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Why isn't there any decent action RPG?

Blogs > kafkaesque
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kafkaesque
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Germany2006 Posts
November 29 2011 21:27 GMT
#1
What's up with that?

In 2002 I fell in love with a game called Diablo 2.

I couldn't tell you, why.
It felt great playing, it was somber, fast paced, super fun, highly addictive and super annoying.

Bots everywhere, cheaters everywhere.
Horrid itemization (Enigma, anyone?), imbalanced builds, repititive gameplay, very few social features and an unstable battle.net that punished legit players quite often.

It was still the best time I had in front of a computer.

Many games have tried to emulate, to copy, to even dethrone Diablo 2 and all of them failed.

Now that the wait for Diablo 3 get unbareable, Torchlight II isn't even in sight and my PC isn't good enough for Skyrim, I yearn for some monster-smashing action that has polished gameplay.

It should be:

- fast paced
- decent controls
- addictive in some way
- longer than 10 hours
- not turn based
- run on a five year old PC

Impossible?
If I know TL at all, it isn't.

**
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
annul
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2841 Posts
November 29 2011 21:33 GMT
#2
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2
HwangjaeTerran
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Finland5967 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 21:36:52
November 29 2011 21:34 GMT
#3
Diablo 1
e.
On November 30 2011 06:27 kafkaesque wrote:
It was still the best time I had in front of a computer.


you know, there are some sites that are just...
sweet
https://steamcommunity.com/id/*tlusernamehere*/
Kamille
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Monaco1035 Posts
November 29 2011 21:35 GMT
#4
On November 30 2011 06:33 annul wrote:
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2


What PC from five years ago can run SC2?
Priphea
Sqalevon
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands523 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 21:36:58
November 29 2011 21:35 GMT
#5
Titanquest is pretty sweet.
http://store.steampowered.com/sub/402/
Erik.TheRed
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1655 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 21:39:31
November 29 2011 21:35 GMT
#6
Dragon Age: Origins has one of the best RPG combat systems I've ever seen. Tactical, action-packed, and really addicting (kind of a mix of final fantasy tactics and elder scrolls). It's not turn based except that everything has a global cooldown but you control your whole party and can pause during combat to set up spells and flanks. Also has a great (long) story and should be able to run on an older computer.
"See you space cowboy"
Louuster
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada2869 Posts
November 29 2011 21:39 GMT
#7
Diablo 2 is still alive and strong you might fall in love again depending on what kind of player you are.
Kim Taek Yong fighting~
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6600 Posts
November 29 2011 21:39 GMT
#8
On November 30 2011 06:35 Kamille wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:33 annul wrote:
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2


What PC from five years ago can run SC2?


I was running it on a 98 during the beta... a decent 98. But a 98 none-the-less. I'm still only running off a terrible 210 gfx and 2 gb of ram. just update your equipment! how do you expect to run D3 =/
LiquidDota Staff
BlackMagister
Profile Joined October 2008
United States5834 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 21:46:03
November 29 2011 21:42 GMT
#9
Yeah nvm didn't see the PC part, it's not even a pc game.
kafkaesque
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Germany2006 Posts
November 29 2011 21:45 GMT
#10
On November 30 2011 06:42 BlackMagister wrote:
I don't know if any rpgs are really fast paced like Diablo, but you should check out Dark Souls. Haven't had the time to play it but have played Demon Souls (Dark Souls is the spiritual succesor) and that would fit the description well enough. Stats are important, but less so than other rpgs as even being a high level doesn't mean you will win fights because the game expects you to be able to dodge. If it's like Demon Souls there will be a few cheap deaths from surprises, but overall it's fun because you get better and learn how to deal with enemies not just get stronger with stats.


Really doesn't look like the kind of game my computer will be able to run.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
Mindcrime
Profile Joined July 2004
United States6899 Posts
November 29 2011 21:45 GMT
#11
On November 30 2011 06:35 Kamille wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:33 annul wrote:
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2


What PC from five years ago can run SC2?


During beta and shortly after release, I played on a pc with a pentium 4.

And I got to diamond back then, so it obviously wasn't that big of a hindrance.
That wasn't any act of God. That was an act of pure human fuckery.
Terranasaur
Profile Joined May 2011
United States2085 Posts
November 29 2011 21:53 GMT
#12
There are some really fun Mods for Diablo 2 that make the game like new and fix many of the issues you describe. Check out Median XL.

