• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:21
CEST 12:21
KST 19:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch0Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
ASL20 General Discussion ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D Soulkey on ASL S20 BW General Discussion NaDa's Body
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Borderlands 3 General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
UK Politics Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2858 users

Teabow Mania makes me want to kill... - Page 4

Blogs > lvent
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
December 20 2011 17:50 GMT
#61
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.

So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...
lvent
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States140 Posts
December 20 2011 17:52 GMT
#62
On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.

So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...

Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's?
Gann1
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1575 Posts
December 20 2011 18:17 GMT
#63
On December 21 2011 02:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I just don't understand the Tebow hate, other than when it comes from anti-religious types.

I mean, this is a guy that will never be caught with drugs, will never beat someone up, will never be out getting multiple DUIs, will never rape someone or torture dogs... but we have to hate him because he happens to be Christian.

Then people say he's "too open about it"...

I see these guys every single sunday tackling someone when their team is behind by 40+ points, and the retard that just tackled that guy has some retard celebration planned and he does it without thinking "hey, I'm getting TROUNCED right now"... and everyone loves it. Tim Tebow decides to bow on the sidelines and be open about his religion and suddenly it's "how arrogant, ugh what a POS."

Chargers fan here and I can admit that the guy is a miracle. He's a straight up miracle.


I don't have anything against Tim Tebow the person. I just think it's ridiculous that all this media coverage goes to a mediocre QB who leads comebacks against bad/mediocre teams. Look at Arizona... John Skelton has 5 comeback wins this year, coming off the bench just like Tebow. He's also a far better QB. Yet he hardly gets any props from the media compared to their darling Tebow.

Basically, I don't hate Tebow, I'm annoyed with the sports media and all the people who bought into the Tebow hype.
I drop suckas like Plinko
holy_war
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States3590 Posts
December 20 2011 18:38 GMT
#64
Dont hate Tebow, how would we have Tebowing without Tebow?
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32075 Posts
December 20 2011 18:52 GMT
#65
On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.

So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...

Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's?


VINCE 'JUST WINS' BABY! WOOOOO HOOK 'EM!

gauging a QB off of wins is the most absurd thing ever. There's like four pages of people saying how they dislike him for the hype surronding his skills and then you come in saying it's because everyone hates religion..???
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-20 19:04:37
December 20 2011 18:58 GMT
#66
On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.

So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...

Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's?

Tim Tebow is doing better than they did, statistically speaking.

edit: Two super-bowl winning coaches have expressed their belief that he will succeed (Gruden, Dungy)
lvent
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States140 Posts
December 20 2011 19:07 GMT
#67
On December 21 2011 03:58 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote:
On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.

So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...

Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's?

Tim Tebow is doing better than they did, statistically speaking.


Dilfer was 7-1 for the Ravens 10-1 overall counting playoffs and the superbowl in 2000. You kind of see where I am going with this one? I think sometimes teams can win despite an inept qb. A good defense and a good running games does wonders
MasterBlasterCaster
Profile Joined October 2011
United States568 Posts
December 20 2011 19:13 GMT
#68
But did Trent go on to have seventeen more winning seasons with that same team? Did he even stay with that team for another year? (I forget)

I mean, he didn't stay a winning QB, so he got traded around and eventually quit. It seems to me that a team with a bad or mediocre QB will win sometimes, but will not consistently be a contender for the SB. Now, obviously Denver has yet to become a consistent contender for anything... but that's why I say to wait and see.

I hope to God that they lose out, because I really don't want to miss the playoffs again; but I also hope Tebow does well because he's a great guy and an interesting story. I've watched him play though, rather closely, for a while, and I think he's got what it takes. I can totally see why other people don't, but I do have to think that they're wrong.
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-20 19:36:57
December 20 2011 19:19 GMT
#69
On December 21 2011 03:52 Hawk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote:
On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.

So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...

Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's?


VINCE 'JUST WINS' BABY! WOOOOO HOOK 'EM!

gauging a QB off of wins is the most absurd thing ever. There's like four pages of people saying how they dislike him for the hype surronding his skills and then you come in saying it's because everyone hates religion..???


How is it the most absurd thing ever? At the end of the day aren't you playing to win football games? Shouldn't you be playing players that give you the best chance to win?

The Broncos were awful and were looking at a 5 win season at best before Tebow came in, now they're in contention for the AFC West. That alone trumps nearly any argument anyone can make about the kid right now.

Something that can't be said about Dilfer/Banks is those teams were going to be good with or without them playing. The Broncos clearly changed quite a bit as soon as Tebow stepped in...
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32075 Posts
December 20 2011 20:19 GMT
#70
Because determining whether or not a QB is good by the record doesn't come close to telling the whole story about his play.

