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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I'd be a fan. I used to watch movies and TV shows with the old CC captioning, even if it was slightly delayed. No hearing problems or whatsoever... I just enjoy reading.
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I'm not sure the technology is there yet, looking at current automated subtitle systems. I might be totally wrong about this however. Regardless I'm all for it, if it's possible.
If you look at Youtube's automated subtitles, about 90% of the words are just flat out wrong compared to what they are saying in the video. The only thing that I could see working at this point is hiring a professional to physically type up the subtitles as they listen to the stream and have a way of implementing them in real time. I know I've seen them do this for other certain broadcasts, don't remember exactly what at the moment though.
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Uh how? This would only work on VODs I believe?
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Live subtitles would be hard i think? But subtitles we be good, even for those able to hear, especially if you've got 2 or 4 streams going on at once
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The fact that there are dead SC2 fans should be enough to want to implement subtitles  I expect it will be kind of tough to figure out though, especially on a live stream (I don't really know how it works on TV).
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On November 15 2011 13:50 Angra wrote:
I'm not sure the technology is there yet. I might be totally wrong about this however. Regardless I'm all for it, if it's possible.
If you look at Youtube's automated subtitles, about 90% of the words are just flat out wrong compared to what they are saying in the video. The only thing that I could see working at this point is hiring a professional to physically type up the subtitles as they listen to the stream and have a way of implementing them in real time. I know they do this for other certain broadcasts, don't remember exactly what at the moment though.
Yeah CC captioning is exceptionally difficult to get right without human interaction given that other sounds will interfere as well (i.e. game sounds, music, keyboard sounds). I have no clue how Youtube is even able to get close to being sometimes right on their captioning.
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interesting, but I don't think this is a major concern for tournament organizers (which I am sure you already know). I totally agree with this however.
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United States2095 Posts
Ahh... Well then I geuss the question is just how much is it to have someone do live subtitles in person. Then if its worth the cost. I wonder if its being looked into. I would really like some subtitles and I think e-sports will eventually need them. I geuss the question is just when and who will be first to do it. Its not a "Huge" deal, but its something small that I think would generate a lot of good publicity for the organization that does this. Some good points though that this woudln't be easy and the youtube thing is probably impossible to use for this yea. Interesting points though!
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On November 15 2011 13:50 Angra wrote:
The only thing that I could see working at this point is hiring a professional to physically type up the subtitles as they listen to the stream and have a way of implementing them in real time. I know I've seen them do this for other certain broadcasts, don't remember exactly what at the moment though.
I don't see this working at all (in real time). The time to translate cannot be faster than the broadcast itself, so the speed of which you translate will always be slower than the actual broadcast.
This means you need a pretty big delay, especially for long broadcasts.
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You can live subtitle casts the same way as TV I bet. It would require a stenographer (court room typist) which would obviously add to the cost of the event. I'm not sure if the programs used for steaming would support it though, you would have to talk to JTV. And as stated about adding text to VODs is probably very doable, but that's a lot of typing to do.
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If it existed, I would use them. But I don't think it's feasible for starcraft. Starcraft casters talk a lot faster and use big words (like say mutalisk) a lot more than the casters for sports that do use real time CC. Even CBS broadcasting a football game only picks up about half of what the commentators are saying. I'd be surprised if a professional could get 1/5 of a starcraft cast typed out.
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I got an even BETTER idea!!. What if we had a constant image of Tasteless down at the bottom right, and in that square he could preform sign language.... Fuck it, have the text as well, but don't scrap out Tasteless. Owh man, I'm not even joking, this is a wonderful idea Sheth Pheth.
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On November 15 2011 13:56 Satyric wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 13:50 Angra wrote:
The only thing that I could see working at this point is hiring a professional to physically type up the subtitles as they listen to the stream and have a way of implementing them in real time. I know I've seen them do this for other certain broadcasts, don't remember exactly what at the moment though. I don't see this working at all (in real time). The time to translate cannot be faster than the broadcast itself, so the speed of which you translate will always be slower than the actual broadcast. This means you need a pretty big delay, especially for long broadcasts.
I know I've seen it before, though like I said I can't remember what kind of broadcast it was. It's like people who actually have the profession of typing what they hear extremely fast etc. and it basically works in real time, where what they type instantly goes on the screen letter for letter. No idea how rare/expensive someone who does that for a living is, though.
