Hi guys, I have been streaming a lot lately, and I am also going to start creating more video content. This thread I will keep updated with new videos I post that are SC2 related.
In the videos I make I will be discussing/analyzing SC2 theory of different match-ups/strategies and the current metagame at the time of making the video. I will be posting videos with my thoughts at the time. If the video is not covering theory/strategy/metagame content, you can be sure it will be SC2 related and I will try to bring up discussion topics that are relevant to the community at that point in time.
For the first video i've made here, I am discussing the current viability/non-viability of mech play in the tvp match-up. I thought this would be a great idea for a video because the mech tvp viability discussion is a relevant one that was just recently brought up on sotg as well.
So, I hope people can enjoy these, constructive feedback/criticism is very appreciated
Most recent Video(s): Updated December 20, 2012:
avilo HOTS Metagame Update #8: Terran has been removed from the game.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the video #1:
Update January 18, 2012: Here is the video #2:
Update June 18, 2012: Video #3:
Feel free to tweet at me if you liked/didn't like the video + give any other feedback!
masters toss here. totally agree with you, mech is kind of a joke tvp and while i agree with artosis that players could probably use it better in, for instance tvt, it does seem pretty bad tvp.
I feel that, at the highest level of play, PvT is pretty balanced. But that doesn't mean it's a good matchup.
Bio vs Protoss doesn't feel BAD, it can lead to some good games, but Blizzard lost out on a lot of potential. In BW, Terran was pretty much forced into mech vs Protoss in macro games, and in SC2 Blizzard had the chance to make the matchup even more interesting by giving Terran the option of bio and mech in all matchups.
They succeeded pretty well in TvT and TvZ, but in TvP it feels really bad (although there is still a chance that some guy will explore it and do what Flash did to TvP in BW). And that is what leads me to believe that the issue is NOT with Terran - it is with the Protoss design.
You end up with the weird situation where every Protoss unit, and the design of Protoss in general, can be used easily to "counter" mech. This means that if the Terran units are buffed, Protoss is likely instead to be in the reverse situation - mech would just be unstoppable. So Protoss is the race which needs fixed, not Terran.
This is exaggerated more by the other matchups. PvZ occasionally has exciting moments, but the new wave of PvZ (JYP/HerO/Sage) hasn't really taken hold, and none of them have had great success with it in GSL, and the old MC style of PvZ is successful but not epic or particularly tense, not in the same way as TvT or TvZ. PvP was shit for a long time, and I reckon it's only interesting now because of the novelty value: Protoss was the weakest race for a significant period of time, and only now do we frequently see PvP at the highest level of play.
In summary: Protoss needs a thorough rework, not just the roughshod going over the race is likely to recieve for HotS (a dedicated harass unit which ONLY does that, a unit designed to counter mass Mutalisks and a unit to... make enemy units for more resources), and abilities like Warp-in, Charge, Hardened Shields need to be more considered rather than just thrown in because they could perform a function and look cool.
No hate on you but it is REALLY REALLY HARD to trust anything that you said. You have a huge background of QQ-ing in ladder games as well as on forums. It is not that your statements are inaccurate but they are often exaggerated from the original problem.
TvP overall is not even your best match up. I remember watching you bo7 ladder vs minigun and you lose at least 5 or 6 of them. Your image is shattered in my head just as much as combatex or deezer. How about actually win games display your technique instead of complaining how how Terran cant win. And dont even tell me game imbalance... if MMA could win blizzard cup, MVP could win GSL, you have no right to QQ over a ladder game.
My main point is, recently i have seen you trying to take stuff seriously and try to get your name out there and i hope you start from the right place. Once you fix that, i will be fully supportive on what you do.
On December 25 2011 05:46 NB wrote: No hate on you but it is REALLY REALLY HARD to trust anything that you said. You have a huge background of QQ-ing in ladder games as well as on forums. It is not that your statements are inaccurate but they are often exaggerated from the original problem.
TvP overall is not even your best match up. I remember watching you bo7 ladder vs minigun and you lose at least 5 or 6 of them. Your image is shattered in my head just as much as combatex or deezer. How about actually win games display your technique instead of complaining how how Terran cant win. And dont even tell me game imbalance... if MMA could win blizzard cup, MVP could win GSL, you have no right to QQ over a ladder game.
My main point is, recently i have seen you trying to take stuff seriously and try to get your name out there and i hope you start from the right place. Once you fix that, i will be fully supportive on what you do.
Love and peace .
I appreciate the feedback...but you're giving me feedback on forum posts I made in beta when I was giving feedback as a beta tester of starcraft 2. Nothing you said even remotely has anything to do with the video I posted, let alone the content, let alone overarching balance.
I do appreciate any feedback on the videos I am currently making/posting, rather than feedback on random forum posts I made during a beta test of a game. Thanks in advance !
In craftcup yesterday, first round i beat liquid'haypro...i think you're a bit behind on the times in reference to me "winning games" anyways, this is besides the point. Please don't de-rail the thread with vague references to posts i made 1+ year ago.
I agree with most things that you said. I also did something like this after hearing the SotG debate where I went mech for a week and it went horribly LOL. But the one thing I don't agree with is Blizzard nerfing mech in TvP on purpose. The reason most mech units were nerfed was because of their imbalance in other MU's. For instance, I remember tanks being nerfed because they did way too much damage to ling bane. Also, the ghost nerf was not to nerf mech, but bio.