Also there is Path of Exile. I played the Beta for a couple of days but it didn't really hold my attention like the Diablo games have.
Decisions Determine Destiny - Terranasaur#1719 D3 #557 SC2 3DS FC: 2423-3623-8068
kafkaesque
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Germany2006 Posts
November 29 2011 21:56 GMT
#13
I really don't like PoE.

I have a beta account, and I'd gladly trade this account for a couple of hours of D3 beta.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
liberal
Profile Joined November 2011
1116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 22:04:51
November 29 2011 22:03 GMT
#14
On November 30 2011 06:35 Kamille wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:33 annul wrote:
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2


What PC from five years ago can run SC2?

My PC is 5 years old and can run SC2 just fine, even with settings on medium if I don't max the resolution.

My advice: If you want a great RPG, you simply can't pass up Skyrim.

Anyway, when I think amazing RPG I think of FFVII. But I'm assuming you've already played that epic game.
Darkren
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada1841 Posts
November 29 2011 22:05 GMT
#15
Isn't the game problem, the problem comes from u growing up.
"Yeah, I send (hopefully) helpful PM's quite frequently. You don't have to warn/ban everything" - KadaverBB
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 22:06:44
November 29 2011 22:06 GMT
#16
The game you're looking for is Path of Exile which is currently in beta
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
November 29 2011 22:08 GMT
#17
--- Nuked ---
Jeremyy
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada182 Posts
November 29 2011 22:13 GMT
#18
Deus Ex.
Where's the pleasure in that?
prplhz
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Denmark8045 Posts
November 29 2011 22:14 GMT
#19
it's a conspiracy

software companies want games to require more resources 'cause they are always partnered with hardware companies who need to sell shit no games will run on old hardware anymore

also, diablo wasn't an rpg lol it was just 4 lulz but yea it was cool
http://i.imgur.com/M7t7egx.png
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
November 29 2011 22:17 GMT
#20
I saw Action RPG and thought Secret of Mana. But if you like Action RPGs you've played it, right?

There's the slightly less known Seiken Densetsu 3 (SoM is Seiken Densetsu 2 and FF Adventures is Seiken Densetsu 1)

So.... grab a friend and break out your super Nintendo!
Trucy Wright is hot
Jindo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1305 Posts
November 29 2011 22:20 GMT
#21
Divine Divinity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Divinity

SigmaoctanusIV
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States3313 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 22:27:13
November 29 2011 22:25 GMT
#22
I would consider knights of the old republic action RPG it's not the same dungeon crawler style that is Diablo 2 but it's an amazing game. Also Titan Quest is a pretty good series. Elder scrolls Morrowind, The Witcher 1 & 2

EDIT: These are all single player experiences well minus Titan Quest. If your looking for something more online Than I am at a loss there Never really tried Titan quest's online feature
I am Godzilla You are Japan
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
November 29 2011 22:28 GMT
#23
it sounds like you just want a good old hack and slash with crazy rpg elements. that's what console rpgs are about, actually

you're going to have to wait for this year's torchlight release, but even then d3 is going to come out sooner most likely
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
aiyeeta
Profile Joined June 2007
United States199 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 22:33:31
November 29 2011 22:32 GMT
#24
Do note that Skyrim is apparently on a highly optimized version of the engine Oblivion ran on, and as such supposedly is fairly forgiving as far as PC goes from what I've heard.

If you're looking for singleplayer, I'd suggest looking into the Fallout games, Torchlight.

If you're looking for multiplayer, Hellgate London is fun and free (there's an item you can buy with in game currency that opens up the whole game) and also made by the team that made Diablo 2, Diablo 2 is still a great game, League of Legends is free and fun if you enjoy competitive play and can tolerate trolls... Might even suggest Runescape if that's your thing since it can be free or cheap/month and has lots to do and a good community. Titan Quest was fun, especially if you enjoy Greek Mythology.

Good news for you: Most games lately are made to run on consoles that came out about 5 years ago, as such the PC versions are toned down from where they could be.

