|
On January 18 2012 02:40 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 02:00 Elegy wrote:I lol @ this elitist thought: Sadly, most people are just to simple to understand He's mixing his Sun Tzu and Machiavelli! 500 years ago (not going to talk about today) most people did not understand politics or warfare and a good leader needed to understand that he should not depend on "trust" (or being 100% honorable) with the local population in order to secure power. A lot of people think that he was just being elitist or immoral, but The Prince is a predominantly scientific account of how rulers gain and lose power and is cited with historical examples. Back to Sun Tzu-- I know they're just games, but the Total War series have always had fairly historically-accurate battles in them. If you're not sure about how this stuff actually applies to the classical, medieval, samurai, etc battlefields then just try it out for yourself in one of the games!
TBH most of what is said in the art of war applies to everything but the battles in total war. I've played all of the games from TW series thoroughly, and without a human opponent both in the battle and on the map it's one sided. The game doesn't have to be thorough simulation of realistic campaigning and battles.
SC2 has amazing application for the teachings of the book. Many will regard them as simplistic and obvious but past mechanics it's what separates amazing from mediocre players.
|
On January 18 2012 10:51 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 04:53 Elegy wrote:On January 18 2012 04:14 AeroEffect wrote:On January 18 2012 02:00 Elegy wrote:On January 17 2012 15:37 AeroEffect wrote:On January 17 2012 15:28 aike wrote:On January 17 2012 15:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
A wise man. Interestingly enough, his teachings could actually serve as inspiration for improving your sc2 as well. Not just in SC2, his teachings can be applied to most everything you do in life. Not saying that it isnt possible, but alot of people wont have enough common sense to apply any of this to their daily life. Sadly, most people are just to simple to understand. Is this a joke? The Art of War is not some epic, mindblowing text that has all the answers you seek in it. It's a book about admittedly basic military precepts and applied strategical thinking. Anyone who has studied military history in general will not find anything particularly revealing in it, and anyone with half a brain can easily pick out the most pertinent aspects of the text and apply it to daily ventures (business deals, etc etc). I lol @ this elitist thought: Sadly, most people are just to simple to understand And where did these military concepts comewr in from? A Chinese military treatise did not invent those military concepts. Did it help codify established doctrine and introduce the art of war in more eloquent terms. Sure. There is a weird tendency for internet warriors and usually very young people to think the Art of War somehow invented the entirety of military doctrine, when even a cursory study of military campaigns predating Sun Tsu exemplify many of the stratagems discussed by him. An important text to be sure, but Art of War fanatics act as if military strategy didn't exist before it. Nobody thinks Sun Tzu invented strategy, calm down you nerd.
And where did these military concepts come from?
And where did these military concepts come from?
And where did these military concepts come from?
At least one guy does!
|
I dont really get why people all over the world piss on about Art of War....I dont see anything particularly inspiring in those quotes...just common sense stuff.
|
On January 18 2012 16:38 SarR wrote:
I dont really get why people all over the world piss on about Art of War....I dont see anything particularly inspiring in those quotes...just common sense stuff.
well... cause it is written like 2000 years ago?
I'm sure rocket science will be quite common sense in Year 4012.... That doesn't mean the rocket scientists now are not smart people and not inspiring.
Personally, I think the book is famous because this kind of strategic thinking really isn't "common sense" until the last 2~3 centuries. Most people still think that war is decided by Gods, honor or some other supernatural stuff, AFTER 1000 years the Art of War was written. (especially in the west, as their generals probably dun read the art of war, XD)
|
On January 18 2012 17:15 DarkwindHK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 16:38 SarR wrote:
I dont really get why people all over the world piss on about Art of War....I dont see anything particularly inspiring in those quotes...just common sense stuff. well... cause it is written like 2000 years ago? I'm sure rocket science will be quite common sense in Year 4012.... That doesn't mean the rocket scientists now are not smart people and not inspiring. Personally, I think the book is famous because this kind of strategic thinking really isn't "common sense" until the last 2~3 centuries. Most people still think that war is decided by Gods, honor or some other supernatural stuff, AFTER 1000 years the Art of War was written. (especially in the west, as their generals probably dun read the art of war, XD)
Yes...
Western generals, people commanding the most modern armies in the history of mankind, believe that gods, honor and supernatural things decide the outcome of wars.
Meanwhile, Chinese generals that earn their rank because their dad is party leader are well versed in the forms of modern warfare due to having read a 2000+ year old book which still advocates the use of formations.
