and he can use larva to turn all of his gas into mutas. You probably only have half of the phoenixes that he has mutas.
But you might say, phoenix are able to kite mutas so you're still able to kill so many mutas for free?
Except not really, with minimal easy micro mutas can deal with phoenix micro easy.
Think of it like marines vs stalkers, if you a-move your marines vs stalkers and stalkers micro a bit, your marines will eventually die. Yet with stutterstep you can easily pick off some stalkers and not take any unnessecary damage from stalkers kiting you. With phoenix being the marines, and mutas being the stalkers in this analogy, the situation is exactly the same.
If you get your range upgrade about matching the time when u reach about 10 phoenixes, you will probably kill any amount of mutas he has, and air dominance will be yours. This is really amazing upgrade especially if you go for a air-heavy build, like the voidray+colossi deathball. You will want mothership (and air upgrades) anyway, so the fleet beacon is no problem.
Ok i'm rambling a bit too much but tl;dr
atm phoenix are useless vs muta, upgrade makes phoenix viable vs muta
This is the very issue I'm really trying to highlight.
I'd really like to have the phoenix be used not in a deathball timing attack sense, but a scouting/harass sense allowing Protoss to engage in really aggressive and interesting tech paths.
I wanna be moving out with my first phoenix and building up from there, using my first scouting phoenix to scout out greediness and tech, and then use my prisms to control base numbers. From then on I will have about 8 phoenix's max while teching hard and building my army, flying around the map constantly controlling queen, muta and overlord count.
This isn't possible at the moment because I can't micro Phoenixs against Muta, if I could sure, let Zerg get mutas, but I should be able to control muta numbers with pro multitask.
This means I can use constant aggressive with small armies around the map because the mutas will be busy dealing with phoenixs rather than eliminating my harass squads, problem with 2 stargate is that I essentially have no army at all for a while and then I bust out with an air-deathball essentially and hope he actually went mutas.
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I weep for my overlords when I think about phoenix +range rush.
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The main reason IMO for this upgrade is because many zergs go muta to counter stargate expands. This is because in smaller stargate numbers mutas wreck phoenix/void rays. Then the Zergs take there third and keep the muta ball up, while toss is forced to switch to templar tech for blink/and/or/storm, as well as 2 cannons per mineral line. Against a good muta player the tosses third will be very very late if they didn't open templar tech. But in the case with the phoenix upgrade, toss players can open stargate and if its countered with mutas, instead of going council blink, archives storm, they can go beacon phoenix range. This allows toss to keep muta balls controlled and a viable option for harassing zerg mineral lines even with spore crawlers/queens while taking there own third.
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On February 22 2012 21:23 Mementoss wrote:
The main reason IMO for this upgrade is because many zergs go muta to counter stargate expands. This is because in smaller stargate numbers mutas wreck phoenix/void rays. Then the Zergs take there third and keep the muta ball up, while toss is forced to switch to templar tech for blink/and/or/storm, as well as 2 cannons per mineral line. Against a good muta player the tosses third will be very very late if they didn't open templar tech. But in the case with the phoenix upgrade, toss players can open stargate and if its countered with mutas, instead of going council blink, archives storm, they can go beacon phoenix range. This allows toss to keep muta balls controlled and a viable option for harassing zerg mineral lines even with spore crawlers/queens while taking there own third.
I want to aplaud this post right here.
Yes in theory we could keep the muta ball from getting out of control with phoenix, but once you get to the point where a muta ball oneshots 2 (!!!!) phoenix with 1 focus fire, there is really no turning back and you basically wasted alot of resources on a dead end tech path. So now with about 10 phoenixes, which you can get from 1 stargate essentially, you get a fleet beacon while taking your third and get the range upgrade, and all the sudden we FINALLY have a harass unit that is viable throughout the whole game in PvZ.