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United States2095 Posts
Ok, going to sleep for real. I geuss the only viable way is to use a court room typist or someone else who would be able to type very fast. And we don't know if the streaming platform would be able to handle it at all.. Hm,.. Still something to think about though. I'm sure there are other ways to make it easier for those who are deaf as well? Maybe having a sign language stream? I wonder if that would be a cheaper option then having the words typed. And I doubt it would get many watchers, huh.... I wonder when the first sign language stream will take place. At least I know I've never seen one!
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I don't think putting sub on live cast are that easy and low cost. But putting them on VOD sounds really good and very doable(still gonna cost extra though).
SC2 is quite self-explain by itself (I mean if you understand how the game works, you will know what going on even w.o any sound). The main attractive point of casting is it brings more excitement into the game. So if you are going to read it, it brings no excitement whatsoever.
My point being, even for deaf people you still can understand most things going on w.o any sound at all. Sound/casters are there to bring a little bit of info and EXCITEMENT but you can't feel that with reading the caption.
I can see this would work on premium VOD services but not on live cast or free VOD.
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Glad to see a pro player talk about this. I come from a family with a deaf brother and father, so I know the struggles that come with it.
As for live captioning, I think it would be really tough, unless you got someone who had a very high and accurate words per minute typing skill. I really think that some tournaments should at least test this out, see how it works and work from there. It's nice to see people caring for the less fortunate, even in eSports it makes a huge difference even discussing it for those people I'm sure.
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I think it is expensive and real time would be difficult I imagine. having someone type that fast for that long would be hard. Also casters talking over each other and interrupting would make it even more difficult. I would like to see it done eventually though. would let some people enjoy it who otherwise would only be able to watch and not hear it.
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Systems like Google Talk and Siri are quite intelligent. I think the technology for voice to text is there but implementation might be an obstacle.
I think as a major improvement for the accessibility of esports, it should happen fairly soon. But I'm not quite prepared to whine at people or speak with my dollar.
Real time is out of the question. Given how much verbage goes on in heavy action, expecting someone to instantly take it all to text is unreasonable IMO.
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there are ccs on live tv though...so why not live stream? i think it's a great idea. if not for normal streams then at least for events like mlg.
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I don't think the subtitles need to be 1:1, at least in the first trial. Someone can just highlight points the commentators make in very brief sentences, and maybe act as the third text commentator.
An example, Day[9] goes on a little digression by saying how getting a gas at a certain timing is optimal for Zerg on this map yadda yadda. The typist would simply write "This gas timing is optimal for Zerg on this map" or something.
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Ridiculously hard to manage in 'real time' and almost impossible to implement. A nice idea however.
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The thing about automatic subtitles and SC2 casts is there are soooo many words and phrases (not to mention player names) specific to our community that would get totally butchered by any automatic subtitles. Probably to the point that reading the subtitles would only confuse you more than not having them at all.
Improving it so that it could be useful for SC2 would require a ton of work. Hiring a really fast typist familiar with SC2 for live transcription of casts would probably be the easiest step for organizations like MLG.
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I'm partially Deaf and i think this is a great idea just in general.
we should start out with Vods really. Live broadcasts would be way too hard with the change in topics so fast.
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On November 15 2011 13:47 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Hey everyone,
I'm about to go to sleep and just wanted to ask a question. How much effort do you think it would be to put subtitles in casts? I wonder how much it would cost MLG to just add on the stream subtitles? I suggest this for those who can't watch with sound on, or for people who are deaf. Anyway, this isn't too much of a poll or a question, but I'd really like to see something done on this matter.
I don't really see any reason why there isn't some sort of Subtitles already on most casts. If its expensive I can understand it. Even on streams I wonder if there is a way to add a subtitle feature? I guess I need to talk to Twitch.tv about it as well. I know youtube has some sort of instant subtitling that is done automatically. Something like this would really help out those who can't hear casts.
Is this something that you think is important community? Or would we rather wait a while on this and work on other things first? I'm honestly curious how all of you feel this rates up there. I'd really like to see this implemented ASAP in most big tournaments. Lets spread our product out and this sort of thing will really appeal to a certain crowd.
Anyway.. TL:DR "Subtitles for deaf people and those who just enjoy subtitles. How important to you and should big tournaments use them? For example MLG."
I only ask this, because I've never heard or thought about this, but someone PM'ed me asking me to bring up this subject because they are deaf. Now I think its a valid concern. Thoughts?
really good point, hopefully something can be done.
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I agree that the best bet would be to put them on VODs.. It wouldn't be exactly same, but man, that would be one hell of a step
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I think it's a great idea.
