In WhichI Stop QQ'ing and Study SC2

IVFearless

United States165 Posts

February 21 2012 15:15 GMT

I think I have finally convinced myself to stop QQ'ing about not knowing how to improve at SC2. For those that don't read my blog, I'm not really interested in becoming the best SC2 player in the world. Instead, it is my ambition to become the best SC2 caster in the world. It's important to add here that I have no ambition to make a living as a SC2 Caster and do it almost purely for the enjoyment of it. Why seek to be the best then? Why not? Excellence in all things!

So, this brings me to last night when I sat at my computer, staring at the ladder screen, thinking to myself, "how is this helping me be a better caster?" After playing about 15 games yesterday I was no closer to actually understanding the game. Which is a problem if I am to be the best.

See, there is a problem with laddering to improve. It is possible, but painful to actually get better at the game by playing a lot. See, getting better by laddering requires your mechanics to be good enough that they are not the reason you lose. In fact, I am willing to stake money on the fact that the only reason people lose games in Gold and below is that their mechanics are worse then their opponents. As I have terrible mechanics I'm left with a serious problem. In order to improve, I have to devote a large amount of time to improving those mechanics. Time which I do not have.

After spending a while actually thinking about the problem and possible solutions I decided on a very different course of action. I loaded up a replay and noted a number of things; Player, Race, Opening, Map, Gas 1 timing, Gas 2 timing and if they won. After watching five games and noting each of these things for each side I started to notice a pattern! Success! As a result, I have decided to stop being an idiot and actually apply myself to study in a way that will allow me to learn.

Instead of spending my time for the next week laddering I am going to try this new method. I will be going through every replay from the HomeStory Cup and writing down these things. My question for you:

What other information should I be writing down when I go through these replays?

In other news, I'm super pumped to be interviewing EGMachine tomorrow! Check it out here.

aebriol

Norway2066 Posts

February 21 2012 15:38 GMT

On February 22 2012 00:15 IVFearless wrote:
What other information should I be writing down when I go through these replays?

Note this for every game:
Opening:
Forge, Nexus
Nexus, Forge
1 gate expand
3 gate expand
4 gate
5 gate nexus cancel

Into build:
10 gate, chrono 3 zealots, forge, nexus, cannon, cybercore, gas
3 gate 2 gas expand, 2 gate (5 total). 3rd 4th gas, forge, +1 attack, Twilight, +2 attack, Blink
Forge, Nexus, 2 gas, +1 attack, 3 gate, 3rd 4th gas, twilight, +2 attack (8:30 start), Blink, Gateway, Robo (All done: 10:00)
Forge, Nexus, 2 gas, +1 attack, 4 gates 4 gas done 8:30, 3 more gates done 9:30.
Forge, Nexus, 2 gas, +1 attack, 6 more gates (done 7:45), 3rd 4th gas.
Forge, Nexus, 2 gas, +1 attack, robo, 3 gate (4 total), 3rd gas, 4th gas, robotics support
Forge, Nexus, 2 gas, +1 attack, robo, 3rd gas 4th gas (6:20), 7 gate - 8 total (done: 9:30)
Forge, Nexus, 2 gas, +1 attack, twilight, 3rd, 4th gas, 3 gate, 3 gate - 7 gate blink (10:00 blink done).
Forge, Nexus, 2 gas, Stargate, 3rd gas (done 7:00), +1 attack, 4th gas, 2 gate, twilight, blink, +2 attack, 4 gate (7 total), Robo (observer)
Forge, Nexus, 2 gateway, Chrono gateway 3 zealot pressure, 3 gas, 4 gateway, robo, twilight
Forge, Nexus, 3 gas, +1 attack, robo, 3 gateway, 4th gas, 3 more gate (robo 7 gate +1 attack)
Forge, Nexus, 3 gas, stargate (6:00), 5 gate, +1 attack, expand (11:00), twilight, blink, robo (?)
Forge, Nexus, 3 gas, stargate (6:00), 5 gate, +1 attack, expand (11:00), twilight, blink, robo (?)
Forge, Nexus, 3 gas, Stargate, 4 gas, 6 gate, +1 ground attack (done 10:00)
Nexus, Forge, 2 gas, +1 attack, 5 gate, 3rd 4th gas, Twilight, DT
Nexus, Forge, 4 gas (started: 6:30), 2 Stargate (both started at 7:00), +1 melee

