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As a diehard NFL football fan, the writers, broadcasters and TV stations are absolutely killing me any more with the nonsense that is Tim Teabow. It is like a 90/10 split on how "good" he is versus how truly awful of a qb he in actuality is.
Today, a writer from Sports Illustrated opened up his recap with this "gem".. "You can't blame this one on Tim Tebow. He wasn't the reason the red-hot Broncos finally fell to earth here in their eagerly anticipated and much ballyhooed showdown with Tom Brady and the New England Patriots.".
Now let's expand what actually happened in yesterday's game. Denver was very sloppy with the ball, I am not saying that they weren't. They had a rb cough up the ball, a punt get muffed and a huge fumble from Teabow that lead to the Patriots go ahead score and them not looking back. As a runner Teabow is alright, he has good "vision" for running lanes and it shows when he scrambles. He rushing totals were 12att 93yds 2td. That is a fantastic stat line if you are a running back...Now lets look at his passing stats...Since you know his job is to throw the ball... 22att 11cpl 194yards 0tds 0ints.....he completed 50% of his passes against the worst pass defense in the NFL(They made the colts 3rd string qb look like Marino). He also took 4 sacks for negative 53 yards... So if any other qb did this would he not be a person to blame????
He is completing a stellar 48.6% of his passes this year. If you would remove screens and quick hitch routes anything generally less than 5 yards he would be lucky to crack the 15%. Where as the best qb's would still be in the 50 percentile. He has 10 fumbles on the year and 27 sacks thus far. In reality he should have closer to 40 sacks but he is a beneficiary of the "direct snap for a loss" stat official.
The bottom line for me is he is not even close to being a good quarterback. If this was SC2 he would be placed in bronze. In college he benefited greatly from an Urban Meyer program(Remember he got Alex Smith drafted ahead of Aaron Rodgers) which annually had top recruiting classes and fast offenses that college teams could not defend.
Being raised in Pittsburgh I am a Steeler fan. I hate good players on other teams but can respect their ability(Brady comes to mind as public enemy #1). I just hate Teabow and the ballwashing he gets from the vast majority of news writers. He isnt good enough for the articles he receives. If they like the style so much the young qb they should be talking about is Cam Newton. He actually can throw the ball as well as run....
 
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Mark my words, the world will have forgotten Tebow in under 5 years, he is godawful and is only in the spotlight due to his ostentatious religious affiliation. Like you said, players like Cam Newton are the kind we ought to be paying attention to, his numbers have been awesome this year, and considering how bad Carolina is otherwise, the fact that Cam can do anything is miraculous. I'm with ya!
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I agree. I think that he's a terrible quarterback right now. However, I also think that he's improving a lot and he'll be about league average after a good off-season (not that league average this year is worth spit).
Nonetheless, I'll keep on rooting for him because in all of his interviews that I've seen, he seems to be a genuinely good person who's also trying his best. It's nice to see those people succeed.
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False. He'll grow into his skin and he will mature into a very good quaterback. No one said Michael Vick could throw the ball either, and look at him now - now he can boot it through the air or on the ground. He'll do fine.
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On December 20 2011 03:29 goldrush wrote:
Nonetheless, I'll keep on rooting for him because in all of his interviews that I've seen, he seems to be a genuinely good person who's also trying his best. It's nice to see those people succeed.
I have nothing against him as a person. He does seem to live life as a "good" person. There are alot of good people who don't get the proverbial "attaboy" for doing their jobs though. My disdain for him comes from the writers who take the easy way out and pimp him like he is a top tier qb.
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I agree with most of the stuff you wrote here. Tebow is an awful quarterback. Just awful. But he is a great athlete and he has the drive to win. Those intangibles are so important and I think he exemplifies that better then anyone (for the best example of someone who has 0 winning drive see LeBron James). Plus it seems like luck is on his side more then it's not so it's a fun story as well. Just like every novelty this too shall pass. Defenses will figure him out and contain him better. Just like Miami's wildcat that was winning games it wasn't supposed to defenses adjusted and now it confuses no one. I think Broncos will lose very quickly in the playoffs to either the Steelers or Ravens (depends on who gets the wildcard) and this story will be over and the media will find something else to over-exaggerate about
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On December 20 2011 03:35 Jitsu wrote:
False. He'll grow into his skin and he will mature into a very good quaterback. No one said Michael Vick could throw the ball either, and look at him now - now he can boot it through the air or on the ground. He'll do fine.
Vick even out of college was scouted with a "cannon for an arm". His accuracy was called into question which was a legitimate criticism/concern. The thing with Teabow is the writers are not dogging him about his passing numbers outside of maybe two reporters/writers. Vick for what its worth only has 1 3000yard passing season in his career in a pass happy NFL rule-wise.
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How is it Tebows fault that he gets attention from the media?
Also when examining the stats for tebow you cant really compare it to the rest of the league since the offens they run is completly diffrent then any other team.
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You're silly. the qb's job is to gain yards and points. it is a sad occurrence that having a good run defense contributes the most to having a good pass rush but the wildcat offence should have taught people that the running game is alive and well.
you're completely ignoring the game plan that they're going with and its genius. having a qb who can burst out at any point and go for a great run is a huge threat that cannot be simply rushed with the front 4 and they must sent an lb or a cb or put pressure and get the tackle for that. he can west coast offence a good drive with his legs alone and the ability for his team to have 4 guys out running routes for a catch and a rb who can be the option in case the coverage is good.
he isn't getting press for his religion don't be stupid. He gets all the press beacuse hes completely humble (and rightly so) about why hes winning games. The defense has been clutch EVERY SINGLE time its needed to for the wins they've gotten. Rogers was total shit for a couple years before he became the second coming of farve and was sacked relentlessly.
If you have to make a comparison to someone in the sc2 world it would be MKP every single day. Teabow has clear things to work on and if he does he's going to be one of the best qb's in the leauge. The city loves him and that means that the management will invest in a good team to surround him with. Big things are going to be coming out of Denver soon.
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On December 20 2011 03:35 Jitsu wrote:
False. He'll grow into his skin and he will mature into a very good quaterback. No one said Michael Vick could throw the ball either, and look at him now - now he can boot it through the air or on the ground. He'll do fine.
No it wasn't that Vick couldn't throw the ball it was the while he was in Atlanta he wouldn't use his progressions. Instead he'd look at the first read and if it wasn't there he'd take off running. Now he actually uses his progressions and only runs when he has to keep a play alive.
Tebow on the other hand can't throw for shit. His throwing motion is still too long and his accuracy is crap. The mechanics of his throwing motion can't be changed imo b/c they're so engrained into him that he won't be able to get rid of them. Tebow only has running as his option and that won't fly next year and doesn't fly against teams that can get a big enough lead on you where you need a QB who can start throwing the ball to be able to catch up.
I'm glad he got his ass whooped yesterday. Now I don't have to hear more about how God is great in his interviews. I mean even Kurt Warner told him to chill on the religious stuff.
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On December 20 2011 03:46 sermokala wrote:
You're silly. the qb's job is to gain yards and points. it is a sad occurrence that having a good run defense contributes the most to having a good pass rush but the wildcat offence should have taught people that the running game is alive and well.
you're completely ignoring the game plan that they're going with and its genius. having a qb who can burst out at any point and go for a great run is a huge threat that cannot be simply rushed with the front 4 and they must sent an lb or a cb or put pressure and get the tackle for that. he can west coast offence a good drive with his legs alone and the ability for his team to have 4 guys out running routes for a catch and a rb who can be the option in case the coverage is good.
he isn't getting press for his religion don't be stupid. He gets all the press beacuse hes completely humble (and rightly so) about why hes winning games. The defense has been clutch EVERY SINGLE time its needed to for the wins they've gotten. Rogers was total shit for a couple years before he became the second coming of farve and was sacked relentlessly.