Would you know from that record that in almost all of those games, Tebow was terrible for all but the last 5 minutes of the game? That his defense was averaging some 14pts/g over that win streak vs 25 or something before, which is the only reason Tebow had the opportunity to come back in most of those games despite not putting points on the board?

You can apply the same thing to most 'Just Wins' QBs to prove that theory that a record really means shit as far as the actual skill level of a QB. It's like apm in bw.

Trent Dilfer went 10-1 or whatever as mentioned earlier in the page. Can you tell from that that he had one of the generation's greatest defenses behind him for that? That the run game essentially carried that offense?

Ditto with the Niners. Alex Smith is 11-3 as a starter this season. Is he a good qb now??
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
LuckyFool
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States9015 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-20 21:54:22
December 20 2011 21:48 GMT
#71
I agree with you in general that record alone doesn't tell the full story. But I don't think it's an absurd thing to use to help evaluate a QB though.

I think Tebow is sort of an expectation to the rule for me right now. The Broncos were looking awful before Tebow came in then they started winning. It can be really hard to tell if the key was the team around the QB that stepped up, or the QB doing something that sparked the team. Or just dumb luck. There's ALOT that goes on in the locker room, at practice and team facilities that we will never see or know about. All we see is on the field on Sundays which isn't always a true tell of the situation. Nether are stats.

It's like opening a replay in bwchart before actually watching the game. You can't open a replay and see 300apm and hotkeys all over the place and assume the player is going to be amazing. (Me) Or see 120 apm and think they're awful. (White-Ra)

Dilfer/Alex Smith simply piggybacked off good teams. Are the Broncos actually a good team this year? Good enough to carry an awful QB? The difference for me with Tebow vs an Alex Smith or Dilfer is unlike Smith/Dilfer Tebow didn't "inherit" a particularly strong team. (In my opinion)

by the way I do actually think Tebow is being ridiculously overhyped, but I think he is getting too much hate as well. His team is winning, bottom line.
lvent
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States140 Posts
December 20 2011 22:38 GMT
#72
On December 21 2011 04:13 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
But did Trent go on to have seventeen more winning seasons with that same team? Did he even stay with that team for another year? (I forget)

I mean, he didn't stay a winning QB, so he got traded around and eventually quit. It seems to me that a team with a bad or mediocre QB will win sometimes, but will not consistently be a contender for the SB. Now, obviously Denver has yet to become a consistent contender for anything... but that's why I say to wait and see.

I hope to God that they lose out, because I really don't want to miss the playoffs again; but I also hope Tebow does well because he's a great guy and an interesting story. I've watched him play though, rather closely, for a while, and I think he's got what it takes. I can totally see why other people don't, but I do have to think that they're wrong.



Trent was either traded or released the following year. The real Cleveland Browns(Ravens) signed Elvis Grbac(spelling?). Dilfer went on the spent the next 4 or so years as a back up to Matt Hassleback(99% sure) in Seattle. I remember at some point before his career ended he played for the browns and got destroyed one year on that abysmal team.

I just feel that people are hyping just him up as a "bright spot" for the next generation of young qb's. Someone else posted earlier about the qb from Arizona with 5 comeback wins. He gets zero coverage here(PA). If Tebow busts his ass in the offseason and comes into next year and shows improvement in the passing game then fine talk about it. But jock riding a < 50% passer is mind boggling.
lvent
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States140 Posts
December 20 2011 22:56 GMT
#73
On December 21 2011 04:19 LuckyFool wrote:


How is it the most absurd thing ever? At the end of the day aren't you playing to win football games? Shouldn't you be playing players that give you the best chance to win?

The Broncos were awful and were looking at a 5 win season at best before Tebow came in, now they're in contention for the AFC West. That alone trumps nearly any argument anyone can make about the kid right now.

Something that can't be said about Dilfer/Banks is those teams were going to be good with or without them playing. The Broncos clearly changed quite a bit as soon as Tebow stepped in...



Here was the schedule pre switch.

Sep 12 Oakland Lost 20-23 --> They looked very respectable the first 7 weeks of the year.
Sep 18 Cincinnati Won 24-22 --> Cincy is in the running for a wildcard, I didnt expect them to be legit
Sep 25 @Tennessee Lost 14-17 --> I think Hasslbeck sucks too, but he did beat Balt.
Oct 2 @Green Bay Lost 23-49 --> Rodgers was/is sick this year
Oct 9 San Diego Lost 24-29 --> they made the switch in this game..

Post swap
Oct 23 @Miami Won 18-15 OT --> 0-5 dolphin team that quit on their coach
Oct 30 Detroit Lost 10-45 --> this was when Detroit still havent lost their minds
Nov 6 @Oakland Won 38-24 --> dumb ass carson plamer and no Mcfadden
Nov 13 @Kansas City Won 17-10 --> Coaching turmoil
Nov 17 N.Y. Jets Won 17-13 --> Im still shocked that happened. good win
Nov 27 @San Diego Won 16-13 OT --> chargers kicker choked
Dec 4 @Minnesota Won 35-32 --> I *think* this is the game he actually looked like a qb i.e. good cpl%
Dec 11 Chicago Won 13-10 OT --> no cutler no forte 99 field goal kick etc..
Dec 18 New England Lost 23-41 --> defense destroyed option plays.

