• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:02
CET 15:02
KST 23:02
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
Evil Geniuses - shutting down Liquibets sc2 season 30 Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR?
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers [G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles Mutation # 548 Shining Bright
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Rollback Netcode in Brood War How SKT1 S-Tiers Felt To Be Swept By Flash Top Players of October 2026 (EBPD Rankings) Sagi.gg Launcher Released
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues 2v2v2v2 Tournament Stage 1: Community Poll [IPSL] IPSL Winter 26-27 Ro24 is HERE!
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Deus Ex 3!? Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Armies of Exigo - YesYes?
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10432 users

Tipping the Scales

Blogs > Duckvillelol
Post a Reply
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1259 Posts
February 11 2012 03:44 GMT
#1
It's always a fun time when a new patch / upcoming changes / situation report comes out from Blizzard. Theory crafters spin their wheels and play their new builds and ideas through their head then never actually play the game, folks who think that 2 base mass cannon into voidrays make outrageous claims, and forums such as TeamLiquid and Reddit are abuzz with claims of "IMBA!", "OMG!", "What about me!" and other various comments.

[image loading]
Yes, Fungal does snare Archons

I like to sit back and read through the changes myself, listen to the community, and read what people think. Is this change really that bad? Does this change secretly have a butterfly-effect that changes the way something else works? My favourite memory (in the still growing times of SC2) is when Archons were changed to be massive. For the first hour or so of the change - the main theme of posts from Protoss players mainly revolved around the fact that they could be useful in PvP now - given that you could waltz over a forcefield and continue a battle. It wasn't immediate, but shortly after some people realised that it also meant that Archons could now not be slowed down by Concussive shell - a huge change for that matchup. Some folks who were on the cusp of "genius" and "complete moron" pointed out that Phoenix could no longer lift Archons up - and some people made claims that fungal wouldn't snare Archons anymore.

Many of these claims were brilliant, some were average, and (as noted at the end) some were insane. But it shows how minor tweaks to a game can adjust the way we think, provide new ways for people to theorise outside the box, and best of all - make changes to the way we play this fantastic game which cause us to move ever closer to the holy grail of any RTS game - perfect racial balance.

In this post we're going to have a look at the latest 1.4.3 "Situation Report" post from the quizzical David Kim from Blizzard, having a look at what is changed, and what "butterfly effect" things could come in down the line - and I'm going to include comments from my awesome followers on Twitter who were kind enough to share their thoughts. But first, I need a coffee, and you may need a link to the Blizzard blog post.


We have the technology, we can rebuild him.

It's interesting to me that 2 of the planned changes (Phoenix and MULEs) are something that seem to have been pushed to the side and forgotten about previously. Like having a small stabbing in your shoe - you know it's a tiny splinter or something and it's annoying - but you just don't have time or energy to do something about it. Well it seems that Blizzard have taken off their shoes, are removing their socks and are attempting to remove the splinter - and it's about time. The Sniper Round change is probably most controversial, and the APM change... well... do you really care or are you just trying to impress girls?

Overall I think the changes listed are solid, however the main topic of discussion across TL and Reddit have been regarding the change to Sniper Round.

Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic

Snipe has almost become a living entity in SC2 - mainly in TvZ - where it has been utilised by some of the high level pro's to decimate late-game Zerg armies. 6 months ago we started to see the high level Zerg players come from the shadows and start to hold back until that magic Broodlord/Infestor army was maxed out with nice upgrades. Then, amazing Terrans such as MMA, MVP and even Select came along and took the matchup by storm (no pun intended) - using Snipe to shoot down the floating stingrays of the sky, and then either sniping or EMP'ing Infestors on the ground, rendering them useless. This was causing quite a lot of distress for Zerg users - how do you beat a unit that can mow down my units from afar within seconds, which can also cloak if required? The inclusion of Overseers in late game Zerg came about which certainly helped - but realisitically it is an extremely difficult task to take down the Ghosts before "the damage is done" given the large range of Snipe, the high damage and the ease of shift-clicking a bunch of ghosts to roll across a battlefield sniping down units left, right and center. Fungal can be used in some cases, but isn't a realistic option, and of course neither is Neural Parasite (does that ever get used anymore?).

[image loading]
Shoot down the Stingray! For Steve Irwin!

The damage change to snipe has generally gone down with the community to the tones of "too much of a change" and "this kills late game TvZ, now I need to stop Hive tech or it's GG". Justified claims? I can't really comment with certainty - my Terran skills are somewhere around a gold level - but from my "caster knowledge codex" this could be true. It will be a little more troublesome for Terrans to deal with late game Zerg - with snipe only dealing 25 damage to Broodlords now, this changes things quite a lot. I think if memory serves me right, it now takes 21 snipes to kill an Ultralisk, up from 11/12. I think we may see a little shift back to higher Viking numbers in TvZ, and perhaps more "care" about Ultralisk switches too - now with no snipe, if a Zerg times a switch correctly and can control those lumbering beasts correctly, they could become a force to be reckoned with.