Also, check out Steam in the next month as it gets closer to Christmas, since they always do a MASSIVE game sale for Christmas.
"...And that was the first time I got crabs"
holdthephone
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States523 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-29 22:38:43
November 29 2011 22:35 GMT
#25
Bastion is pretty good, it's on XBLA and Steam. Combat isnt't stellar but the way the game is narrated is awesome. I think you could run it too, so it's right up your alley!


On November 30 2011 06:35 Erik.TheRed wrote:
Dragon Age: Origins has one of the best RPG combat systems I've ever seen. Tactical, action-packed, and really addicting (kind of a mix of final fantasy tactics and elder scrolls). It's not turn based except that everything has a global cooldown but you control your whole party and can pause during combat to set up spells and flanks. Also has a great (long) story and should be able to run on an older computer.


It would be unfair if you didn't mention the monotnous dungeons, drab environments, and the non-existent loot satisfaction. And to be more specific, the game has great sub-stories, the actual main plot is literally bad guys invading the world that you don't deal with until you solve everyone else's problems.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
November 29 2011 22:39 GMT
#26
Um... World of Warcraft? Seems to fit the bill pretty well. Though if you want something fresher you might try the new star wars game, Star Wars: The Old Republic. It's basically a WoW clone set in the starcraft universe. Should run on any pc with the settings set low enough.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
rebuffering
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2436 Posts
November 29 2011 22:53 GMT
#27
TES Morrowind. not exactly fast paced, but fits the rest of the criteria, and frankly one of best games ever made! tonnes of shit to do in that game, i might even re-install it, i miss it so much after raping Skyrim.
http://www.twitch.tv/rebufferingg
Assault_1
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1950 Posts
November 29 2011 22:59 GMT
#28
I played d2 for about 5 years, and titan quest is definitely what you're looking for.
The only reason it's not better than d2 (imo) is because its not balanced for pvp and theres no solid mutliplayer like with b.net (tho i'm not too sure about it's mp, I just played lan)
SkelA
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Macedonia13072 Posts
November 29 2011 23:34 GMT
#29
You should try Planescape Torment . Preety much every RPG game I've tried after playing PT sucks ass. Just everything seems boring after experiencing the best game I've played in my life (excluding BW ofc)

If you want a great storyline, good characters, best dialogs from any game then you should try it. The battle system is the only where the game is not shining but the other aspects are too good to miss playing it.
Stork and KHAN fan till 2012 ...
green.at
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Austria1459 Posts
November 29 2011 23:45 GMT
#30
On November 30 2011 06:35 Kamille wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:33 annul wrote:
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2


What PC from five years ago can run SC2?


my old one, only thing was i couldnt "see" cloaked units.
Inputting special characters into chat should no longer cause the game to crash.
Rayeth
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States883 Posts
November 29 2011 23:50 GMT
#31
You asked for a good action RPG, sadly that genre has all but died on the PC. You have Bastion which is a phenomenal choice. Great controls, and excellent story. With lots of replayability. And that is really the only one that comes to mind.


On consoles there is more choice, but not a ton more. You have the standard Monster Hunter games, but I would really recommend Dark Souls. The combat is very precise and there is excellent PvP and PvE. Lots of people to co-op with in the strange way that the game allows, and lots of interesting lore that is only hinted at. It's a great open world RPG that lets you be who you want to be and kill everyone and everything.

The Innocent shall suffer... big time.
FaiL_SaFe
Profile Joined February 2011
United States104 Posts
November 29 2011 23:58 GMT
#32
On November 30 2011 07:25 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
I would consider knights of the old republic action RPG it's not the same dungeon crawler style that is Diablo 2 but it's an amazing game. Also Titan Quest is a pretty good series. Elder scrolls Morrowind, The Witcher 1 & 2

EDIT: These are all single player experiences well minus Titan Quest. If your looking for something more online Than I am at a loss there Never really tried Titan quest's online feature


Sans the Witcher Series (Which I have heard good things but have never played so I can't really comment). I was actually going to suggest all of these.

KOTOR might in fact be the greatest game ever. KOTOR 2 is still good, not nearly as good as the original but it's still quite a strong game.

Morrowind is, well Morrowind. It's a classic.