So ty for the change, it opens up more tech paths for the protoss to go, either templar tech or stargate tech in PvZ
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On February 22 2012 11:49 mrafaeldie12 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 11:26 sluggaslamoo wrote:On February 22 2012 10:58 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
This upgrade is pretty bunk.Pro players were using high templars before, still will, same thing with infestors. I don't think anyone will ever use this upgrade besides plat-, because even if it raises the range to something ridiculous, people still have to micro, and they will still complain that they have to micro, just like they did before, and blizzard will respond.(Damn that was a lot of commas) Sorry to make a BW reference, but nobody complains about having to do constant Corsair micro the entire game (slowly build them up while teching, scouting, denying overlords, stopping muta backstabs, stopping shuttle snipes) and its one of the coolest things about BW and makes PvZ really fun. Honestly this upgrade if done well will stop the single big blob battle into gg syndrome that we are experiencing with PvZ at the moment. It will open doors to drop/harass play (phoenix/storm-drops), interesting tech play (carrier-pheonix // phoenix-templar), aggressive play (early phoenix/zealot/archon 3rd denial). The single reason stopping all this is the inablility for Toss to achieve air-dominance without a significant investment and losing any thing that isn't a deathball to Muta Ling. When you have 20 mutas on the field, you can have overlords all over the map, and prevent Toss from doing any squad based play, drop play, greedy expansions, completely forcing them into boring turtle into colossus/stalker/storm timing attacks. Of course this doesn't make Muta/Ling unviable either, it just stops all the stupidity in the matchup, because now Toss has a solid strategy that relies on micro to be effective, which obviously Zerg can also exploit. I'm sorry, I doubt we will see any new strategies unless blizzard stops changing the metagame every patch cycle.
Yeah because 1 key with 30-40 mutas in a control group makes for entertaining game play.
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On February 22 2012 13:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
*see Zerg creating Spire and scouting with Overlord*
*build Fleet Beacon in front of Overlord*
*watch Spire cancel*
Is that essentially what the goal is? ^_^
allow me to finish that thought.
*kill overlord*
*cancel fleet beacon*
*go 2 robo colo*
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Yeah it will be much harder to to defend with spores against 6 range Phoenixes.
I have to say I don't get how P has any problem with mutas, 2 stargates with constant void ray phoenix production completely wreck zerg air, mutas are only viable when toss stops the production of air units.
I'm looking forward to microing and balancing the numbers of Corruptors and Mutas against Phoenixes.
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On February 23 2012 06:10 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 13:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
*see Zerg creating Spire and scouting with Overlord*
*build Fleet Beacon in front of Overlord*
*watch Spire cancel*
Is that essentially what the goal is? ^_^ allow me to finish that thought. *kill overlord* *cancel fleet beacon* *go 2 robo colo*
Where are you getting all of this gas?!
I was super excited for this upgrade, now I'm just sad.
450 minerals 350 gas and 170 in game seconds... are you kidding me?
Overall to get to this point it's actually 600 mins 500 gas and 230 in game seconds to get to this point.
As soon as you see the fleet beacon, it's easy to stop muta production and ling roach all-in, Good luck getting out collosus, even if you do cancel the fleet beacon. Hopefully you only made a void ray and he didn't see it, because if you made a pheonix or two, they are completely useless.
"Oh but you force a reaction with pheonix" Nope, just queens, which are useful anyways.
Protoss air is BRUTAL again zerg, as is.
IMO drop 10 seconds in game seconds on the fleet beacon, drop 25 gas from pheonix, and drop the range upgrade by 30 in game seconds.
easier to hold mutas with pheonix before range, faster range, yet you are still committing a lot of gas to air, so a zerg tech switch will still hurt you (although now you can get another pheonix to counter harass, while you are narrowly or completely losing your base to a roach ling all-in.)