If you have to make a comparison to someone in the sc2 world it would be MKP every single day. Teabow has clear things to work on and if he does he's going to be one of the best qb's in the leauge. The city loves him and that means that the management will invest in a good team to surround him with. Big things are going to be coming out of Denver soon.
Tebow will never be an amazing quaterback. He just doesn't have the mechanics. His release is too slow, his accuracy is poor and he doesn't look very comfortable in the pocket unless it's the final 2 minutes in the fourth quarter. Will he be average at some point in his career? Maybe. Runner quarterbacks don't last long in the league. Vick is a perfect example of a defense being able to shut him down once they get enough tape on a quarterback. Plus every time he has to scramble he puts his body at risk. There is a reason why coaches don't like their quarterbacks taking off whenever they feel like it. He is very athletic but to say that he's going to be the best quarterback in a league is overreaching to say the least
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I don't seem to get why you think that 90% of sports writers, broadcasters, stations, etc. think Tebow is good or "good". All of them know he lacks some basic and essential skill sets that quarterbacks must have. They don't think he's good, they are just so fascinated and amused by his story and find it impossible to ignore. If they give any praise to Tebow's characteristics, it's for his intangibles. Everyone is just riding the wave right now and spinning all kinds of stories because honestly, its fun to watch and gives people something to talk about.
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On December 20 2011 03:46 iamperfection wrote:
How is it Tebows fault that he gets attention from the media?
Also when examining the stats for tebow you cant really compare it to the rest of the league since the offens they run is completly diffrent then any other team.
Would you agree that an offense has to game plan around the skill of its QB?
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On December 20 2011 04:03 lvent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 03:46 iamperfection wrote:
How is it Tebows fault that he gets attention from the media?
Also when examining the stats for tebow you cant really compare it to the rest of the league since the offens they run is completly diffrent then any other team. Would you agree that an offense has to game plan around the skill of its QB?
A good coach tailors his gameplan around the players he has? Tebow has been much discussed from actual football analysts too, a lot of it boils down to the fact that the option offense may succeed in the NFL, but most coaches don't run an option offense because it gets the QB clobbered. Tebow has the ability to (at the moment) to take the pounding, and cynically the Broncos also clearly didn't give a shit and said fuck it, if he gets clobbered he gets clobbered.
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Brees needs more attention. :D But that might just be the saints fan in me.
While I agree tebow isn't as good as he's hyped up to be, I don't think that's a reason to dislike him. Its not his fault, it's the media's. ^^
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On December 20 2011 04:03 lvent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 03:46 iamperfection wrote:
How is it Tebows fault that he gets attention from the media?
Also when examining the stats for tebow you cant really compare it to the rest of the league since the offens they run is completly diffrent then any other team. Would you agree that an offense has to game plan around the skill of its QB?
You basically build your team around the qb.
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On December 20 2011 03:46 sermokala wrote:
You're silly. the qb's job is to gain yards and points. it is a sad occurrence that having a good run defense contributes the most to having a good pass rush but the wildcat offence should have taught people that the running game is alive and well.
you're completely ignoring the game plan that they're going with and its genius. having a qb who can burst out at any point and go for a great run is a huge threat that cannot be simply rushed with the front 4 and they must sent an lb or a cb or put pressure and get the tackle for that. he can west coast offence a good drive with his legs alone and the ability for his team to have 4 guys out running routes for a catch and a rb who can be the option in case the coverage is good.
he isn't getting press for his religion don't be stupid. He gets all the press beacuse hes completely humble (and rightly so) about why hes winning games. The defense has been clutch EVERY SINGLE time its needed to for the wins they've gotten. Rogers was total shit for a couple years before he became the second coming of farve and was sacked relentlessly.
If you have to make a comparison to someone in the sc2 world it would be MKP every single day. Teabow has clear things to work on and if he does he's going to be one of the best qb's in the leauge. The city loves him and that means that the management will invest in a good team to surround him with. Big things are going to be coming out of Denver soon.
You are correct it is the Qb's job to do both, however he has to be able to you know throw the ball no? Having a good run defense does not mean you have a good pass defense. Trust me on that. 01-04 What good teams did to my steelers was spread them out 5 wide and go wild....
I am saying that maybe because that might be the only game plan they can use? I think it was the KC game they ran the ball 55 times? bravo to them because it worked, but dont you think the OC is probably limited on his playbook selection with a QB that struggles to make timing throws?
As for a reason he is winning games I would also add in some timely luck in regards to opponents and their injuries. Example : if the bears had Cutler and forte do you really think they only put up 13 or was it 10?
You say Rodger was shit for a couple years before he was the "second coming". Rodgers first year as starter he threw for 4000yards. Infact since taking over for "the farve" in 2008 he has the following totals in his career including yesterdays game : 16,754yards,126td's, 38 int's. You can also add in 1100 rushing yards and 16tds.
http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_19574711 on of the few negative articles. Hometown reports keep it real for the most part.
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On December 20 2011 03:35 Jitsu wrote:
False. He'll grow into his skin and he will mature into a very good quaterback. No one said Michael Vick could throw the ball either, and look at him now - now he can boot it through the air or on the ground. He'll do fine.
He's improved but average at throwing accuracy. That's the Philly offense and Reid's play calling at work--both are tailored to his abilities. Speed for screens, and Djax is all over his deep balls, which is the one passing play Vick is pretty good at.
Vick's issue was more that he refused to go through his progresssions for years. His mechanics were never really too bad.
Tebow's are awful. The reason his passes are all over the place so frequently is because of his foot work and his delivery. 48% is real bad no matter what offense you are in.
On December 20 2011 03:46 sermokala wrote:
Rogers was total shit for a couple years before he became the second coming of farve and was sacked relentlessly.
lol??
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That's a joke article though. The crux of the argument was that the Broncos (namely, Tebow) turned the ball over too much, and the Patriots capitalized, and the Pats rarely lose when they win the turnover battle. Why does Tebow screwing up in one game, when his greatest strength has been ball security, suddenly make it so that he absolutely cannot be a franchise quarterback?
Make note, my jury's still out on him. I have no idea what to think. He's improving (slowly), and he moves the chains better than people give credit for. Will he ever be a Tom Brady type QB? Probably not. But can he be like a Steve McNair? Maybe (he'd have to get good at throwing). But come on, flailing against one of the best defensive masterminds in the league (many QBs falter in their first look at a Belichick defense) and having one of his worst turnover games, compounded by the defense being unable to reel in Brady, and suddenly they need to be making a QB switch? Give me a break.
Keeping it as real as the Redskins' beat writers that bash the Redskins every time they lose three months after pining for a complete rebuild with draft picks and shit. Good lord.
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On December 20 2011 03:46 sermokala wrote:
Rogers was total shit for a couple years before he became the second coming of farve and was sacked relentlessly.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/8439/aaron-rodgers
Since when was passing for over 4000 yards and throwing 30 tds to 7 ints total shit?
