EPTSo we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...
Teabow Mania makes me want to kill... - Page 4
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though... | ||
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lvent
United States140 Posts
On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good. So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though... Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's? | ||
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Gann1
United States1575 Posts
On December 21 2011 02:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: I just don't understand the Tebow hate, other than when it comes from anti-religious types. I mean, this is a guy that will never be caught with drugs, will never beat someone up, will never be out getting multiple DUIs, will never rape someone or torture dogs... but we have to hate him because he happens to be Christian. Then people say he's "too open about it"... I see these guys every single sunday tackling someone when their team is behind by 40+ points, and the retard that just tackled that guy has some retard celebration planned and he does it without thinking "hey, I'm getting TROUNCED right now"... and everyone loves it. Tim Tebow decides to bow on the sidelines and be open about his religion and suddenly it's "how arrogant, ugh what a POS." Chargers fan here and I can admit that the guy is a miracle. He's a straight up miracle. I don't have anything against Tim Tebow the person. I just think it's ridiculous that all this media coverage goes to a mediocre QB who leads comebacks against bad/mediocre teams. Look at Arizona... John Skelton has 5 comeback wins this year, coming off the bench just like Tebow. He's also a far better QB. Yet he hardly gets any props from the media compared to their darling Tebow. Basically, I don't hate Tebow, I'm annoyed with the sports media and all the people who bought into the Tebow hype. | ||
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holy_war
United States3590 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote: Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's? VINCE 'JUST WINS' BABY! WOOOOO HOOK 'EM! gauging a QB off of wins is the most absurd thing ever. There's like four pages of people saying how they dislike him for the hype surronding his skills and then you come in saying it's because everyone hates religion..??? | ||
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote: Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's? Tim Tebow is doing better than they did, statistically speaking. edit: Two super-bowl winning coaches have expressed their belief that he will succeed (Gruden, Dungy) | ||
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lvent
United States140 Posts
On December 21 2011 03:58 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: Tim Tebow is doing better than they did, statistically speaking. Dilfer was 7-1 for the Ravens 10-1 overall counting playoffs and the superbowl in 2000. You kind of see where I am going with this one? I think sometimes teams can win despite an inept qb. A good defense and a good running games does wonders  | ||
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
I mean, he didn't stay a winning QB, so he got traded around and eventually quit. It seems to me that a team with a bad or mediocre QB will win sometimes, but will not consistently be a contender for the SB. Now, obviously Denver has yet to become a consistent contender for anything... but that's why I say to wait and see. I hope to God that they lose out, because I really don't want to miss the playoffs again; but I also hope Tebow does well because he's a great guy and an interesting story. I've watched him play though, rather closely, for a while, and I think he's got what it takes. I can totally see why other people don't, but I do have to think that they're wrong. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
On December 21 2011 03:52 Hawk wrote: VINCE 'JUST WINS' BABY! WOOOOO HOOK 'EM! gauging a QB off of wins is the most absurd thing ever. There's like four pages of people saying how they dislike him for the hype surronding his skills and then you come in saying it's because everyone hates religion..??? How is it the most absurd thing ever? At the end of the day aren't you playing to win football games? Shouldn't you be playing players that give you the best chance to win? The Broncos were awful and were looking at a 5 win season at best before Tebow came in, now they're in contention for the AFC West. That alone trumps nearly any argument anyone can make about the kid right now. Something that can't be said about Dilfer/Banks is those teams were going to be good with or without them playing. The Broncos clearly changed quite a bit as soon as Tebow stepped in... | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
Would you know from that record that in almost all of those games, Tebow was terrible for all but the last 5 minutes of the game? That his defense was averaging some 14pts/g over that win streak vs 25 or something before, which is the only reason Tebow had the opportunity to come back in most of those games despite not putting points on the board? You can apply the same thing to most 'Just Wins' QBs to prove that theory that a record really means shit as far as the actual skill level of a QB. It's like apm in bw. Trent Dilfer went 10-1 or whatever as mentioned earlier in the page. Can you tell from that that he had one of the generation's greatest defenses behind him for that? That the run game essentially carried that offense? Ditto with the Niners. Alex Smith is 11-3 as a starter this season. Is he a good qb now?? | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
I think Tebow is sort of an expectation to the rule for me right now. The Broncos were looking awful before Tebow came in then they started winning. It can be really hard to tell if the key was the team around the QB that stepped up, or the QB doing something that sparked the team. Or just dumb luck. There's ALOT that goes on in the locker room, at practice and team facilities that we will never see or know about. All we see is on the field on Sundays which isn't always a true tell of the situation. Nether are stats. It's like opening a replay in bwchart before actually watching the game. You can't open a replay and see 300apm and hotkeys all over the place and assume the player is going to be amazing. (Me) Or see 120 apm and think they're awful. (White-Ra) Dilfer/Alex Smith simply piggybacked off good teams. Are the Broncos actually a good team this year? Good enough to carry an awful QB? The difference for me with Tebow vs an Alex Smith or Dilfer is unlike Smith/Dilfer Tebow didn't "inherit" a particularly strong team. (In my opinion) by the way I do actually think Tebow is being ridiculously overhyped, but I think he is getting too much hate as well. His team is winning, bottom line. | ||
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lvent
United States140 Posts