In TvP the change isn't a huge one, though it is worth keeping in mind an incredibly important fact - Motherships can now be shot down with only 16 snipes instead of 18. This is just absolutely massive. *Queue trollface*

MULEs now harvest the same amount of minerals on both high yield minerals and normal minerals.

Definitely required in my opinion. Gold bases are seemingly becoming a thing of the past in all of the recent tournament maps - they just provided way too much of a bonus to Terrans who expanded to them swiftly. Sure there were some interesting and daring strategies used by some people - building a fast CC beside destructible rocks so you can MULE a gold to pull ahead in minerals - but gimmicky things like this are dangerous, and I'm sure they provided a headache for map makers if they actually wanted to put them in.

To be honest I am still - after 1.5 years - undecided about my feelings towards "Gold minerals". It seems like an interesting mechanic to think of initially, but when you really break it down it seems to provide more issues than "good macro mechanics and strategic questioning" that I think it was intended for. Hopefully with this adjustment things will change and it will feature more in pro-level competitions, and we might be able to truly see what Blizzard were after when they introduced this mechanic.

Phoenix now has a range upgrade at the Fleet Beacon

As a Protoss I certainly do welcome this change, Mutalisks can be difficult to deal with at the best of times, and downright nasty in the hands of a pro. I'm just not sure this is exactly "feasible". I might have to play around on the PTR with this one - it just seems like the Fleet Bacon was an odd place to put it. Perhaps we may see some Carrier-based builds from time to time? I can't be certain, but I doubt it - Carriers are still too risky without a solid plan in mind.

[image loading]
Mmm, Fleet Bacon. Wait, what?

I'm just concerned for a common situation: Protoss player goes for a FFE with a stargate follow up. He builds 3 Phoenix to play around with, tries to scout and pick up some Queen kills, standard thing. At the X minute mark he scouts out the Spire, meaning that Mutas are a chance very soon. He then has to put down the Fleet Bacon (300/200) and then after that is done (bearing in mind the 60 second build time for a Fleet Bacon, and the 100 second build time for a Spire) the "Extended Phoenix Lance" upgrade is required, perhaps 100/100 to purchase. This then needs time to upgrade, meaning at least 60 seconds (at a guess). 11 Mutas will be out at that point, and coming towards you. What if they aren't? What if during your panic to counter the Mutas, the Zerg leaves the Spire as a simple reactionary structure to deal with Colossus?

I'm not sure, but perhaps this upgrade would be better suited to the Twilight Council? This means that a Protoss needs to make a choice about their Twilight upgrade, do you want Blink to do some harassment and deal with roach forces? Or do you want charge for some prism harassment? Or will you get the Phoenix upgrade to deal with mutas? Obviously this "choice" only rings true at the start of the game, but I feel the dynamic would be a bit nicer than plonking it on the last tech-building which is a huge investment.

The voice of the people!

I asked some of the fine folks on Twitter what they thought of the changes, here are some of those with some comments from me

@Rollinthunder - Mules not gathering more minerals on gold is bullshit., Breaks game lore. Need to remove gold bases to make it fair.

I didn't even think of "Game Lore" when it came to this change - of course Blizzard doesn't either, but I think the change does need to be tried before full removal of the gold minerals - we don't want another change like Carriers now!

@HanzoSC2 - Mule's nerf is OK but I've got the feeling they push it a bit too far concerning the ghost snipe. Let's see how it goes...

I agree, I think it's a touch too much, removing some of the Ghost versitility is possibly a bad move - units should always have multiple roles if possible, that seems to be a problem with some SC2 units, they fill "one role" and that's it.

@ZergSamurai - I'm very pleased with the Phoenix upgrade I really did think mutas were Imba vs toss Happy with snipe and mule nerfs too

Indeed, Mutas are very damaging if you don't have the right counters, hoping that the change isn't too far "down the tree" to be reliable to defend against them though.

@deadly_platypus - ghosts are now officially useless with nerfed emp and now snipe :/

It's interesting to look at how the EMP nerf has effected this patch - we had one patch to help TvP, and now another to help TvZ - when are we going to hit a balance with the Ghost unit?

@eRonin - Ghosts not being able to counter mutalisks, zealots and banelings is kinda iffy

I'm not exactly sure about countering Muta's, but I know in a clutch situation they were nice to snipe down the Mutas and also Banelings. This is gone now! :O

@fernando_takai - good patch, but the nerf on snipe is too big. Maybe 25 + against non massive.