A also liked the Titan Quest games. Truth be told, they're a little bit on the generic side of hack and slash games, but that said it's still quite enjoyable. If you liked Diablo 2 it's fairly solid game with a cool skill system that lets you do some fun stuff. I've never tried the multiplayer but it's entirely manageable on the hardest difficulty solo.

Depending on what the specs of your comp is there's a chance you could run Fallout 3. That's another great game.
iSometric
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
2221 Posts
November 30 2011 02:08 GMT
#33
D2 is not bad... Just like Wc3.
strava.com/athletes/zhaodynasty
ChronoCat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
266 Posts
November 30 2011 02:49 GMT
#34
Try out the Ys series. I know there are at least a few titles from this series out for the PC.

I recently tried Ys Origin, which never had an official translation, but a group of people just recently finished a fan translation for it. It's awesome, and runs on my crappy laptop.



In fact, I'm not sure if any of the Ys games out for PC have an official English translation, but I'm pretty damn sure most of them have at least been english-translated by fans.

The game's pretty much Zelda on hyper-speed with more action and less emphasis on puzzles... I think.


Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 08:23:45
November 30 2011 03:58 GMT
#35
Deus Ex/Fallout series... unless you're specifically talking about isometric view RPGs. Diablo 2 is more of a hack n' slash anyways, You're hardly role playing.

For Deus Ex I also recommend you try out The Nameless Mod, which is a 20-30 hour fully voiced mod in the similar vein as the original game.
Logic is Overrated
Fruscainte
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
4596 Posts
November 30 2011 04:30 GMT
#36
On November 30 2011 06:35 Kamille wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:33 annul wrote:
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2


What PC from five years ago can run SC2?


Well, mine, for starters.
Nifoxeli
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Netherlands26 Posts
November 30 2011 10:17 GMT
#37
I have to agree with a lot of people here.
KOTOR is one of the best RPG's I've ever played. You should definitely try this game out.
Morrowind was also an excellent game.
Dont know to much about Titan Quest as I've only played that for about 2 hours but it did seem like a decent RPG.


On November 30 2011 07:39 Osmoses wrote:
Um... World of Warcraft? Seems to fit the bill pretty well. Though if you want something fresher you might try the new star wars game, Star Wars: The Old Republic. It's basically a WoW clone set in the starcraft universe. Should run on any pc with the settings set low enough.


You do realize that not every MMO is clone of WoW right? I've played WoW for 5 years on and off. And I've also played in 2 beta weekends of SWTOR. I can safely say that it isnt a clone. Ofcourse there are quite a bit of similiarities between the two games but in order for the game to be an MMO it has to have certain elements.
There are a lot of things different that make SWTOR a unique game compared to other MMO's.
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
November 30 2011 11:00 GMT
#38
--- Nuked ---
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
17053 Posts
November 30 2011 11:51 GMT
#39
On November 30 2011 06:35 Kamille wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:33 annul wrote:
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2


What PC from five years ago can run SC2?


My five year old laptop can run SC2 :/
Moderator
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
November 30 2011 11:58 GMT
#40
On November 30 2011 06:35 Kamille wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:33 annul wrote:
it sounds like the game you seek is starcraft 2


What PC from five years ago can run SC2?

Every PC from five years ago. SC2 has extremely low system requirements.
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
November 30 2011 12:17 GMT
#41
On November 30 2011 06:56 kafkaesque wrote:
I really don't like PoE.

I have a beta account, and I'd gladly trade this account for a couple of hours of D3 beta.


Dunno why, D3's beta smacks of "average"
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
kafkaesque
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Germany2006 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-30 12:49:47
November 30 2011 12:45 GMT
#42
On November 30 2011 21:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:56 kafkaesque wrote:
I really don't like PoE.

I have a beta account, and I'd gladly trade this account for a couple of hours of D3 beta.


Dunno why, D3's beta smacks of "average"


What strange dream is this? TotalBiscuit responding to my blog? Feels surreal.

But anyways, thanks for all the suggestions, seems like I'll have to at least finally check out KOTOR, don't know why that eluded me for so long. And yeah, I've played Secret of Mana almost as much as D2.

€: Just realized you responded on page one already, how could I have missed that?
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-01 08:37:01
December 01 2011 08:36 GMT
#43
On November 30 2011 19:17 Nifoxeli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 07:39 Osmoses wrote:
Um... World of Warcraft? Seems to fit the bill pretty well. Though if you want something fresher you might try the new star wars game, Star Wars: The Old Republic. It's basically a WoW clone set in the starcraft universe. Should run on any pc with the settings set low enough.

