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Yes, 300/200 60s + 150/150 90s is intended to be an upgrade you would never get, Blizzard KNOW it is ridiculously expensive already.
It is a deterrent. You will never see 40+ muta balls in high level games again, because even if no Protoss ever gets the upgrade in a competitive game, Zerg knows that they could get it and wipe out 40 mutas in the field with, hypothetically, 10 reasonably microed phoenixes, and not even lose the phoenixes. They won't take that risk if they are smart.
Mutas will be for midgame harass or quick switch to take you off guard from now on, as opposed to the 40 muta balls. Thus, the patch will work EXACTLY as intended: nerf large muta balls without making mutas unviable in general PvZ play.
The fact the upgrade exists at all on the tech tree, even if you never get it, is helping you, Protosses!
  
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How long does it take for a zerg to switch to mutas and make 40 of them vs a protoss making 10 phoenixes?
The only way your suggestion works is if gold league or below. Incidentally, in gold or below, if you could micro your phoenixes, you'd kill 40 mutas with 10 phoenixes still.
Adding things to the fleet beacon? YAY!
Every other factor you can consider? Pointless or directly not yay.
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sigh if only blizz gave us marines also, would be no problem.
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Lets just see how it works out ok?
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your Country52798 Posts
You can probably still make mutas (as a midgame switch) vs a toss that doesn't go 10 pheonixes blindly ^^
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Protosses are going to have to work pretty hard to keep those stargates/fleet beacons alive to get the upgrade fo sho.
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This is actually a response to
On February 22 2012 06:13 Liquid`NonY wrote:
does it make a difference if it's missing or not? it's useless. if some people can't get it, i dont think blizzard should even bother their programmers to fix it
because if people read that they'll think Blizzard had no idea what they were doing because Tyler said so.
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On February 22 2012 08:34 TehTemplar wrote:
You can probably still make mutas (as a midgame switch) vs a toss that doesn't go 10 pheonixes blindly ^^
I'm not suggesting that situation would EVER happen! I'm saying because there is a threat of it, you won't see 40 muta armies. I already said you WOULD still see 10-20 muta harasses.
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On February 22 2012 08:30 Angel_ wrote:
How long does it take for a zerg to switch to mutas and make 40 of them vs a protoss making 10 phoenixes?
The only way your suggestion works is if gold league or below. Incidentally, in gold or below, if you could micro your phoenixes, you'd kill 40 mutas with 10 phoenixes still.
Adding things to the fleet beacon? YAY!
Every other factor you can consider? Pointless or directly not yay.
To make a 40 muta switch, You need to bank 4000 mins and 4000 gas. Think about it.
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On February 22 2012 08:27 Soleron wrote:
Yes, 300/200 60s + 150/150 90s is intended to be an upgrade you would never get, Blizzard KNOW it is ridiculously expensive already.
It is a deterrent. You will never see 40+ muta balls in high level games again, because even if no Protoss ever gets the upgrade in a competitive game, Zerg knows that they could get it and wipe out 40 mutas in the field with, hypothetically, 10 reasonably microed phoenixes, and not even lose the phoenixes. They won't take that risk if they are smart.
Mutas will be for midgame harass or quick switch to take you off guard from now on, as opposed to the 40 muta balls. Thus, the patch will work EXACTLY as intended: nerf large muta balls without making mutas unviable in general PvZ play.
The fact the upgrade exists at all on the tech tree, even if you never get it, is helping you, Protosses!
disagree, scouting no fleet beacon = keep making mutas, even past 40
scouting fleet beacon = enough time to switch and be safe.
its so slow so its easy to scout. upgrade is slow too. and toss cant do this off 2 base without a small army, or off 3 without a lapse in production, so good players will be able to tell even without scouting.
your post applies to bronze-plat
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United States2513 Posts
I use my mutas. Kill your fleet beacon. 
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On February 22 2012 08:33 cmen15 wrote:
sigh if only blizz gave us marines also, would be no problem.