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Tebow is an interesting topic to discuss. He does complete 48 percent of his passes. He is currently 32nd in the league in passing yards this season. Tebow has 10 fumbles and lost 4 on the year. If you want to look at running the ball too, Tebow is up there with most anyone you want to compare him to. He won't necessarily get the yards, because he is a quarterback, but he still has 5.8 yards per run.
You said to compare him to Cam Newton, a passer and runner. Cam has 59.6% completions and 3722 yards. Tebow has 48.6% and 1484 yards. But, getting a lot of yards doesn't mean much to me. The important stat to me is that Cam Newton has 17 Touchdowns and 16 Interceptions, with 2 lost fumbles. Tebow has 11 Touchdowns, and only 2 Interceptions, with 4 lost fumbles. Taking care of the ball is the most important thing a team has to do after scoring. Another thing to look at is the weapons a quarterback has. Cam Newton has Steve Smith, Jeremy Shockey, Greg Olsen, and a nice duo of backs in DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart, who in total, the 5 have a combined 9 pro bowl appearances and 5 all-pro selestions. Tim Tebow has Eric Decker, Willis McGahee, Demaryius Thomas, Eddie Royal, and Lance Ball. Combined they have 1 pro bowl selection. The Broncos' Defense plays excellently, but there is still only so much that can be done with the names listed there.
The running stats between these two are very similar. Tebow has a 5.8 yard average with 610 yards and 5 Touchdowns, while Cam has 5.3 yard average with 609 yards and 13 Touchdowns.
I will agree with you that the -29 yard sack was entirely his fault and completely stupid, but at that point in the game only something desperate and risky could have won them the game. He has gotten out of situations just as bad before. Look at his first Touchdown against the Patriots on Sunday. Another example is his crazy escape and Touchdown pass to Demaryius Thomas against the Vikings. He is smart and can think with his legs. That is something Michael Vick can't do well. Just look at how often he is injured.
Though all of these stats are nice, one thing that Tebow is doing better than almost every other starter this season, winning. I don't care who you are, if you have a 1-4 record and get to 8-5, now 8-6, you are impressive. Looking at the interviews of Tebow's teammates, it shows how much they all respect this guy who has 12 total starts in his career. They all say how he is just different. He gets it done when he needs to, and if Tebow makes the playoffs, I believe that he definitely deserves a pro bowl selection.
Tim Tebow
Cam Newton
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On December 20 2011 04:29 Southlight wrote:
That's a joke article though. The crux of the argument was that the Broncos (namely, Tebow) turned the ball over too much, and the Patriots capitalized, and the Pats rarely lose when they win the turnover battle. Why does Tebow screwing up in one game, when his greatest strength has been ball security, suddenly make it so that he absolutely cannot be a franchise quarterback?
Make note, my jury's still out on him. I have no idea what to think. He's improving (slowly), and he moves the chains better than people give credit for. Will he ever be a Tom Brady type QB? Probably not. But can he be like a Steve McNair? Maybe (he'd have to get good at throwing). But come on, flailing against one of the best defensive masterminds in the league (many QBs falter in their first look at a Belichick defense) and having one of his worst turnover games, compounded by the defense being unable to reel in Brady, and suddenly they need to be making a QB switch? Give me a break.
Keeping it as real as the Redskins' beat writers that bash the Redskins every time they lose three months after pining for a complete rebuild with draft picks and shit. Good lord.
He has 10 fumbles or avg 1.1 per start. ball security is not his greatest strength.
you realize the patriots are the worst pass defense team in the league giving up close to 300 yards per game  .
They as a team did not protect the ball well. and after the first quarter when NE started stacking the box daring them to throw he faltered.
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The Patriots may have the worst pass defense but the Broncos' bread and butter over their success has been their running game. As such, it's highly irrelevant. Would it be great if the Broncos could pass and punish the bad pass defense? Of course. But that's why Tebow isn't a superb quarterback, and why Denver is probably not a legit super bowl contender. In that sense, that statistic is meaningless.
As a quarterback, Tebow's ball security is top-notch with just two picks - one in the loss to Detroit, and one last week against Chicago. That's across 220 throws, for a pretty damn good throw-pick ratio. Tops in the league actually. Can he secure the ball better as a runner? Yes. His carry-fumble ratio is one of the worst in the league, which is ironic given I believe it was Urlacher who called him a great RB. But many RBs have gotten better at cutting down on fumbles. He probably can too.
Neither of this is particularly astonishing. They're both consistent with what he's displayed all year.
Yet all of a sudden the Broncos (not considered legit SB contenders) lose to the Patriots (considered legit SB contenders), especially against a Belichick defense, and it's because Tebow couldn't keep up with Brady?
Give me a break.
It's like the idiots that skewered Romo for this game three years ago.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008122000/2008/REG16/ravens@cowboys#tab=recap
Edit:
Again it bears repeating that I don't care much for Tebow; I think the media is over-covering him (as they always do for controversial figures), but that's what the media's job is. I don't think he's a particularly good or even decent QB, although people pointing out that his running has affected defenses has made me have a slightly more open mind about his future prospects.
I do, however, think pointless hipster hate is just as retarded as the media over-coverage (if not moreso), and stupid articles like that one that try to skewer someone over unrelated concepts is just as idiotic. You admit yourself that the team as a whole didn't do well. Yet that's Tebow's fault?
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On December 20 2011 03:46 sermokala wrote:
you're completely ignoring the game plan that they're going with and its genius. having a qb who can burst out at any point and go for a great run is a huge threat that cannot be simply rushed with the front 4 and they must sent an lb or a cb or put pressure and get the tackle for that. he can west coast offence a good drive with his legs alone and the ability for his team to have 4 guys out running routes for a catch and a rb who can be the option in case the coverage is good.
It must be genius since this is the exact type of shit they run in highschool lol
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Who the fuck is Tim Tebows?
User was warned for this post
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I'm happy he lost yesterday. Getting real tired of hearing him and media preach about god this god that.
Tebow: I would like to thank god for making us lose yesterday, amen.
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i don't like the attention he's getting but hey that's not his fault
i will respect him if he stops running his mouth about religion god etc etc and if he shows that he can pass like an nfl qb.
he doesn't turn the ball over and has a decent amount of touchdowns which is great but imo but tebow doesn't seem like the kinda guy to just carry a team. that's the kinda trait peyton manning and brady have
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So Charlie Pierce is absolutely killing it over at Grantland, he's writing so much now and today he takes on Tim "Teabow" Tebow.
Pierce is absolutely awesome, he's one of America's three great sportswriters, behind Joe Posnanski and Tommy Craggs. And the fact that he's writing for Simmons? Weirdly Awesome.
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I have a feeling the league has an interest in making sure Tebow succeeds so they can bring in the heavily religious Christians. In a short while, the churchs will be showing tebow playing on the screen next to the preacher giving the sermon.
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Sounds like you should hate the media and not Tebow. As a Denver fan for all my life (31 years), it's actually fun to watch Denver games now, knowing that if there is a 1 score deficit in the 4th quarter there is ALWAYS a chance the Tebow team can come back. We never had that with Plummer or Orton or Griese, and were actually going to have it with Cutler until Josh McDouchebag sabotaged the entire goddamn team in 1 season.
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On December 20 2011 05:51 Livelovedie wrote:
I have a feeling the league has an interest in making sure Tebow succeeds so they can bring in the heavily religious Christians. In a short while, the churchs will be showing tebow playing on the screen next to the preacher giving the sermon.