Ofcourse there are quite a bit of similiarities between the two games but in order for the game to be an MMO it has to have certain elements.

I wouldn't have said anything if it weren't for that "quite a bit". "Quite a bit" is another way of saying "Alot". And once you've borrowed "Alot", you're basically copying.

Oh, and obviously I mean the Star Wars universe, not Starcraft
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
3Form
Profile Joined December 2009
United Kingdom389 Posts
December 01 2011 12:32 GMT
#44
Why are people suggesting stuff like KOTOR, Morrowind, Skyrim, Deus Ex etc? They're not Action RPGs.

I'd definitely recommend Titan Quest if you haven't tried it yet OP. It's well polished, still looks good and runs on my netbook so your PC should have no problems. There's also HOURS of playtime there and still plenty of people playing in multiplayer.

Otherwise you probably have to go back a bit further, perhaps to Dungeon Siege 1 and 2, they're worth a look.
Orpheos
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1663 Posts
December 01 2011 14:02 GMT
#45
if you want something very similar to D2(or actually more similar to D1) torchlight is definitely the way to go.
520
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States2822 Posts
December 01 2011 16:54 GMT
#46
On November 30 2011 21:17 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2011 06:56 kafkaesque wrote:
I really don't like PoE.

I have a beta account, and I'd gladly trade this account for a couple of hours of D3 beta.


Dunno why, D3's beta smacks of "average"

To be fair, the Den of Evil/Blood Raven/Dark Woods part of Diablo 2 was pretty "average" too.
Writer
G_G
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada178 Posts
December 01 2011 16:56 GMT
#47
If you haven't played NoX already, it sounds like you would enjoy it.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10868 Posts
December 01 2011 19:05 GMT
#48
Severance - Blade of Darkness

If you can find it. It's pure awesome.
Celial
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
2602 Posts
December 01 2011 19:19 GMT
#49
Oh god Severance. When I was younger, we used to tweak the shit out of the monsters to give them more HP so we could fight them longer. That game is srsly good. And fun. Take a Barbarian or the Amazon for HOURS of freaking fun.
Do not regret. Always forward, never back.
Djeez
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
543 Posts
December 01 2011 20:17 GMT
#50
On December 02 2011 01:56 G_G wrote:
If you haven't played NoX already, it sounds like you would enjoy it.


Hell yeah. It was as a ''waiting'' game before the release of D2, but ended up being such a good title. Very fast paced, 3 completely different classes with 3 different stories. It's pretty straightforward though, but really really fun.
''Watching steppes of war in the gsl would be like watching the dreamhack 1.6 finals start out on fy_iceworld. '' -red_b
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
December 01 2011 22:42 GMT
#51
On December 02 2011 04:19 Celial wrote:
Oh god Severance. When I was younger, we used to tweak the shit out of the monsters to give them more HP so we could fight them longer. That game is srsly good. And fun. Take a Barbarian or the Amazon for HOURS of freaking fun.


Oh shit, that game was awesome. Dragging around weapons you weren't strong enough to use was hilarious.
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
tdt
Profile Joined October 2010
United States3179 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-02 05:23:13
December 02 2011 05:18 GMT
#52
Titan Quest and it's expo was good. You should be able to get them for $5-10 at stream if you keep your eyes peeled. Course it didn't have that dark Gothic demonic artwork as D1&2 but neither does D3. Those were true classics.

Personally since were dreaming about re-creating classics I'd like to see planescape torment redone easily my favorite RPG of all time with best AD&D rule set of all time.
MC for president
casualman
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1198 Posts
December 02 2011 05:31 GMT
#53
Torchlight 2 and Magicka. Torchlight is inspired from Diablo and plays very similarly, and Magicka is an experience on its own when you grab some friends to play co-op. Do it, and you won't look back. You might not even look forward to D3 anymore
GuMiho <3
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
December 02 2011 05:50 GMT
#54
if you're going to use an emulator like people earlier mentioned for secret of mana, play through tales of phantasia (snes), it's a good ARPG series and ToP would work for you. one of my favorite series, actually.
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
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