They totally did. REPLICATOR BABY. Now if you're playing 2v2 vs a Zerg and Terran, all you have to do is make 50 replicators and you'll never have to worry about mutas again.
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am i the only one utterly confused by all this talk, from both players and blizzard of people using 40+ mutas? ive NEVER seen this.
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On February 22 2012 08:30 Angel_ wrote:
How long does it take for a zerg to switch to mutas and make 40 of them vs a protoss making 10 phoenixes?
The only way your suggestion works is if gold league or below. Incidentally, in gold or below, if you could micro your phoenixes, you'd kill 40 mutas with 10 phoenixes still.
Adding things to the fleet beacon? YAY!
Every other factor you can consider? Pointless or directly not yay.
Without double stargate, no, you cannot outmicro the muta making zerg with your phoenixes. He can outmicro you easily, and then smash your phoenixes to bits.
As for the OP, if Blizz does not move the upgrade from the fleet beacon, I doubt it will even become the thor of PvZ, as you think it will. Like you said, not many pros will ever touch the darn thing so why would it even be considered a threat?
Plus, spire play transitions great into BL/infestor rape ball. I bet by the time you got to his base after killing his mutas, he'd have an army to smash you to bits, unless you brought a mothership and archons, in which case he will get vortexed and then smash you to bits because you were retarded enough to spend all that gas on archons, phoenixes, a mothership, phoenix upgrade and massive tech.
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On February 22 2012 08:55 turdburgler wrote:
am i the only one utterly confused by all this talk, from both players and blizzard of people using 40+ mutas? ive NEVER seen this.
Count yourself lucky then. While people don't actually get 40+ mutas, they still get 20-30 against protoss and basically permanently stick them in the TvZ midgame. The protoss is stuck on 2-3 bases until he is ready to basetrade, a basetrade that he loses because as soon as he moves out, the Zerg's muta/ling army backstabs him and kills everything.
Also, the Zerg has expanded all over the map by then.
This is, of course, only going to happen if the Zerg doesn't decide he wants to switch to broodlords after getting double your economy.
A lot of protoss players consider muta/ling to be a nightmare. It is beatable, but it's very hard to beat and we haven't had much experience practicing against it. Also, you need pretty good mechanics to beat it in an efficient fashion as opposed to executing it or beating it as Terran.
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On February 22 2012 08:49 -Kaiser- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 08:33 cmen15 wrote:
sigh if only blizz gave us marines also, would be no problem. They totally did. REPLICATOR BABY. Now if you're playing 2v2 vs a Zerg and Terran, all you have to do is make 50 replicators and you'll never have to worry about mutas again.
Hahahhaa good post, very funny
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The problem in SC2 find with PvZ is how easy it is to counter 1 stargate/tech play, ironically the answer is just to create more mutas. Protoss will be low on gas so they will be quite zealot heavy as a result, and muta splash will kill all the phoenixes. Once the phoenix's are dead, make even more mutas until you have done so much damage earl-mid game that Protoss can't catch up.
So the only option is to go 2 stargate play but its a lot less interesting, and almost cheese as you can die to a roach ling bust or solid defensive play.
The upgrade would have been great if it wasn't an upgrade but given to the phoenix from the get go. Once you get Fleet beacon and the upgrade, you may as well have just gone 2 stargate phoenix. Being able to achieve air-dominance with 1 stargate is also the answer to prism play, which everyone thinks is the answer to everything.
Unfortunately this isn't possible until you can achieve air-dominance with 1 stargate, without air-dominance you are playing russian roulette and against good players it ceases to become a solid strategy but a cheesy one that players will learn to adapt to. The whole point of 1 stargate play, is to have enough multitask and micro that you can keep building up your phoenix count slowly while maintaining air-dominance and allowing you to do drop play.
Where am I getting to with this? I dunno, but at this stage the upgrade is useless and needs to be default for the phoenix or at least cybercore/twilight tech and not one that requires a cheese tech pattern.