Every player can say what they want in their interview, Tebow is the kind that feels the need to honor his faith first. What's wrong with that? He gets press because he wins games despite public opinion stating he is a failure at the quarterback position, not because he's a christian.
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On December 20 2011 04:38 Rkie wrote: Tebow is an interesting topic to discuss. He does complete 48 percent of his passes. He is currently 32nd in the league in passing yards this season. Tebow has 10 fumbles and lost 4 on the year. If you want to look at running the ball too, Tebow is up there with most anyone you want to compare him to. He won't necessarily get the yards, because he is a quarterback, but he still has 5.8 yards per run. You said to compare him to Cam Newton, a passer and runner. Cam has 59.6% completions and 3722 yards. Tebow has 48.6% and 1484 yards. But, getting a lot of yards doesn't mean much to me. The important stat to me is that Cam Newton has 17 Touchdowns and 16 Interceptions, with 2 lost fumbles. Tebow has 11 Touchdowns, and only 2 Interceptions, with 4 lost fumbles. Taking care of the ball is the most important thing a team has to do after scoring. Another thing to look at is the weapons a quarterback has. Cam Newton has Steve Smith, Jeremy Shockey, Greg Olsen, and a nice duo of backs in DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart, who in total, the 5 have a combined 9 pro bowl appearances and 5 all-pro selestions. Tim Tebow has Eric Decker, Willis McGahee, Demaryius Thomas, Eddie Royal, and Lance Ball. Combined they have 1 pro bowl selection. The Broncos' Defense plays excellently, but there is still only so much that can be done with the names listed there. The running stats between these two are very similar. Tebow has a 5.8 yard average with 610 yards and 5 Touchdowns, while Cam has 5.3 yard average with 609 yards and 13 Touchdowns. I will agree with you that the -29 yard sack was entirely his fault and completely stupid, but at that point in the game only something desperate and risky could have won them the game. He has gotten out of situations just as bad before. Look at his first Touchdown against the Patriots on Sunday. Another example is his crazy escape and Touchdown pass to Demaryius Thomas against the Vikings. He is smart and can think with his legs. That is something Michael Vick can't do well. Just look at how often he is injured. Though all of these stats are nice, one thing that Tebow is doing better than almost every other starter this season, winning. I don't care who you are, if you have a 1-4 record and get to 8-5, now 8-6, you are impressive. Looking at the interviews of Tebow's teammates, it shows how much they all respect this guy who has 12 total starts in his career. They all say how he is just different. He gets it done when he needs to, and if Tebow makes the playoffs, I believe that he definitely deserves a pro bowl selection. Tim TebowCam Newton
I brought out the Cam comparison because I also was a doubter on him as a NFL qb. To be honest I envisioned him as a Jamarcus Russell type bust lol. I was way off on this one.
Taking care of the ball is important. I feel that can be taught over time to a young qb. Cam will obviously have more int's because his coaches believe he can make all of the throws a QB in the NFL needs to make. It will be interesting to see how he does next year assuming they take off more of the leash. The Broncos coaching staff is not convinced giving their run run run mentality thus far.
You bring up another interesting comment/angle in regards to the surrounding cast. Steve Smith last year was horrendous. He all but seemed done. Jimmy Clausen and Matt Moore damn near killed him it seemed. This year with Cam he is on pace for one of his best years. Olsen is a good tight end, not too hot on Shockey; he seems to be overrated to me personally.
Now for Denver you had one of the top10 wr's in the league last year in Brandon Lloyd who wanted out as soon as they made the "switch". I believe Carolina does have more weapons in terms of wr's and te's. And I dont see that ever changing because what good receivers wants to waste away their career on a team that cannot get them the ball? Denver is going to need some luck in the draft or hope he learns how to throw better.
Extending the play; its a love hate relationship lol. I see this alot with Ben as qb. When it works its great when it doesnt it can be ugly. His high ankle sprain against Cleveland is a perfect example of the bad. Had he thrown it away when he first escaped the rush he wouldnt be in a boot. Tonights game which is hugely important and essentially a must win for a 1st round bye is going to be that more tough. Its a tough tough call on how essential it is to being a good qb. Sometimes you need to just give up the play.
At the end of the day winning is truly what matters, and when the losses start coming it will be interesting to see the backlash he gets if any at all. Or if people start making excuses. Denver is fortunate to have good veteran leaders on their team that will not publicly trash a teammate. I can't recall Champ or Brian ever saying anything negative.
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I used to hate on him, too. I'm proud he's done so well and that's all I will say
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On December 20 2011 04:50 Southlight wrote:The Patriots may have the worst pass defense but the Broncos' bread and butter over their success has been their running game. As such, it's highly irrelevant. Would it be great if the Broncos could pass and punish the bad pass defense? Of course. But that's why Tebow isn't a superb quarterback, and why Denver is probably not a legit super bowl contender. In that sense, that statistic is meaningless. As a quarterback, Tebow's ball security is top-notch with just two picks - one in the loss to Detroit, and one last week against Chicago. That's across 220 throws, for a pretty damn good throw-pick ratio. Tops in the league actually. Can he secure the ball better as a runner? Yes. His carry-fumble ratio is one of the worst in the league, which is ironic given I believe it was Urlacher who called him a great RB. But many RBs have gotten better at cutting down on fumbles. He probably can too. Neither of this is particularly astonishing. They're both consistent with what he's displayed all year. Yet all of a sudden the Broncos (not considered legit SB contenders) lose to the Patriots (considered legit SB contenders), especially against a Belichick defense, and it's because Tebow couldn't keep up with Brady? Give me a break. It's like the idiots that skewered Romo for this game three years ago. http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2008122000/2008/REG16/ravens@cowboys#tab=recapEdit: Again it bears repeating that I don't care much for Tebow; I think the media is over-covering him (as they always do for controversial figures), but that's what the media's job is. I don't think he's a particularly good or even decent QB, although people pointing out that his running has affected defenses has made me have a slightly more open mind about his future prospects. I do, however, think pointless hipster hate is just as retarded as the media over-coverage (if not moreso), and stupid articles like that one that try to skewer someone over unrelated concepts is just as idiotic. You admit yourself that the team as a whole didn't do well. Yet that's Tebow's fault?
Urlacher was dogging his qb skills post game.
See I think the media's job is to bring stories that aren't in the limelight and expose them. Not repeatedly rehash the same old same old. But I suppose this is more status quo this day and age.
See the problem I have is the fact it seems he is only responsible when they when and not responsible when they lose. Last week it was made out that he kicked a 59 yard field goal lol...Its like there is not middle ground with him and that is what makes it maddening to me. Like I get annoyed when the announcers drool over Tom Brady, but I can agree that he actually is a really good qb.
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On December 20 2011 06:16 tehemperorer wrote:
Sounds like you should hate the media and not Tebow. As a Denver fan for all my life (31 years), it's actually fun to watch Denver games now, knowing that if there is a 1 score deficit in the 4th quarter there is ALWAYS a chance the Tebow team can come back. We never had that with Plummer or Orton or Griese, and were actually going to have it with Cutler until Josh McDouchebag sabotaged the entire goddamn team in 1 season.
Yea McDaniel's screwed you guys over big time in his tenure. The hype wagon makes him a very easy target to dislike. Media in general is a travesty. The main issue is their bias can possibly become the only opinion people some people can get to see and then you got people thinking unreasonable things.