That being said I have no idea how difficult/expensive it would be to implement it, but I'd love to see some captioned action.
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Idt voice recognition software would work well for this like it does on many youtube vids, because all of the starcraft terminology and jargon would likely throw it off.
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Well it couldn't possibly hurt to try on vods. Would be nice for an established tournament to try it and see the community response of it.
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On November 15 2011 13:50 flamewheel wrote:
I'd be a fan. I used to watch movies and TV shows with the old CC captioning, even if it was slightly delayed. No hearing problems or whatsoever... I just enjoy reading.
you were just jealous their voices were never horse
what i really want to see is the youtube auto subtitle technology used that shits hilarious. obviously proper subtitles for deaf people too
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On November 15 2011 14:23 ClysmiC wrote:
Idt voice recognition software would work well for this like it does on many youtube vids, because all of the starcraft terminology and jargon would likely throw it off.
Couldn't you just add in as much starcraft vocab as possible into the database? There aren't too many words.
Also I think this would be possible for a fast typist to do live, I realise it is a difficult task, but it is possible. I'm a really slow typist and I've sometimes relayed what commentators are saying to my friends via msn or something when their net can't stream.
If people remember, for a brief period of time, there was a user called "abascus" who live translated the korean commentators for bw in stream chats. If someone can do that while translating, I don't see why someone who knows about starcraft and can type fast couldn't do this.
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Would be wonderfull with subtitles!
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
On November 15 2011 13:53 sugatooth wrote:The fact that there are dead SC2 fans should be enough to want to implement subtitles I expect it will be kind of tough to figure out though, especially on a live stream (I don't really know how it works on TV).
Umm..... I think you meant to say deaf?
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I think it would only require someone with good fast typing skills.
Is that how it would be done? I don't think we could trust automated with excited casters etc.
How delayed is the broadcast now?
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I would enjoy subtitles, I can't always watch with sound.
However I'm not sure how difficult it would be to integrate them into the stream and to find someone who could do these at a reasonable price.
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One day this will happen. The next day, Klazart will come back.
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I think it's completely possible if there are people who are willing and able to do it, and stream features that would let it work.
I remember reading this thread from a few days ago
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284166
People like FAAAwesome, and others trained in shorthand, would be who to see about live events.
It would also add more opportunities to people interested in non-game related roles in esports ^^
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CCs happen because there are being written by a stenographer, right?
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On November 15 2011 14:33 Suc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:23 ClysmiC wrote:
Idt voice recognition software would work well for this like it does on many youtube vids, because all of the starcraft terminology and jargon would likely throw it off. Couldn't you just add in as much starcraft vocab as possible into the database? There aren't too many words. Also I think this would be possible for a fast typist to do live, I realise it is a difficult task, but it is possible. I'm a really slow typist and I've sometimes relayed what commentators are saying to my friends via msn or something when their net can't stream. If people remember, for a brief period of time, there was a user called "abascus" who live translated the korean commentators for bw in stream chats. If someone can do that while translating, I don't see why someone who knows about starcraft and can type fast couldn't do this.
subtitle typists dont type using a qwerty keyboard, they use a special keyboard where the keys represent sounds rather than letters. thats how live tv has subtitle support
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype
etc
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On November 15 2011 13:50 flamewheel wrote:
I'd be a fan. I used to watch movies and TV shows with the old CC captioning, even if it was slightly delayed. No hearing problems or whatsoever... I just enjoy reading.
I thought I was the only one who did this...
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Didn't a progamer recently get licensed for stenotype machine? Hit him up for korean subs
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On November 15 2011 16:57 SpoR wrote:
Didn't a progamer recently get licensed for stenotype machine? Hit him up for korean subs
MLG.FireFist gogo!
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Can't you just delay the broadcast by 30 seconds to add the CC and then broadcast to a specific deaf channel?
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I think big tournaments should definitely do this. If I remember correctly, all BLIZZCON streams were provided with subtitles (english and korean if I'm not mistaken).
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I sometimes watch without sound for different reasons, liek work. And I think its a really good idea. I would diffently love it, if its possible. But it isnt the most important thing for me, afterall I just wanna watch the games, with or without sound, but it would diffently be a nice thing, when you're a work for sure.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
Its'a always possible to add subtitles for VODs, and I'm not entirely sure why tourneys don't do it
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I agree that subtitles would enhance the experience for many viewers. I would like to see some major tournaments consider and implement this!