On December 21 2011 04:13 MasterBlasterCaster wrote: But did Trent go on to have seventeen more winning seasons with that same team? Did he even stay with that team for another year? (I forget) I mean, he didn't stay a winning QB, so he got traded around and eventually quit. It seems to me that a team with a bad or mediocre QB will win sometimes, but will not consistently be a contender for the SB. Now, obviously Denver has yet to become a consistent contender for anything... but that's why I say to wait and see. I hope to God that they lose out, because I really don't want to miss the playoffs again; but I also hope Tebow does well because he's a great guy and an interesting story. I've watched him play though, rather closely, for a while, and I think he's got what it takes. I can totally see why other people don't, but I do have to think that they're wrong. Trent was either traded or released the following year. The real Cleveland Browns(Ravens) signed Elvis Grbac(spelling?). Dilfer went on the spent the next 4 or so years as a back up to Matt Hassleback(99% sure) in Seattle. I remember at some point before his career ended he played for the browns and got destroyed one year on that abysmal team. I just feel that people are hyping just him up as a "bright spot" for the next generation of young qb's. Someone else posted earlier about the qb from Arizona with 5 comeback wins. He gets zero coverage here(PA). If Tebow busts his ass in the offseason and comes into next year and shows improvement in the passing game then fine talk about it. But jock riding a < 50% passer is mind boggling. | ||
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lvent
United States140 Posts
On December 21 2011 04:19 LuckyFool wrote: How is it the most absurd thing ever? At the end of the day aren't you playing to win football games? Shouldn't you be playing players that give you the best chance to win? The Broncos were awful and were looking at a 5 win season at best before Tebow came in, now they're in contention for the AFC West. That alone trumps nearly any argument anyone can make about the kid right now. Something that can't be said about Dilfer/Banks is those teams were going to be good with or without them playing. The Broncos clearly changed quite a bit as soon as Tebow stepped in... Here was the schedule pre switch. Sep 12 Oakland Lost 20-23 --> They looked very respectable the first 7 weeks of the year. Sep 18 Cincinnati Won 24-22 --> Cincy is in the running for a wildcard, I didnt expect them to be legit Sep 25 @Tennessee Lost 14-17 --> I think Hasslbeck sucks too, but he did beat Balt. Oct 2 @Green Bay Lost 23-49 --> Rodgers was/is sick this year Oct 9 San Diego Lost 24-29 --> they made the switch in this game.. Post swap Oct 23 @Miami Won 18-15 OT --> 0-5 dolphin team that quit on their coach Oct 30 Detroit Lost 10-45 --> this was when Detroit still havent lost their minds Nov 6 @Oakland Won 38-24 --> dumb ass carson plamer and no Mcfadden Nov 13 @Kansas City Won 17-10 --> Coaching turmoil Nov 17 N.Y. Jets Won 17-13 --> Im still shocked that happened. good win Nov 27 @San Diego Won 16-13 OT --> chargers kicker choked Dec 4 @Minnesota Won 35-32 --> I *think* this is the game he actually looked like a qb i.e. good cpl% Dec 11 Chicago Won 13-10 OT --> no cutler no forte 99 field goal kick etc.. Dec 18 New England Lost 23-41 --> defense destroyed option plays. I dont know man Orton looked pretty good against Green Bay I think he could have stolen some of the same games mentioned above. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On December 21 2011 06:48 LuckyFool wrote: I agree with you in general that record alone doesn't tell the full story. But I don't think it's an absurd thing to use to help evaluate a QB though. I think Tebow is sort of an expectation to the rule for me right now. The Broncos were looking awful before Tebow came in then they started winning. It can be really hard to tell if the key was the team around the QB that stepped up, or the QB doing something that sparked the team. Or just dumb luck. There's ALOT that goes on in the locker room, at practice and team facilities that we will never see or know about. All we see is on the field on Sundays which isn't always a true tell of the situation. Nether are stats. It's like opening a replay in bwchart before actually watching the game. You can't open a replay and see 300apm and hotkeys all over the place and assume the player is going to be amazing. (Me) Or see 120 apm and think they're awful. (White-Ra) Dilfer/Alex Smith simply piggybacked off good teams. Are the Broncos actually a good team this year? Good enough to carry an awful QB? The difference for me with Tebow vs an Alex Smith or Dilfer is unlike Smith/Dilfer Tebow didn't "inherit" a particularly strong team. (In my opinion) by the way I do actually think Tebow is being ridiculously overhyped, but I think he is getting too much hate as well. His team is winning, bottom line. The D is definitely good enough to carry that offense vs the weak opponents they've won against since Tebow took over. 26-31 is the combined records of the opponents they beat with Tebow at the time they played them (I don't care to research the current records now, but I saw this stat recently and it was something like a ~.4x win% of the oppoents during the streak.) The point is, they are not playing quality teams in these wins. Chicago is the only team that approaches good territory out of those wins, and they were sans their only two weapons in Cutler and Forte, so that offense was about as impotent as a gay man in a straight brothel. The Jets have a shitty qb and no run game this year, and are slightly above average at best They've given up 22pts/g on defense in those wins, and if you take out the wins in which they gave up 30 something, that drops down well below 20. More importantly, the strength is the pass rush, which generates a lot of turnovers and short fields, and masks up deficiencies elsewhere (hello, NYG) The only thing you can really give Tebow credit for is his running abilities (which are admittedly awesome and why I want him to play some kind of H-Back; like a Randel El with more running skills) and how it helps open up lanes for the other runners. But that is only a half truth because McGahee already topped 100 three times in five games before Tebow took over. It's not as if he turned shit to gold back there with his jesus aura. And it's not as if this they've dominated TOP in those games either. They still sit in the bottom 1/3 for that category too. The recipe for success is very simple: The D keeps the team in the game because it allows few points, and Tebow is at his best at late game because teams for some terrible reason sit in some kind of odd prevent and try to cover him with ends or shitty backers rather than really spying him, which allows him to fuck eveyrthing up because he can scramble and move outside of the pocket to find playerso n a broken play. | ||
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