This is probably the best suggestion that came about on the forums after the patch changes were listed. With a bonus against Massive units that means that Ultras and Broods can still be brought down - however I feel as though hitting for 50 on Massive units is still quite a lot, maybe a little lower would do the trick?

@Bradf912 - the phoenix upgrade... yeah after i drop the 300/200 just to get the fleet beacon then more to get 2 more range. not worth it

This is exactly what I was thinking, it seems like the investment and time taken to try and counter Mutas - and what benefit does it serve outside usage against Mutas?

@mfbenson1 - the mule nerf is interesting. Everyone always said nerf mules, but nobody said nerf them this way.

What was the other suggestions? I think it was to reduce their move speed or something weird like that? I'm not sure, I think either way this will be the best solution.

Sands through the hourglass

One this for sure is that time will tell how this plays out. Will we see a new trend in PvZ with more Phoenix and possibly Carrier action? Will we find out that MULEs actually weren't too bad with gold and things change back, or will gold's start to fully disappear as they have started to recently? Will Ghosts lose all versatility and usefulness, and retire to Florida?

DUCKVILLE

PS: Wondering what you guys would think if the Sniper Round range was changed from 9 to 8?

**
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
Mr. Black
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States470 Posts
February 11 2012 04:19 GMT
#2
Is the mothership a biological unit?
Make more anything.
Duckvillelol
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia1259 Posts
February 11 2012 04:41 GMT
#3
On February 11 2012 13:19 Mr. Black wrote:
Is the mothership a biological unit?


It's massive/psionic/armored/mech
Former SC2 commentator. youtube.com/duckvillelol
Jesushooves
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada553 Posts
February 11 2012 05:57 GMT
#4
I am most worried about phoenix colossus now. That shit is so strong TT.
Lose its good, after will be win.
Selendis
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia509 Posts
February 11 2012 10:03 GMT
#5
As a protoss player, I feel that this upcoming patch is somewhat redundant. I can't comment on the higher echelons of play but I feel that the game is pretty well balanced at the moment; there is no 'gamebreaking invinvible strategy' out that I can adopt nor have trouble defeating.
Probes are sooo OP
FastEddieV
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States614 Posts
February 11 2012 11:40 GMT
#6
On February 11 2012 12:44 Duckvillelol wrote:
Show nested quote +
@fernando_takai - good patch, but the nerf on snipe is too big. Maybe 25 + against non massive.


This is probably the best suggestion that came about on the forums after the patch changes were listed. With a bonus against Massive units that means that Ultras and Broods can still be brought down - however I feel as though hitting for 50 on Massive units is still quite a lot, maybe a little lower would do the trick?


I think he means non-massive, so ghosts still devastate the medium-level and small bio units like muta / banes but it isn't very useful vs broods and ultras. Which is a suggestion I like.
platinum? more like leaf
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
23:00
Patch Clash S1: Monthly #3
TKL 108
Liquipedia
WardiTV Summer Champion…
21:00
Not-Summer Champs Playoffs
WardiTV800
Rex113
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Rex 113
TKL 108
SHIN 51
StarCraft: Brood War
Jaedong 1680
Mini 812
Horang2 808
Soma 457
Light 444
BeSt 347
Snow 303
Stork 272
firebathero 233
Rush 222
[ Show more ]
ZerO 204
Hyuk 195
Soulkey 148
hero 138
Leta 106
Sea.KH 88
Zeus 81
Killer 80
Mind 72
Barracks 57
Sharp 49
Hyun 42
ToSsGirL 37
Creator 31
Bale 31
sorry 31
Mong 27
Trap 26
Movie 23
soO 23
Hm[arnc] 21
JYJ 19
Sacsri 16
Terrorterran 16
Rock 14
yabsab 12
Noble 11
Icarus 6
zelot 5
Dota 2
Dendi832
qojqva284
Fuzer 130
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1129
markeloff92
Heroes of the Storm
crisheroes366
Lowko339
Other Games
B2W.Neo946
hiko611
Beastyqt549
Pyrionflax297
dupreeh277
DeMusliM239
Livibee102
Mew2King56
ArmadaUGS43
ZerO(Twitch)15
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL392
[ Show 10 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• WagamamaTV286
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
10h 58m
Kung Fu Cup
20h 58m
Replay Cast
1d 8h
The PondCast
1d 19h
KCM Race Survival
1d 19h
OSC
1d 23h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3 days
Reynor vs Solar
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs MaxPax
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
IPSL
4 days
WorsT vs nOmaD
Dewalt vs andersOn
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
IPSL
5 days
Azhi_Dahaki vs ggnore13
Double vs WIZARD
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-02
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

1xBet Invitational
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.