With attack force:
4:00 3 zealots, 2 at zerg base (trying to force cancel)
6:20, 2 Zealot, 6 sentry. 9:00 12 sentry, 8 zealot
6:00 2 zealot, 8:00 6 zealot, 2 sentry
6:00, zealot scout. 6:30 Stalker scout.
6:00, zealot scout. 6:30 Stalker scout.
8:30 4 zealot warp in at 3rd, warp prism in main (sentry zealot).
6:00, zealot scout. 6:30 Stalker, 8:00 warp prism, 3 zealot stalker
9:30 7 sentries, 3 stalkers
6:00, zealot scout. 7:30 Void Ray.
6:00 3 zealot scout pressure (zerg base)
6:00, zealot scout. 6:30 Stalker scout.
7:00 2 zealot, 1 stalker. 9:00 1 Void, 3 phoenix
7:00 2 zealot, 1 stalker. 9:00 1 Void, 3 phoenix
9:30 2 void ray, 3 zealot, 6 sentry, 6 stalker
6:00 Zealot, Stalker scout, 8:30 8 zealot stalker to third
9:00 2 void ray, 9:15 3 void ray, phoenix

With the followup attack force:
8:45 warpgate done, void ray out
10:00 Only gateway units, +2 blink done, transition robo colo 3rd?
10:00 10 zealots, 1 stalker, 12 sentries. Reinforce stalkers - all in
8:00 7 gate +1 all in, sentry zealot, stalker reinforcements
11:00 Thermal lance done. 12:00 3 colossus gateway warp prism
10:30 3 Immortal, 10 sentries, 15 zealots, 2 stalkers, reinforce gatewayContinous stalker reinforcements
11:00 Void ray, sentries, mass blink stalkers, observer
11:00 12 sentries, 2 zealots, 2 immortals -> expand take third
10:20 Sentries, stalker, zealot, 2 immortal, warp prism all in
11:00 1 void ray, 5 phoenix, 3 zealot, 6 sentry (next 5 stalker)
12:00 12 sentries, mass blink stalker all in.
10:40 8 zealot, 2 void rays, 12 stalkers, 6 sentries (+?)
10:00 DT done, 5 DT's
2 stargate all in, 3 void, phoenix, few zealots, 1 stalker. Counter: queens

... for example.

For all races, in all matchups, for all builds that are used in the GSL or by the very best players - like Stephano, Idra, Huk, MMA, White-Ra, etc.

In addition, it's important to keep the production tab open and note when workers are stopped being made - especially for protoss. You can tell which timing attacks the protoss is likely going for usually by nr of gas (and when they are taken), combined with what upgrades they are getting and when they leave their base and when they stop making workers.

(the above is an example from my ZvP notes on protoss timings vs a zerg that scouts and confirms forge expand and as a result take a quick third which the protoss scouts).

TuElite

Canada2123 Posts

February 21 2012 15:47 GMT

Looks to me like you're just trying to find an easy way out. I can't help but laugh every time I hear someone saying that their mechanics are holding them back. Below Grand-Master/Pro level EVERYONE HAS HORRIBLE mechanics. EVERYONE. Mechanics are hard as hell to develop and it takes a ton of practice to get it down. However there is a difference between having good mechanics that you can rely on in every situations and just executing well.

You don't need the 4 to 5 thousand required games in order to have good mechanics to execute a build close to perfection. You just need 100 to 200 games of refinement of that build. Hence why you don't really need mechanics before a very very high level of play that very few people ever reach.

Recently I made an alternate secondary account and had to go through placement matches thus facing gold-platinum-diamonds and the people I faced were definitely not being held back by "mechanics". But rather unrefined builds and poor decision making.

Anyways best of luck in whatever method you choose.
When nothing the openings, make sure not to only note the first 8 minutes or whatever, an opening can go up to 13-15 minutes sometimes before there's an actual transition out of it. A lot of people make the mistake that it's just the first 5 or 6 buildings...

And about the gas timings, fake gasing is becoming pretty standard for Terrans in TvP make sure to keep that in mind.

Zoler

Sweden6339 Posts

February 21 2012 15:47 GMT

lol this sounds way more annoying and hard than getting pro at the actual game

Hulavuta

United States1252 Posts

February 21 2012 16:17 GMT

Um no...laddering is a great way to practice if you are lower leagued. The only way to "practice your mechanics" is to do them repeatedly over and over again. Quick matches allow you to do that. Really, playing any match will help you practice your mechanics. You just have to play a lot.