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On December 20 2011 04:38 Rkie wrote: Tebow is an interesting topic to discuss. He does complete 48 percent of his passes. He is currently 32nd in the league in passing yards this season. Tebow has 10 fumbles and lost 4 on the year. If you want to look at running the ball too, Tebow is up there with most anyone you want to compare him to. He won't necessarily get the yards, because he is a quarterback, but he still has 5.8 yards per run. You said to compare him to Cam Newton, a passer and runner. Cam has 59.6% completions and 3722 yards. Tebow has 48.6% and 1484 yards. But, getting a lot of yards doesn't mean much to me. The important stat to me is that Cam Newton has 17 Touchdowns and 16 Interceptions, with 2 lost fumbles. Tebow has 11 Touchdowns, and only 2 Interceptions, with 4 lost fumbles. Taking care of the ball is the most important thing a team has to do after scoring. Another thing to look at is the weapons a quarterback has. Cam Newton has Steve Smith, Jeremy Shockey, Greg Olsen, and a nice duo of backs in DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart, who in total, the 5 have a combined 9 pro bowl appearances and 5 all-pro selestions. Tim Tebow has Eric Decker, Willis McGahee, Demaryius Thomas, Eddie Royal, and Lance Ball. Combined they have 1 pro bowl selection. The Broncos' Defense plays excellently, but there is still only so much that can be done with the names listed there. The running stats between these two are very similar. Tebow has a 5.8 yard average with 610 yards and 5 Touchdowns, while Cam has 5.3 yard average with 609 yards and 13 Touchdowns. I will agree with you that the -29 yard sack was entirely his fault and completely stupid, but at that point in the game only something desperate and risky could have won them the game. He has gotten out of situations just as bad before. Look at his first Touchdown against the Patriots on Sunday. Another example is his crazy escape and Touchdown pass to Demaryius Thomas against the Vikings. He is smart and can think with his legs. That is something Michael Vick can't do well. Just look at how often he is injured. Though all of these stats are nice, one thing that Tebow is doing better than almost every other starter this season, winning. I don't care who you are, if you have a 1-4 record and get to 8-5, now 8-6, you are impressive. Looking at the interviews of Tebow's teammates, it shows how much they all respect this guy who has 12 total starts in his career. They all say how he is just different. He gets it done when he needs to, and if Tebow makes the playoffs, I believe that he definitely deserves a pro bowl selection. Tim TebowCam Newton
How can you sit and say yards don't matter?? It's absolutely relevant to what everyone's talking about and it was apparent yesterday: Against good teams who are either good on D or strong offenses, the Broncos will be in trouble because they can only play one gimmicky brand of football. They get in a hole like they did vs the Pats--done. Some defensive squad comes in and puts the clamp on the run and forces Tebow to pass: done. The only reason this wasn't more apparent thus far is the D was playing bonkers
Cam, every bit as good of a runner as Tebow, throws for a full 140 yds/game more than Tim, and he's a rookie who came in without a real offseason. He is a multi dimensional threat. TD:INT tends to vary year to year, and on top of that, he is playing with a shitty D that is injured to boot, so they've been playing behind on top of everything. That is a recipe for lots of turnovers. But a QB like him gives you the ability to be dynamic on offense, which would have possibly bailed a club when they get into trouble like the Broncos did yesetrday
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As a casual NFL fan (just watch the Sunday night games but don't keep up with any news) he's a gimmick. I personally love seeing QB's run with the ball though or at least have the ability to, like Vick or even Roethlisberger to an extent, and dislike QB's like Eli Manning. Get's boring seeing Rodgers make most of his passes and every drive resulting in a TD. I'd much rather see a struggle but maybe that's because I don't support any one team as well.
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On December 20 2011 07:01 Full.tilt wrote:
As a casual NFL fan (just watch the Sunday night games but don't keep up with any news) he's a gimmick. I personally love seeing QB's run with the ball though or at least have the ability to, like Vick or even Roethlisberger to an extent, and dislike QB's like Eli Manning. Get's boring seeing Rodgers make most of his passes and every drive resulting in a TD. I'd much rather see a struggle but maybe that's because I don't support any one team as well.
ya know rodgers is one of the best running qb's in the league, as least when it comes to escaping pressure and extending the play. I think someone more like Tom Brady is the type of person who ONLY drops back and throws.
But on topic, the tebow buzz is kind of annoying but the guy is 7-2 when NO ONE believed he would be good, so it's not really surprising that people are talking about it
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Teabow is all hype
It will all fizzle out soon.
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On December 20 2011 07:23 zOula... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 07:01 Full.tilt wrote:
As a casual NFL fan (just watch the Sunday night games but don't keep up with any news) he's a gimmick. I personally love seeing QB's run with the ball though or at least have the ability to, like Vick or even Roethlisberger to an extent, and dislike QB's like Eli Manning. Get's boring seeing Rodgers make most of his passes and every drive resulting in a TD. I'd much rather see a struggle but maybe that's because I don't support any one team as well. ya know rodgers is one of the best running qb's in the league, as least when it comes to escaping pressure and extending the play. I think someone more like Tom Brady is the type of person who ONLY drops back and throws. But on topic, the tebow buzz is kind of annoying but the guy is 7-2 when NO ONE believed he would be good, so it's not really surprising that people are talking about it
Quarterbacks don't win games, teams do.
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On December 20 2011 08:55 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 07:23 zOula... wrote:On December 20 2011 07:01 Full.tilt wrote:
As a casual NFL fan (just watch the Sunday night games but don't keep up with any news) he's a gimmick. I personally love seeing QB's run with the ball though or at least have the ability to, like Vick or even Roethlisberger to an extent, and dislike QB's like Eli Manning. Get's boring seeing Rodgers make most of his passes and every drive resulting in a TD. I'd much rather see a struggle but maybe that's because I don't support any one team as well. ya know rodgers is one of the best running qb's in the league, as least when it comes to escaping pressure and extending the play. I think someone more like Tom Brady is the type of person who ONLY drops back and throws. But on topic, the tebow buzz is kind of annoying but the guy is 7-2 when NO ONE believed he would be good, so it's not really surprising that people are talking about it Quarterbacks don't win games, teams do.
If there ever was time for QBs to win games, it is now. Your statement is about 4 years late.
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I think people miss the point about the Tebow hype. The hype isn't that he's an amazing quarterback that leads his team to victory. The hype is that he's NOT a very good quarterback that plays terribly for 3 quarters and pulls off come from behind victories in the 4th quarter week after week.
I'm sorry but you can't say that the Tebow hype isn't warranted because he blows. If a quarterback blows but his team was 7-1 then that is an incredibly fascinating story. Packers' fans love the complain that Rodgers deserves the spotlight over Tebow. Why should we care about the Rodgers story? Yeah he is having possibly the best year of all time, but it's not THAT much better than Brady's '07 year or Manning's '04 year, or even Brees's current year. It's a story we've heard before. I want to hear the story about the quarterback that can't complete half his passes and struggles to throw a spiral yet has taken a 1-4 team to a playoff contender since he started. Entertaining as fuck.
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Here's why it's fun:
Remember the movie Braveheart? Remember before the big battle, they were outnumbered 3 to 1, they have inferior soldiers that don't really know how to fight properly. You have inferior stats, just like Tim Tebow's passing percentage.