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On February 27 2012 04:24 jaman4dbz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:10 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 22 2012 13:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
*see Zerg creating Spire and scouting with Overlord*
*build Fleet Beacon in front of Overlord*
*watch Spire cancel*
Is that essentially what the goal is? ^_^ allow me to finish that thought. *kill overlord* *cancel fleet beacon* *go 2 robo colo* Where are you getting all of this gas?! I was super excited for this upgrade, now I'm just sad. 450 minerals 350 gas and 170 in game seconds... are you kidding me? Overall to get to this point it's actually 600 mins 500 gas and 230 in game seconds to get to this point. As soon as you see the fleet beacon, it's easy to stop muta production and ling roach all-in, Good luck getting out collosus, even if you do cancel the fleet beacon. Hopefully you only made a void ray and he didn't see it, because if you made a pheonix or two, they are completely useless. "Oh but you force a reaction with pheonix" Nope, just queens, which are useful anyways. Protoss air is BRUTAL again zerg, as is. IMO drop 10 seconds in game seconds on the fleet beacon, drop 25 gas from pheonix, and drop the range upgrade by 30 in game seconds. easier to hold mutas with pheonix before range, faster range, yet you are still committing a lot of gas to air, so a zerg tech switch will still hurt you (although now you can get another pheonix to counter harass, while you are narrowly or completely losing your base to a roach ling all-in.)
Aren't you forgetting about chronoboost? And dude, jesus, with zerg going 3 bases as an answer to FFE or 1 gate expand Protoss air comes out much faster - for zerg the lair is done and protoss already has some air units!
It's impossible to go 2 stargate phoenix and lose to 3 base zerg mutas.
Even if zerg is going for mutas from 2 bases then he's behind in economy which means getting colossus as an answer to roach ling isn't such a problem.
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I woulda made it a +1 range 150/100 up from the Cyber core o.o
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On February 27 2012 10:07 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 04:24 jaman4dbz wrote:On February 23 2012 06:10 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 22 2012 13:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
*see Zerg creating Spire and scouting with Overlord*
*build Fleet Beacon in front of Overlord*
*watch Spire cancel*
Is that essentially what the goal is? ^_^ allow me to finish that thought. *kill overlord* *cancel fleet beacon* *go 2 robo colo* Where are you getting all of this gas?! I was super excited for this upgrade, now I'm just sad. 450 minerals 350 gas and 170 in game seconds... are you kidding me? Overall to get to this point it's actually 600 mins 500 gas and 230 in game seconds to get to this point. As soon as you see the fleet beacon, it's easy to stop muta production and ling roach all-in, Good luck getting out collosus, even if you do cancel the fleet beacon. Hopefully you only made a void ray and he didn't see it, because if you made a pheonix or two, they are completely useless. "Oh but you force a reaction with pheonix" Nope, just queens, which are useful anyways. Protoss air is BRUTAL again zerg, as is. IMO drop 10 seconds in game seconds on the fleet beacon, drop 25 gas from pheonix, and drop the range upgrade by 30 in game seconds. easier to hold mutas with pheonix before range, faster range, yet you are still committing a lot of gas to air, so a zerg tech switch will still hurt you (although now you can get another pheonix to counter harass, while you are narrowly or completely losing your base to a roach ling all-in.) Aren't you forgetting about chronoboost? And dude, jesus, with zerg going 3 bases as an answer to FFE or 1 gate expand Protoss air comes out much faster - for zerg the lair is done and protoss already has some air units! It's impossible to go 2 stargate phoenix and lose to 3 base zerg mutas. Even if zerg is going for mutas from 2 bases then he's behind in economy which means getting colossus as an answer to roach ling isn't such a problem.
Don't make mutas, mass queen and spore up and spine up, then put down a hydra-den and make lings to defend. If we don't break the wall of spines, you take a fourth and fifth with your massive number of spines and you already have a spire to make corrupters for the late game. When the late game happens, toss has tons of useless pheonix and is down bases. On the plus side, they are ready against broodlords with the fleet beacon, but it won't matter because the resulting roach ling hydra all-in will crush toss before they get enough collosi to counter it. Worst comes to worst, you back up stutter step, taking loses while punishing stalkers who go too far onto creep with stutterstep, then you make just enough corruptors to counter the number of collosi.
generally, worst comes to worst and zerg doesn't make mutas, but still has the spire for inevitable corruptors, while the toss has 1000+ gas wasted in pheonix.