The Art of War is more a philosophical text then it is a relevant piece of military tactics.
|
On January 18 2012 10:51 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 04:53 Elegy wrote:On January 18 2012 04:14 AeroEffect wrote:On January 18 2012 02:00 Elegy wrote:On January 17 2012 15:37 AeroEffect wrote:On January 17 2012 15:28 aike wrote:On January 17 2012 15:25 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
A wise man. Interestingly enough, his teachings could actually serve as inspiration for improving your sc2 as well. Not just in SC2, his teachings can be applied to most everything you do in life. Not saying that it isnt possible, but alot of people wont have enough common sense to apply any of this to their daily life. Sadly, most people are just to simple to understand. Is this a joke? The Art of War is not some epic, mindblowing text that has all the answers you seek in it. It's a book about admittedly basic military precepts and applied strategical thinking. Anyone who has studied military history in general will not find anything particularly revealing in it, and anyone with half a brain can easily pick out the most pertinent aspects of the text and apply it to daily ventures (business deals, etc etc). I lol @ this elitist thought: Sadly, most people are just to simple to understand And where did these military concepts comewr in from? A Chinese military treatise did not invent those military concepts. Did it help codify established doctrine and introduce the art of war in more eloquent terms. Sure. There is a weird tendency for internet warriors and usually very young people to think the Art of War somehow invented the entirety of military doctrine, when even a cursory study of military campaigns predating Sun Tsu exemplify many of the stratagems discussed by him. An important text to be sure, but Art of War fanatics act as if military strategy didn't exist before it. Nobody thinks Sun Tzu invented strategy, calm down you nerd. The book is very important not because it is revolutionary, but because it is a good survey of the Asian style of warfare which is in fact extremely different from the Western (or perhaps I should say American) style of warfare, which makes it necessary reading for American military men. America is all about big guns, big armies, crush the enemy in a standoff of might against might. Not all the time, but this is generally the thinking and you see it reflected in America's devotion to having superior military technology and a large budget. The Asian style of warfare is what you might call sneaky... Surprise attacks, ambushes, deceit and misdirection are all tactics employed by the Asian generals as a necessity. It is ironic considering the west thinking of Asian warfare thinks of the honourable samurai... but it's a very different kind of honour. It goes beyond armies and seeps into the public mind and diplomacy. If often think that StarCraft players from the west are some of the few people who truly appreciate this kind of warfare (even if there is nothing nice about war, there is an incredible battle of minds in games like Brood War and Go). Even Chess is really a game of honour and power in a way that doesn't think of these tactics.
Modern warefare is pretty much all about who has the bigger gun 
If the book wasn't marketed as "Art of War" I doubt anyone would give a crap about it. The hate on the book is analogous to PC people hating on Apple's marketing.
1. Decieve enemy
2. Try to trap enemy
3. Be conservative
That is pretty much 80% of the Art of War, use your money/time on other things e.g read history.
|
wah this shit was written before jesus while the white ppl were still in stone ages? How the fuck did this shit happen? how did the white people catch up with China in all specification of progression? Could it be that the later generation built up on the discovery of the previous generation so we don't have to rediscover something someone already knew about? Like how Newton said something about he is merely standing on the shoulder of giants when he was ask about how much of a genius he is.
And for the ppl who think this shits are all common sense, and need not to be said, then why do I only see the koreans applying this on their sc2 games? while only maybe naniwa is the only none korean being deceptive enough to be even considered worthy of SunTsu's teaching?
|
On January 19 2012 01:20 rei wrote:
wah this shit was written before jesus while the white ppl were still in stone ages? How the fuck did this shit happen? how did the white people catch up with China in all specification of progression? Could it be that the later generation built up on the discovery of the previous generation so we don't have to rediscover something someone already knew about? Like how Newton said something about he is merely standing on the shoulder of giants when he was ask about how much of a genius he is.
And for the ppl who think this shits are all common sense, and need not to be said, then why do I only see the koreans applying this on their sc2 games? while only maybe naniwa is the only none korean being deceptive enough to be even considered worthy of SunTsu's teaching?
Maybe not stone age, but that was before the great Roman generals for sure.
The fact that it seems to be common sense is actually what makes it so efficient. Sometimes, some facts are so simple that we don't even think of applying them. Having all of these simple but compiled assertions make it a very condensed war strategy textbook.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