Also, you said:

See, getting better by laddering requires your mechanics to be good enough that they are not the reason you lose.

That is completely incorrect, unless you are saying that getting a promotion means that you're better, which it doesn't. When you're low leagued, just grinding out a ton of ladder games is the best way to improve your mechanics. (As long as ARE playing to improve your mechanics)

You're saying to get better by laddering, you have to have good mechanics? I say by laddering, you are getting better because it is IMPROVING your mechanics.

Assuming you know what you are doing, (by watching replays, VODs, etc) ladder is a great way to practice if you are low-leagued, because the only way to improve your mechanics is by practicing. Sure, plenty of people have written guides on good macro and good mechanics and all that, and that's great. But knowing what to do, and being able to do it are two different things.

IVFearless

United States165 Posts

February 21 2012 16:19 GMT

@aebriol, did you just type that out? Holy cow man. Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

On February 22 2012 00:47 TuElite wrote:
Looks to me like you're just trying to find an easy way out. I can't help but laugh every time I hear someone saying that their mechanics are holding them back. Below Grand-Master/Pro level EVERYONE HAS HORRIBLE mechanics. EVERYONE. Mechanics are hard as hell to develop and it takes a ton of practice to get it down. However there is a difference between having good mechanics that you can rely on in every situations and just executing well.

You don't need the 4 to 5 thousand required games in order to have good mechanics to execute a build close to perfection. You just need 100 to 200 games of refinement of that build. Hence why you don't really need mechanics before a very very high level of play that very few people ever reach.

You're correct, but I suspect you didn't read the whole post. If playing the game well (read: being in Masters+) was my goal, then execution of build orders would be my first goal. Since that is not my goal, it makes little sense to focus on improving my execution of builds (another way of saying "my mechanics") instead of working on deepening my understanding of the game. Muscle memory helps me very little when I am casting.

On February 22 2012 00:47 TuElite wrote:
Anyways best of luck in whatever method you choose.
When nothing the openings, make sure not to only note the first 8 minutes or whatever, an opening can go up to 13-15 minutes sometimes before there's an actual transition out of it. A lot of people make the mistake that it's just the first 5 or 6 buildings...

And about the gas timings, fake gasing is becoming pretty standard for Terrans in TvP make sure to keep that in mind.

Thanks

I'll make sure to remember that.

@Zoler, I actually think it is more interesting. But then, I enjoy casting/ theory more then playing

RedJustice

United States1004 Posts

February 21 2012 16:39 GMT

Lol I don't think everyone who posted actually read what you wrote.

You should keep playing sc2, to keep that personal 'feel' for the game, but overall, yes, I think your time will be better spent on pro replays. I would encourage to watch every single one you can get your hands on, and really study them. It can be just has hard to maintain that level of intensity while watching replays though, so make sure you don't slack off! Good luck with your casting.

aebriol

Norway2066 Posts

February 21 2012 17:02 GMT

On February 22 2012 01:19 IVFearless wrote:
@aebriol, did you just type that out? Holy cow man. Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

Oh no, I just copy pasted some stuff from my notes on ZvP - specifically, going 3 hatch vs forge expand and protoss response to it and what I as a zerg need to look for.

Thing is, that's the sort of thing someone who really knows the game can state ... what the different initial timings mean, what gas timings mean, what it means when someone scouts at specific timings and see the # of gases, and what information that player just got from the scouting, etc.

Just knowing the difference between going 1 gate, adding 3, and then adding 3 or 4 more ... or going 6 or 7 gates all at once, matters, because the first attack involves cutting probes a lot sooner - and if you see the protoss cutting probes that early, off just 1 or 2 gates, you know that he will be going all in off 2 base with a gateway timing - for example.

Production tab is important for casters, but you have to really know by heart what it means because you can't try to analyze in game - you don't have time for it.

IVFearless

United States165 Posts

February 21 2012 17:53 GMT

Hmmm, aebriol would you be interested in Skyping with me some time (probably next week) after I have a bit more data to help me think through it?

aebriol

Norway2066 Posts

February 21 2012 21:47 GMT

#10

On February 22 2012 02:53 IVFearless wrote:
Hmmm, aebriol would you be interested in Skyping with me some time (probably next week) after I have a bit more data to help me think through it?

Sure.

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