Now imagine the Scottish screaming TEBOOOOOW!, and knowing that despite being behind and in a worse position, they have the English exactly where they want them, and they just KNOW they're going to fucking win.
Now imagine after the battle, the English asking themselves, "what the fuck just happened?" Tim Tebow.
Also works for say Helms Deep in Lord of the Rings (Gandalf is Tim Tebow?), the Rocky movies, just about any underdog story.
Anytime you're behind in a game or sport against a better player/team, just scream TEBOW and just pull a win out of your ass.
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Lol I'd be excited if it was like that, but Tebow and Braveheart imo just don't belong in the same sentence. Guy is just too shitty.
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On December 20 2011 10:25 discodancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 08:55 Rostam wrote:On December 20 2011 07:23 zOula... wrote:On December 20 2011 07:01 Full.tilt wrote:
As a casual NFL fan (just watch the Sunday night games but don't keep up with any news) he's a gimmick. I personally love seeing QB's run with the ball though or at least have the ability to, like Vick or even Roethlisberger to an extent, and dislike QB's like Eli Manning. Get's boring seeing Rodgers make most of his passes and every drive resulting in a TD. I'd much rather see a struggle but maybe that's because I don't support any one team as well. ya know rodgers is one of the best running qb's in the league, as least when it comes to escaping pressure and extending the play. I think someone more like Tom Brady is the type of person who ONLY drops back and throws. But on topic, the tebow buzz is kind of annoying but the guy is 7-2 when NO ONE believed he would be good, so it's not really surprising that people are talking about it Quarterbacks don't win games, teams do. If there ever was time for QBs to win games, it is now. Your statement is about 4 years late.
There wasn't.
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I made some good money off a couple Tebowmaniacs this weekend. They were silly enough to give me 1:1 odds on NE  . The one time the Tebows faced a team with an offense performing well, they got STOMPED (hehe). NE > Detroit, so the result was obvious.
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It is just amusing to see how he time and time again proves his doubters wrong by pulling out victory after victory. This guy is like the exact opposite of Lebron James, having no fantastic or even average skill but showing up in the fourth quarter.
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You think you got it bad? Try being a Chiefs fan living in Denver lol. My mom and I were talking on the phone about how we wanted the Broncos to lose extra bad this past week just because we are sick of Tebow, and our wish was granted.
In unrelated news the Chiefs (5-8) beat the Packers (13-0). The Kansas City Chiefs, continuing to not make sense now and forever.
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On December 20 2011 14:22 Rostam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 10:25 discodancer wrote:On December 20 2011 08:55 Rostam wrote:On December 20 2011 07:23 zOula... wrote:On December 20 2011 07:01 Full.tilt wrote:
As a casual NFL fan (just watch the Sunday night games but don't keep up with any news) he's a gimmick. I personally love seeing QB's run with the ball though or at least have the ability to, like Vick or even Roethlisberger to an extent, and dislike QB's like Eli Manning. Get's boring seeing Rodgers make most of his passes and every drive resulting in a TD. I'd much rather see a struggle but maybe that's because I don't support any one team as well. ya know rodgers is one of the best running qb's in the league, as least when it comes to escaping pressure and extending the play. I think someone more like Tom Brady is the type of person who ONLY drops back and throws. But on topic, the tebow buzz is kind of annoying but the guy is 7-2 when NO ONE believed he would be good, so it's not really surprising that people are talking about it Quarterbacks don't win games, teams do. If there ever was time for QBs to win games, it is now. Your statement is about 4 years late. There wasn't.
well its certainly the most important position in football. and anyways that has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The broncos went from 1-4 to 8-6 and playoff contenders in the afc when Tebow was the starter
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On December 20 2011 17:13 zOula... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 14:22 Rostam wrote:On December 20 2011 10:25 discodancer wrote:On December 20 2011 08:55 Rostam wrote:On December 20 2011 07:23 zOula... wrote:On December 20 2011 07:01 Full.tilt wrote:
As a casual NFL fan (just watch the Sunday night games but don't keep up with any news) he's a gimmick. I personally love seeing QB's run with the ball though or at least have the ability to, like Vick or even Roethlisberger to an extent, and dislike QB's like Eli Manning. Get's boring seeing Rodgers make most of his passes and every drive resulting in a TD. I'd much rather see a struggle but maybe that's because I don't support any one team as well. ya know rodgers is one of the best running qb's in the league, as least when it comes to escaping pressure and extending the play. I think someone more like Tom Brady is the type of person who ONLY drops back and throws. But on topic, the tebow buzz is kind of annoying but the guy is 7-2 when NO ONE believed he would be good, so it's not really surprising that people are talking about it Quarterbacks don't win games, teams do. If there ever was time for QBs to win games, it is now. Your statement is about 4 years late. There wasn't. well its certainly the most important position in football. and anyways that has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. The broncos went from 1-4 to 8-6 and playoff contenders in the afc when Tebow was the starter
exactly. I remember when he started and my friend and I watched his first game and were impressed by his running game. I don't know why people hate him based on what the media has done. He's done his job fairly well.
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On December 20 2011 15:26 Jonoman92 wrote:
You think you got it bad? Try being a Chiefs fan living in Denver lol. My mom and I were talking on the phone about how we wanted the Broncos to lose extra bad this past week just because we are sick of Tebow, and our wish was granted.
In unrelated news the Chiefs (5-8) beat the Packers (13-0). The Kansas City Chiefs, continuing to not make sense now and forever.
It's Orton Time! Ortonmania is the new thing!
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Personally, I hope Tebow "leads" the Broncos to the playoffs and they lose a heartbreaking game in the 1st or 2nd round. However, next year, when all of the fans are anticipating a great season; the other shoe drops and they go about 4-12 with Tebow putting up nearly identical status but not somehow squeaking out victories.
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On December 20 2011 18:47 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Personally, I hope Tebow "leads" the Broncos to the playoffs and they lose a heartbreaking game in the 1st or 2nd round. However, next year, when all of the fans are anticipating a great season; the other shoe drops and they go about 4-12 with Tebow putting up nearly identical status but not somehow squeaking out victories.
in addition to their simple offense probably being figured out over the course of a full year, the Broncos will also play some tougher opponents next year
http://www.johnnyroadtrip.com/schedules/nfl_future_afcw.htm
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On December 20 2011 18:47 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Personally, I hope Tebow "leads" the Broncos to the playoffs and they lose a heartbreaking game in the 1st or 2nd round. However, next year, when all of the fans are anticipating a great season; the other shoe drops and they go about 4-12 with Tebow putting up nearly identical status but not somehow squeaking out victories.
This is how I feel this whole thing will play out as well. The guy just hasn't gotten as good as he should be and "making the rest of the team better to carry your shitty ass" can only go so far.
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Regardless of how good Tebow actually is he's easily one of the best I've seen in recent times at getting his team to believe/support him. If you have a QB that the rest of the offense believes in you'll have a decent team. It could even help the defense too.
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On December 20 2011 18:47 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Personally, I hope Tebow "leads" the Broncos to the playoffs and they lose a heartbreaking game in the 1st or 2nd round. However, next year, when all of the fans are anticipating a great season; the other shoe drops and they go about 4-12 with Tebow putting up nearly identical status but not somehow squeaking out victories.
Ideally what will happen is when/if they win their division they will have to play the other division winners and have a much harder overall schedule. Next year for instance they play against the AFC North, so Pittsburgh & Baltimore will be real challenges and possibly Cincy if they continue to develop with Dalton and Green. For the NFC they will play the NFC South with ATL and NO as solid teams. So thats 4 tough opponents at the very least.