I dont know man Orton looked pretty good against Green Bay I think he could have stolen some of the same games mentioned above.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32075 Posts
December 20 2011 23:00 GMT
#74
On December 21 2011 06:48 LuckyFool wrote:
I agree with you in general that record alone doesn't tell the full story. But I don't think it's an absurd thing to use to help evaluate a QB though.

I think Tebow is sort of an expectation to the rule for me right now. The Broncos were looking awful before Tebow came in then they started winning. It can be really hard to tell if the key was the team around the QB that stepped up, or the QB doing something that sparked the team. Or just dumb luck. There's ALOT that goes on in the locker room, at practice and team facilities that we will never see or know about. All we see is on the field on Sundays which isn't always a true tell of the situation. Nether are stats.

It's like opening a replay in bwchart before actually watching the game. You can't open a replay and see 300apm and hotkeys all over the place and assume the player is going to be amazing. (Me) Or see 120 apm and think they're awful. (White-Ra)

Dilfer/Alex Smith simply piggybacked off good teams. Are the Broncos actually a good team this year? Good enough to carry an awful QB? The difference for me with Tebow vs an Alex Smith or Dilfer is unlike Smith/Dilfer Tebow didn't "inherit" a particularly strong team. (In my opinion)

by the way I do actually think Tebow is being ridiculously overhyped, but I think he is getting too much hate as well. His team is winning, bottom line.


The D is definitely good enough to carry that offense vs the weak opponents they've won against since Tebow took over.

26-31 is the combined records of the opponents they beat with Tebow at the time they played them (I don't care to research the current records now, but I saw this stat recently and it was something like a ~.4x win% of the oppoents during the streak.) The point is, they are not playing quality teams in these wins. Chicago is the only team that approaches good territory out of those wins, and they were sans their only two weapons in Cutler and Forte, so that offense was about as impotent as a gay man in a straight brothel. The Jets have a shitty qb and no run game this year, and are slightly above average at best

They've given up 22pts/g on defense in those wins, and if you take out the wins in which they gave up 30 something, that drops down well below 20. More importantly, the strength is the pass rush, which generates a lot of turnovers and short fields, and masks up deficiencies elsewhere (hello, NYG)

The only thing you can really give Tebow credit for is his running abilities (which are admittedly awesome and why I want him to play some kind of H-Back; like a Randel El with more running skills) and how it helps open up lanes for the other runners. But that is only a half truth because McGahee already topped 100 three times in five games before Tebow took over. It's not as if he turned shit to gold back there with his jesus aura. And it's not as if this they've dominated TOP in those games either. They still sit in the bottom 1/3 for that category too.

The recipe for success is very simple: The D keeps the team in the game because it allows few points, and Tebow is at his best at late game because teams for some terrible reason sit in some kind of odd prevent and try to cover him with ends or shitty backers rather than really spying him, which allows him to fuck eveyrthing up because he can scramble and move outside of the pocket to find playerso n a broken play.
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Prev 1 2 3 4 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
10:00
Season 2: Playoffs Day 5
Maru vs ReynorLIVE!
Cure vs TriGGeR
Tasteless478
Crank 426
IndyStarCraft 83
CranKy Ducklings66
Rex48
3DClanTV 41
IntoTheiNu 20
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Tasteless 478
Crank 426
IndyStarCraft 83
Rex 48
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 7026
Bisu 1013
Horang2 351
Hyuk 300
Stork 296
actioN 293
Pusan 189
Hyun 142
ZerO 138
Mini 134
[ Show more ]
Snow 111
Light 108
Soma 97
EffOrt 91
Dewaltoss 75
ToSsGirL 67
sorry 59
Last 55
HiyA 53
Liquid`Ret 42
Sharp 33
Free 25
Mind 21
Rush 19
scan(afreeca) 16
SilentControl 14
ggaemo 13
Sexy 9
Soulkey 8
Terrorterran 3
Dota 2
singsing2161
XcaliburYe197
League of Legends
JimRising 343
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1606
shoxiejesuss594
x6flipin258
allub215
Other Games
XaKoH 147
NeuroSwarm60
Trikslyr14
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 594
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1481
• Stunt614
Other Games
• WagamamaTV149
Upcoming Events
Map Test Tournament
39m
The PondCast
2h 39m
RSL Revival
23h 39m
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
1d 16h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 21h
RSL Revival
1d 23h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Online Event
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.