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On November 15 2011 14:00 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Ok, going to sleep for real. I geuss the only viable way is to use a court room typist or someone else who would be able to type very fast. And we don't know if the streaming platform would be able to handle it at all.. Hm,.. Still something to think about though. I'm sure there are other ways to make it easier for those who are deaf as well? Maybe having a sign language stream? I wonder if that would be a cheaper option then having the words typed. And I doubt it would get many watchers, huh.... I wonder when the first sign language stream will take place. At least I know I've never seen one!
Having it live has numerous numerous problems as others have pointed out-- if we wanted it live, it would have to be a pretty problematic captioning-- even the best speech recognition software has a lot of issues, especially in such an acoustically diverse setting like a cast. People have also mentioned game sounds interfering but if it was implemented at say, MLGs side, it could be rigged such that the caster audio goes through a separate channel which gets captioned before it gets remixed with the game sounds, but it would have to be handled on the event side of things. This would help, but again, it would be a problematic captioning, like how sometimes you see news or sports captions in a bar and they mangle the words to all hell.
Having it on VODs would be a possibility too-- it would take a pretty significant time investment by some pretty dedicated volunteers though. I've never done captioning, but I have done quite a bit of transcribing for research, and two party conversation takes a very long time to transcribe-- Just getting the words right probably takes 10-30 minutes of work for every minute of audio, though for captions we might not be so concerned about getting it absolutely perfect, so I could see it taking less, (maybe as fast as 5 minutes per minute? not sure).
None of these issues make it any less relevant though, I think its an awesome idea.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I don't the the tech is there, certainly Youtube's system is horrible, but its a good topic to discuss. The question really is whether there is a demand for it.
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I'd like to have a cc feature despite the errors. Good for deaf viewers and others who prefer to go out of their way to read.
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A year or two ago, I did come across one or two hearing impaired individuals who had some sort of voice-to-text module that managed to transcribe organic chemistry lectures in real time. It was surprisingly accurate, at least in comparison to what we are used to seeing with YouTube/etc, although there were a few seconds of delay. The technology is probably still esoteric, so I'd imagine that the initial cost of implementing this for live SC2 would be substantial. Also, there's the additional programming needed to enable recognition of SC2 specific vocabulary. And as mentioned before, the captioning hardware would have to be implemented between each caster's microphone and the audio mixer to prevent issues with interference between casters and with the in-game sounds.
I would imagine that it might actually be more cost efficient, at least in the short run, to hire a stenographer or two and train them in the appropriate vocabulary until technology progresses enough that costs start to go down and availability goes up.
I'd like to have CCs, especially when watching multiple streams at once, e.g., MLG Red and Blue streams. It'd be great having the sound on for one of the games while keeping up to date with the commentary on the other streams via subtitles.
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I think they should be definitely, it will benefit everyone, but they should be optional of course (turn on turn off button) I personally hate them...
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On November 16 2011 08:17 Corsica wrote:
I think they should be definitely, it will benefit everyone, but they should be optional of course (turn on turn off button) I personally hate them... but it is our goal to make SCII as accessible as possible.
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Liquid`Sheth United States. November 15 2011 13:56.
Ahh... Well then I geuss the question is just how much is it to have someone do live subtitles in person. Then if its worth the cost. I wonder if its being looked into.
I actually have a bit of experience with this. I go to the Rochester Institute of Technology and we have a college called the National Technical Institute for the Deaf. The student population is like....I think 10% deaf? Maybe less. But there are a lot of deaf people in my classes. All of our lectures have sign language translators.
What's really important to this thread is that all of the live events on campus (concerts, comedians, guest lectures, in class lectures) have both sign language translators and a c-print typist. These c-print typists will live caption anything. I've seen plenty of comedians have a ton of fun with the typists. Like something foul only to have the typist put up in CC, " I can't translate that". There's usually projectors in the room that will have the video of what's going on PLUS the closed captioning.
I'm currently on internship away from RIT but I could look into this if there's really an interest.
TL:DR - There's definitely a way to get live closed captioning. I'm just not sure how expensive it would be to hire someone to do it. I don't know anything about VOD closed captioning.
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I was so used to reading danish subtitles on all the american movies, that I now miss it when watching a movie in english - Not danish subtitles though, If i have the option to chose, I would rather watch an english movie with english subtitles, just because i got so used to it back then.. I cannot stand danish subtitles though, because even though something is perfectly translated, you often lose the essence of how something is said in the process
Im not sure about it for a SC2 cast though.. If it was there, and they were good quality, I would definitely try it out
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On November 15 2011 13:53 sugatooth wrote:The fact that there are dead SC2 fans should be enough to want to implement subtitles I expect it will be kind of tough to figure out though, especially on a live stream (I don't really know how it works on TV).