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On December 20 2011 23:35 LuckyFool wrote:
Regardless of how good Tebow actually is he's easily one of the best I've seen in recent times at getting his team to believe/support him. If you have a QB that the rest of the offense believes in you'll have a decent team. It could even help the defense too.
Like I said earlier Denver has good veteran leadership on their team overall. They have no T.O. type players to stir up useless drama.
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I just don't understand the Tebow hate, other than when it comes from anti-religious types.
I mean, this is a guy that will never be caught with drugs, will never beat someone up, will never be out getting multiple DUIs, will never rape someone or torture dogs... but we have to hate him because he happens to be Christian.
Then people say he's "too open about it"...
I see these guys every single sunday tackling someone when their team is behind by 40+ points, and the retard that just tackled that guy has some retard celebration planned and he does it without thinking "hey, I'm getting TROUNCED right now"... and everyone loves it. Tim Tebow decides to bow on the sidelines and be open about his religion and suddenly it's "how arrogant, ugh what a POS."
Chargers fan here and I can admit that the guy is a miracle. He's a straight up miracle.
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On December 21 2011 02:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I just don't understand the Tebow hate, other than when it comes from anti-religious types.
I mean, this is a guy that will never be caught with drugs, will never beat someone up, will never be out getting multiple DUIs, will never rape someone or torture dogs... but we have to hate him because he happens to be Christian.
Then people say he's "too open about it"...
I see these guys every single sunday tackling someone when their team is behind by 40+ points, and the retard that just tackled that guy has some retard celebration planned and he does it without thinking "hey, I'm getting TROUNCED right now"... and everyone loves it. Tim Tebow decides to bow on the sidelines and be open about his religion and suddenly it's "how arrogant, ugh what a POS."
Chargers fan here and I can admit that the guy is a miracle. He's a straight up miracle.
The religious stuff is not even a reason I dislike him. Hell 90% of players/musicians/actors all talk about their beliefs/thank god for their award etc.. And again my dislike is not about how he conducts himself off the field. I respect that he genuinely seems like a dude on the up and up. ESPN talked about how he invites a fan & family going through troubles and hangs out with them after the game and talks regardless of win or lose. That stuff is good to hear. They(athletes) are community eladers whether they like it or not. I also like the little piece they did on Braylon Edwards. He gives 100 10,000$ scholarships to kids in high school for college. I never knew about it. Since his salary from the 49ers this year is "only" 1million he is playing for free this year to honor his commitment.
My dislike about the mania is the fact that people talk like he is a good quaterback. He just is not. He has the drive to be good, but lacks the necessary skills to be a legitimate qb in the league.
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I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.
So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...
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On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.
So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though...
Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's?
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On December 21 2011 02:28 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I just don't understand the Tebow hate, other than when it comes from anti-religious types.
I mean, this is a guy that will never be caught with drugs, will never beat someone up, will never be out getting multiple DUIs, will never rape someone or torture dogs... but we have to hate him because he happens to be Christian.
Then people say he's "too open about it"...
I see these guys every single sunday tackling someone when their team is behind by 40+ points, and the retard that just tackled that guy has some retard celebration planned and he does it without thinking "hey, I'm getting TROUNCED right now"... and everyone loves it. Tim Tebow decides to bow on the sidelines and be open about his religion and suddenly it's "how arrogant, ugh what a POS."
Chargers fan here and I can admit that the guy is a miracle. He's a straight up miracle.
I don't have anything against Tim Tebow the person. I just think it's ridiculous that all this media coverage goes to a mediocre QB who leads comebacks against bad/mediocre teams. Look at Arizona... John Skelton has 5 comeback wins this year, coming off the bench just like Tebow. He's also a far better QB. Yet he hardly gets any props from the media compared to their darling Tebow.
Basically, I don't hate Tebow, I'm annoyed with the sports media and all the people who bought into the Tebow hype.
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Dont hate Tebow, how would we have Tebowing without Tebow?
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On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.
So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though... Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's?
VINCE 'JUST WINS' BABY! WOOOOO HOOK 'EM!
gauging a QB off of wins is the most absurd thing ever. There's like four pages of people saying how they dislike him for the hype surronding his skills and then you come in saying it's because everyone hates religion..???
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On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.
So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though... Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's?
Tim Tebow is doing better than they did, statistically speaking.
edit: Two super-bowl winning coaches have expressed their belief that he will succeed (Gruden, Dungy)
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On December 21 2011 03:58 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote:On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.
So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though... Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's? Tim Tebow is doing better than they did, statistically speaking.
Dilfer was 7-1 for the Ravens 10-1 overall counting playoffs and the superbowl in 2000. You kind of see where I am going with this one? I think sometimes teams can win despite an inept qb. A good defense and a good running games does wonders 
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But did Trent go on to have seventeen more winning seasons with that same team? Did he even stay with that team for another year? (I forget)
I mean, he didn't stay a winning QB, so he got traded around and eventually quit. It seems to me that a team with a bad or mediocre QB will win sometimes, but will not consistently be a contender for the SB. Now, obviously Denver has yet to become a consistent contender for anything... but that's why I say to wait and see.
I hope to God that they lose out, because I really don't want to miss the playoffs again; but I also hope Tebow does well because he's a great guy and an interesting story. I've watched him play though, rather closely, for a while, and I think he's got what it takes. I can totally see why other people don't, but I do have to think that they're wrong.
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On December 21 2011 03:52 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2011 02:52 lvent wrote:On December 21 2011 02:50 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
I don't think he is necessarily a very skilled QB, but I think we need to wait a couple more games to see if he can be called a "good" QB or not. IMO, good QBs usually win games. Sometimes a good QB gets a bad team, or an unlucky run or whatever, but in general, to me, wins = good.
So we'll see. Dude doesn't have the skillset of other QBs but he's winning anyway, so we'll have to wait and see. Only he can know if he's going to succeed or not. I don't think a bad QB will win many games though... Would you consider trent dilfer & tony banks good qb's? VINCE 'JUST WINS' BABY! WOOOOO HOOK 'EM! gauging a QB off of wins is the most absurd thing ever. There's like four pages of people saying how they dislike him for the hype surronding his skills and then you come in saying it's because everyone hates religion..???
How is it the most absurd thing ever? At the end of the day aren't you playing to win football games? Shouldn't you be playing players that give you the best chance to win?
The Broncos were awful and were looking at a 5 win season at best before Tebow came in, now they're in contention for the AFC West. That alone trumps nearly any argument anyone can make about the kid right now.
Something that can't be said about Dilfer/Banks is those teams were going to be good with or without them playing. The Broncos clearly changed quite a bit as soon as Tebow stepped in...
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Because determining whether or not a QB is good by the record doesn't come close to telling the whole story about his play.
Would you know from that record that in almost all of those games, Tebow was terrible for all but the last 5 minutes of the game? That his defense was averaging some 14pts/g over that win streak vs 25 or something before, which is the only reason Tebow had the opportunity to come back in most of those games despite not putting points on the board?
You can apply the same thing to most 'Just Wins' QBs to prove that theory that a record really means shit as far as the actual skill level of a QB. It's like apm in bw.
Trent Dilfer went 10-1 or whatever as mentioned earlier in the page. Can you tell from that that he had one of the generation's greatest defenses behind him for that? That the run game essentially carried that offense?