For some reason I laughed all the way. I'm at 18th minute and I have been laughing for 18 minutes. Ladies and gentleman, avilo is back and as whiny as he can get.
On December 25 2011 07:07 Djagulingu wrote: For some reason I laughed all the way. I'm at 18th minute and I have been laughing for 18 minutes. Ladies and gentleman, avilo is back and as whiny as he can get.
Even it it's "whine" its so true its not even funny :b
On December 25 2011 07:07 Djagulingu wrote: For some reason I laughed all the way. I'm at 18th minute and I have been laughing for 18 minutes. Ladies and gentleman, avilo is back and as whiny as he can get.
Even it it's "whine" its so true its not even funny :b
The funny thing is not the situation of mech. The funny thing is the way avilo expresses it.
On December 25 2011 05:32 SeaSwift wrote: In summary: Protoss needs a thorough rework, not just the roughshod going over the race is likely to recieve for HotS (a dedicated harass unit which ONLY does that, a unit designed to counter mass Mutalisks and a unit to... make enemy units for more resources
Protoss has warp prisms, phoenixes and DTs for harass and they have HTs, Phoenixes and Blink stalkers and Archons to counter mutalisks. But there is a fundamental design flaw with all those units: You need to micro them so that they can do their job. New units like these can be implemented though, if you remove phoenix though.
Make enemy units cost more resources? Ok, let's summarize: If something like this gets implemented along with a harass unit and a unit that counters mass mutas without phoenix getting removed, my brother can actually beat Nestea playing protoss. PvZ would be that broken. A unit that makes enemy units cost more = ling/baneling are no longer viable.
On December 25 2011 05:32 SeaSwift wrote: In summary: Protoss needs a thorough rework, not just the roughshod going over the race is likely to recieve for HotS (a dedicated harass unit which ONLY does that, a unit designed to counter mass Mutalisks and a unit to... make enemy units for more resources
Protoss has warp prisms, phoenixes and DTs for harass and they have HTs, Phoenixes and Blink stalkers and Archons to counter mutalisks. But there is a fundamental design flaw with all those units: You need to micro them so that they can do their job. New units like these can be implemented though, if you remove phoenix though.
Make enemy units cost more resources? Ok, let's summarize: If something like this gets implemented along with a harass unit and a unit that counters mass mutas without phoenix getting removed, my brother can actually beat Nestea playing protoss. PvZ would be that broken. A unit that makes enemy units cost more = ling/baneling are no longer viable.
...What are you talking about? Sorry, I'm completely lost by your post. I was stating what Blizzard is planning to put in the game (Oracle, Tempest & Replicator respectively), not what I think they should. And you completely missed what the Replicator does.
I don't like the "blizzard hates mech" stuff... Regarding some of your main complaints: a) the hellions with +1 weapons as well as blue flame still destroy mineral lines. Doesn't really seem like a good argument. b) the only thing that I can find a goliath has over the viking is it started with +1 armor, it was cheaper and it shared ground upgrades with mech. What do you think would make the viking more attractive? - maybe mixing banshees would be an alternative?
I agree that the thor energy change was unnecessary. Also Armory gas cost is an issue (the only other +/+ upgrade structure that requires gas is the spire - and that's a "unit tech structure" - although the armory does allow thor production and thor rushes might become an issue).
Talking about HotS changes. Forget the warhound and make the thor faster now (this seems to be one of the main issues vs mutas - after the cost effectiveness of magic boxing). Giving mech any additional mobility would help.
I do agree that just about every protoss unit in some way counters mech
Good blog avilo. I feel like there's a ton of denialism in the SC2 community about how ridiculously bad mech is, and it's good to see a top NA player talk about it. You're going to be shouted down by entitled P players though who think that making 40 gateways and warping in 100 supply of chargelots is a "skill".
On December 25 2011 09:07 Fission wrote: Good blog avilo. I feel like there's a ton of denialism in the SC2 community about how ridiculously bad mech is, and it's good to see a top NA player talk about it. You're going to be shouted down by entitled P players though who think that making 40 gateways and warping in 100 supply of chargelots is a "skill".
Actually the denialism is coming from the mid-range players, ~diamond to mid-masters. I've talked to a quite a few progamers, both P and T (dde, NrGMonk) and they share the sentiment that late game protoss isn't just favored against mech, it's just flat out favored.
While there's no consensus yet, many pros and more every day begin to share the sentiment that mech vs P is downright not viable, which is a problem when you're cut off from using 1/2 of your arsenal because there's just no way to make it cost effective against enemy units. And it's not really an exaggeration.
Watch the streams of...vileIllusion, Jinro, Rainbow, watch them try to mech against P and see how it turns out. I haven't seen ForGG or Bomber mech in tvp yet, and probably for good reason - they care about winning more than about experimentation with suboptimal unit compositions (tank/thor).
Thanks for the videoBlog avilo, I hope there's more to come. Someone needs to address this issue and even if this gets many negative responses, it's still good PR for the problem.
Also, your awesome hat is awesome ^^ Merry christmas !
EPT
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