HELL YES!
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I think if they made this an option for vods it would be great but I'm not quite sure how well it would go over in live games.
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Well, I have zero experience with any kind of deaf/hearing impaired person, but I think it would just be to hard to put into a live SC2 game. If you go word-for-word what the casters are saying the typist better be damn fast or you miss stuff, and if you go with quick summaries, you lose some of, if not all of, the personalities of the casters - which in my opinion is the most important aspect of a caster or caster duo. However. in a VoD it would be really cool because you would be able to add in subtitles word-for-word and not miss anything important to the cast. Anyways just my 2 cents on the subject.
Edit: <3 Sheth
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Just do it the way Closed Captioning works. Or hell, hire a stenographer to write it all down as it comes and post to the stream. It would work similarly to overlays, just editing in real time. Hell, you could probably just use a text file as an overlay, make the background transparent, and mask off the parts of the stream you don't want to cover.
Ugh, if I had access to a streaming program I could probably figure out a way to do it.
Here's something explaining captioning I found on the googs, http://transendia.com/tag/real-time-captioning/ The text on screen idea is kinda lame, but could probably be turned into an overlay without too much of an issue.
EDIT: one way or another you'd need to have a stenographer or someone else who types very quickly to handle it all in real time, and you would not at all be able to get every comment made by the casters in the stream.
I'd highly suggest starting with something small, maybe typing out some notes on a stream to get it working, figure out if you'd have a decent amount of people willing to watch that portion of the stream, and then maybe making the splash into that world during a showmatch, or something that you could reasonably generate huge viewership. Hell you might be able to get the captioning sponsored.
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Would the viability of close captioning be improved if there were a short delay? For the purpose of discussion I propose a 20s delay. For people who type quickly or who have experience typing subtitles, would this be a sufficient delay to type out the crucial information into subtitles for the hearing impaired? For those who aren't hearing impaired, would a 20s delay to the stream "ruin" the live experience?
In Canada, there was a hockey commentator who was notorious for making racy remarks. The CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) put a 7-second delay on live casts so that producers could cut the sound if the commentator said something which wasn't politically correct. It is my opinion that hockey was not ruined for Canadians at this point. It is important to note that he only analyzed the game between periods and the live action was not put on any sort of delay that I know of.
Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2004/02/06/cherry040206.html
I would gladly take a short delay if that helped the hearing impaired enjoy live events as much as I do.
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On November 17 2011 09:14 Fuhrmaaj wrote:Would the viability of close captioning be improved if there were a short delay? For the purpose of discussion I propose a 20s delay. For people who type quickly or who have experience typing subtitles, would this be a sufficient delay to type out the crucial information into subtitles for the hearing impaired? For those who aren't hearing impaired, would a 20s delay to the stream "ruin" the live experience? In Canada, there was a hockey commentator who was notorious for making racy remarks. The CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) put a 7-second delay on live casts so that producers could cut the sound if the commentator said something which wasn't politically correct. It is my opinion that hockey was not ruined for Canadians at this point. It is important to note that he only analyzed the game between periods and the live action was not put on any sort of delay that I know of. Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2004/02/06/cherry040206.htmlI would gladly take a short delay if that helped the hearing impaired enjoy live events as much as I do.
Very considerate opinion coming from you. I as well think that a delay will have to be the method used to enable subtitles in live streams. It really is not that detrimental to the viewers, and I also would gladly have the delay even just to have the opportunity to read the subtitles, because I tend to have that habit. If this method does not cost too much, corporations should look into it and find a suitable way to effectively add subtitles to streams.
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Probably would be easier/smarter to have a professional doing sign language (had a woman do it in one of my college courses because there were 4-5 deaf students. ) and then giving deaf people the option to view the "sign language stream" which would work kind of like the on player webcam in the bottom.
I know this only apply to people who are deaf and not people who are just watching with no sound. But insta-subbing sounds pretty hard if it has to be done by hand and not automated with software.
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If it can be done for live sport broadcasts, why not Starcraft? The delay is obviously acceptable there (given lack of other options, I suppose), so as long as everyone was aware that there's a short delay between the action and the transcription, it's fine.
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Would be good have sub for others languages also, i can understand english but some ppl cant and they kinda lost the interest because of that they cant rly understand what the casters ar saying and bla bla ...
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EPT