Another idea just popped in my head. Lower the range of corruptors by 1, so pheonix can kite them, and poke in and kill off one or two here and there. They would be raped in a 1v1 battle, but they could help thin the numbers so toss can doa collosus push without being crushed by the instantly produced perfect number of corruptors.
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On February 27 2012 10:32 jaman4dbz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2012 10:07 beetlelisk wrote:On February 27 2012 04:24 jaman4dbz wrote:On February 23 2012 06:10 Erik.TheRed wrote:On February 22 2012 13:51 Zeke50100 wrote:
*see Zerg creating Spire and scouting with Overlord*
*build Fleet Beacon in front of Overlord*
*watch Spire cancel*
Is that essentially what the goal is? ^_^ allow me to finish that thought. *kill overlord* *cancel fleet beacon* *go 2 robo colo* Where are you getting all of this gas?! I was super excited for this upgrade, now I'm just sad. 450 minerals 350 gas and 170 in game seconds... are you kidding me? Overall to get to this point it's actually 600 mins 500 gas and 230 in game seconds to get to this point. As soon as you see the fleet beacon, it's easy to stop muta production and ling roach all-in, Good luck getting out collosus, even if you do cancel the fleet beacon. Hopefully you only made a void ray and he didn't see it, because if you made a pheonix or two, they are completely useless. "Oh but you force a reaction with pheonix" Nope, just queens, which are useful anyways. Protoss air is BRUTAL again zerg, as is. IMO drop 10 seconds in game seconds on the fleet beacon, drop 25 gas from pheonix, and drop the range upgrade by 30 in game seconds. easier to hold mutas with pheonix before range, faster range, yet you are still committing a lot of gas to air, so a zerg tech switch will still hurt you (although now you can get another pheonix to counter harass, while you are narrowly or completely losing your base to a roach ling all-in.) Aren't you forgetting about chronoboost? And dude, jesus, with zerg going 3 bases as an answer to FFE or 1 gate expand Protoss air comes out much faster - for zerg the lair is done and protoss already has some air units! It's impossible to go 2 stargate phoenix and lose to 3 base zerg mutas. Even if zerg is going for mutas from 2 bases then he's behind in economy which means getting colossus as an answer to roach ling isn't such a problem. Don't make mutas, mass queen and spore up and spine up, then put down a hydra-den and make lings to defend. If we don't break the wall of spines, you take a fourth and fifth with your massive number of spines and you already have a spire to make corrupters for the late game. When the late game happens, toss has tons of useless pheonix and is down bases. On the plus side, they are ready against broodlords with the fleet beacon, but it won't matter because the resulting roach ling hydra all-in will crush toss before they get enough collosi to counter it. Worst comes to worst, you back up stutter step, taking loses while punishing stalkers who go too far onto creep with stutterstep, then you make just enough corruptors to counter the number of collosi. generally, worst comes to worst and zerg doesn't make mutas, but still has the spire for inevitable corruptors, while the toss has 1000+ gas wasted in pheonix. Another idea just popped in my head. Lower the range of corruptors by 1, so pheonix can kite them, and poke in and kill off one or two here and there. They would be raped in a 1v1 battle, but they could help thin the numbers so toss can doa collosus push without being crushed by the instantly produced perfect number of corruptors.
Your idea of reducing the range of corrs is imbalanced. Phoenix isn't just a muta deterrent, it's a great harassing tool.
Instead of making 1 unit good against everything, just add Void Rays against Corruptors. It's not easy to take new bases with void rays flying around and zerg can't really counter attack because hydras are too slow.
Am I forgetting about something? I have a feeling I am.
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EPT