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On February 22 2012 10:01 sluggaslamoo wrote:
The problem in SC2 find with PvZ is how easy it is to counter 1 stargate/tech play, ironically the answer is just to create more mutas. Protoss will be low on gas so they will be quite zealot heavy as a result, and muta splash will kill all the phoenixes. Once the phoenix's are dead, make even more mutas until you have done so much damage earl-mid game that Protoss can't catch up.
So the only option is to go 2 stargate play but its a lot less interesting, and almost cheese as you can die to a roach ling bust or solid defensive play.
The upgrade would have been great if it wasn't an upgrade but given to the phoenix from the get go. Once you get Fleet beacon and the upgrade, you may as well have just gone 2 stargate phoenix. Being able to achieve air-dominance with 1 stargate is also the answer to prism play, which everyone thinks is the answer to everything.
Unfortunately this isn't possible until you can achieve air-dominance with 1 stargate, without air-dominance you are playing russian roulette and against good players it ceases to become a solid strategy but a cheesy one that players will learn to adapt to. The whole point of 1 stargate play, is to have enough multitask and micro that you can keep building up your phoenix count slowly while maintaining air-dominance and allowing you to do drop play.
Where am I getting to with this? I dunno, but at this stage the upgrade is useless and needs to be default for the phoenix or at least cybercore/twilight tech and not one that requires a cheese tech pattern.
I feel like this sums up a lot of issues with Protoss at the moment anyway. Most games it feels like Protoss has to surprise you with tech and hit a strong timing. Somehow PvZ/ZvP manages to be hard for both sides depending on the openings. It's not a long drawn out battle in either case but usually a decisive push that determines the game. If Zerg goes muta/ling, Protoss has a much harder time in the matchup but if Zerg uses a ground based roach/hydra with corrupters for colossus, the game is infinitely harder to play as the Zerg. Forcefields might be the sole factor for the matchup being out of control and in all honesty it's the reason why mutas are so good. They aren't limited by terrain. The fact that you need two stargates to play against this style means that most openings are going to feel like cheese rather than a solid strategy. I'm not sure if you could add on stargates as a response to seeing a spire going up and crank out phoenix but it seems rather unlikely that anyone who gets stargates would choose to not open with them.
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This upgrade is pretty bunk.Pro players were using high templars before, still will, same thing with infestors. I don't think anyone will ever use this upgrade besides plat-, because even if it raises the range to something ridiculous, people still have to micro, and they will still complain that they have to micro, just like they did before, and blizzard will respond.(Damn that was a lot of commas)
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On February 22 2012 10:58 mrafaeldie12 wrote:
This upgrade is pretty bunk.Pro players were using high templars before, still will, same thing with infestors. I don't think anyone will ever use this upgrade besides plat-, because even if it raises the range to something ridiculous, people still have to micro, and they will still complain that they have to micro, just like they did before, and blizzard will respond.(Damn that was a lot of commas)
Sorry to make a BW reference, but nobody complains about having to do constant Corsair micro the entire game (slowly build them up while teching, scouting, denying overlords, stopping muta backstabs, stopping shuttle snipes) and its one of the coolest things about BW and makes PvZ really fun.
Honestly this upgrade if done well will stop the single big blob battle into gg syndrome that we are experiencing with PvZ at the moment. It will open doors to drop/harass play (phoenix/storm-drops), interesting tech play (carrier-pheonix // phoenix-templar), aggressive play (early phoenix/zealot/archon 3rd denial). The single reason stopping all this is the inablility for Toss to achieve air-dominance without a significant investment and losing any thing that isn't a deathball to Muta Ling.
When you have 20 mutas on the field, you can have overlords all over the map, and prevent Toss from doing any squad based play, drop play, greedy expansions, completely forcing them into boring turtle into colossus/stalker/storm timing attacks.
Of course this doesn't make Muta/Ling unviable either, it just stops all the stupidity in the matchup, because now Toss has a solid strategy that relies on micro to be effective, which obviously Zerg can also exploit.
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EPT