Ditto with the Niners. Alex Smith is 11-3 as a starter this season. Is he a good qb now??
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I agree with you in general that record alone doesn't tell the full story. But I don't think it's an absurd thing to use to help evaluate a QB though.
I think Tebow is sort of an expectation to the rule for me right now. The Broncos were looking awful before Tebow came in then they started winning. It can be really hard to tell if the key was the team around the QB that stepped up, or the QB doing something that sparked the team. Or just dumb luck. There's ALOT that goes on in the locker room, at practice and team facilities that we will never see or know about. All we see is on the field on Sundays which isn't always a true tell of the situation. Nether are stats.
It's like opening a replay in bwchart before actually watching the game. You can't open a replay and see 300apm and hotkeys all over the place and assume the player is going to be amazing. (Me) Or see 120 apm and think they're awful. (White-Ra)
Dilfer/Alex Smith simply piggybacked off good teams. Are the Broncos actually a good team this year? Good enough to carry an awful QB? The difference for me with Tebow vs an Alex Smith or Dilfer is unlike Smith/Dilfer Tebow didn't "inherit" a particularly strong team. (In my opinion)
by the way I do actually think Tebow is being ridiculously overhyped, but I think he is getting too much hate as well. His team is winning, bottom line.
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On December 21 2011 04:13 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:
But did Trent go on to have seventeen more winning seasons with that same team? Did he even stay with that team for another year? (I forget)
I mean, he didn't stay a winning QB, so he got traded around and eventually quit. It seems to me that a team with a bad or mediocre QB will win sometimes, but will not consistently be a contender for the SB. Now, obviously Denver has yet to become a consistent contender for anything... but that's why I say to wait and see.
I hope to God that they lose out, because I really don't want to miss the playoffs again; but I also hope Tebow does well because he's a great guy and an interesting story. I've watched him play though, rather closely, for a while, and I think he's got what it takes. I can totally see why other people don't, but I do have to think that they're wrong.
Trent was either traded or released the following year. The real Cleveland Browns(Ravens) signed Elvis Grbac(spelling?). Dilfer went on the spent the next 4 or so years as a back up to Matt Hassleback(99% sure) in Seattle. I remember at some point before his career ended he played for the browns and got destroyed one year on that abysmal team.
I just feel that people are hyping just him up as a "bright spot" for the next generation of young qb's. Someone else posted earlier about the qb from Arizona with 5 comeback wins. He gets zero coverage here(PA). If Tebow busts his ass in the offseason and comes into next year and shows improvement in the passing game then fine talk about it. But jock riding a < 50% passer is mind boggling.
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On December 21 2011 04:19 LuckyFool wrote:
How is it the most absurd thing ever? At the end of the day aren't you playing to win football games? Shouldn't you be playing players that give you the best chance to win?
The Broncos were awful and were looking at a 5 win season at best before Tebow came in, now they're in contention for the AFC West. That alone trumps nearly any argument anyone can make about the kid right now.
Something that can't be said about Dilfer/Banks is those teams were going to be good with or without them playing. The Broncos clearly changed quite a bit as soon as Tebow stepped in...
Here was the schedule pre switch.
Sep 12 Oakland Lost 20-23 --> They looked very respectable the first 7 weeks of the year.
Sep 18 Cincinnati Won 24-22 --> Cincy is in the running for a wildcard, I didnt expect them to be legit
Sep 25 @Tennessee Lost 14-17 --> I think Hasslbeck sucks too, but he did beat Balt.
Oct 2 @Green Bay Lost 23-49 --> Rodgers was/is sick this year
Oct 9 San Diego Lost 24-29 --> they made the switch in this game..
Post swap
Oct 23 @Miami Won 18-15 OT --> 0-5 dolphin team that quit on their coach
Oct 30 Detroit Lost 10-45 --> this was when Detroit still havent lost their minds
Nov 6 @Oakland Won 38-24 --> dumb ass carson plamer and no Mcfadden
Nov 13 @Kansas City Won 17-10 --> Coaching turmoil
Nov 17 N.Y. Jets Won 17-13 --> Im still shocked that happened. good win
Nov 27 @San Diego Won 16-13 OT --> chargers kicker choked
Dec 4 @Minnesota Won 35-32 --> I *think* this is the game he actually looked like a qb i.e. good cpl%
Dec 11 Chicago Won 13-10 OT --> no cutler no forte 99 field goal kick etc..
Dec 18 New England Lost 23-41 --> defense destroyed option plays.
I dont know man Orton looked pretty good against Green Bay I think he could have stolen some of the same games mentioned above.
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On December 21 2011 06:48 LuckyFool wrote:
I agree with you in general that record alone doesn't tell the full story. But I don't think it's an absurd thing to use to help evaluate a QB though.
I think Tebow is sort of an expectation to the rule for me right now. The Broncos were looking awful before Tebow came in then they started winning. It can be really hard to tell if the key was the team around the QB that stepped up, or the QB doing something that sparked the team. Or just dumb luck. There's ALOT that goes on in the locker room, at practice and team facilities that we will never see or know about. All we see is on the field on Sundays which isn't always a true tell of the situation. Nether are stats.
It's like opening a replay in bwchart before actually watching the game. You can't open a replay and see 300apm and hotkeys all over the place and assume the player is going to be amazing. (Me) Or see 120 apm and think they're awful. (White-Ra)
Dilfer/Alex Smith simply piggybacked off good teams. Are the Broncos actually a good team this year? Good enough to carry an awful QB? The difference for me with Tebow vs an Alex Smith or Dilfer is unlike Smith/Dilfer Tebow didn't "inherit" a particularly strong team. (In my opinion)
by the way I do actually think Tebow is being ridiculously overhyped, but I think he is getting too much hate as well. His team is winning, bottom line.
The D is definitely good enough to carry that offense vs the weak opponents they've won against since Tebow took over.
26-31 is the combined records of the opponents they beat with Tebow at the time they played them (I don't care to research the current records now, but I saw this stat recently and it was something like a ~.4x win% of the oppoents during the streak.) The point is, they are not playing quality teams in these wins. Chicago is the only team that approaches good territory out of those wins, and they were sans their only two weapons in Cutler and Forte, so that offense was about as impotent as a gay man in a straight brothel. The Jets have a shitty qb and no run game this year, and are slightly above average at best
They've given up 22pts/g on defense in those wins, and if you take out the wins in which they gave up 30 something, that drops down well below 20. More importantly, the strength is the pass rush, which generates a lot of turnovers and short fields, and masks up deficiencies elsewhere (hello, NYG)
The only thing you can really give Tebow credit for is his running abilities (which are admittedly awesome and why I want him to play some kind of H-Back; like a Randel El with more running skills) and how it helps open up lanes for the other runners. But that is only a half truth because McGahee already topped 100 three times in five games before Tebow took over. It's not as if he turned shit to gold back there with his jesus aura. And it's not as if this they've dominated TOP in those games either. They still sit in the bottom 1/3 for that category too.
The recipe for success is very simple: The D keeps the team in the game because it allows few points, and Tebow is at his best at late game because teams for some terrible reason sit in some kind of odd prevent and try to cover him with ends or shitty backers rather than really spying him, which allows him to fuck eveyrthing up because he can scramble and move outside of the pocket to find playerso n a broken play.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/31/article-2055722-0E9C920800000578-513_468x535.jpg)
