• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:11
CEST 11:11
KST 18:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou16Weekly Cups (Oct 13-19): Clem Goes for Four0BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80
StarCraft 2
General
Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Weekly Cups (March 17-23): Clem Bounces Back DreamHack Open 2013 revealed The New Patch Killed Mech!
Tourneys
$1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 INu's Battles #13 - ByuN vs Zoun Tenacious Turtle Tussle Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
Is there anyway to get a private coach? BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BSL Season 21 OGN to release AI-upscaled StarLeague from Feb 24
Tourneys
300$ 3D!Community Brood War Super Cup #4 [ASL20] Semifinal B Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Current Meta Roaring Currents ASL final [I] Funny Protoss Builds/Strategies BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Chess Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Men's Fashion Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1092 users

Ladder Fear: or how I learned to stop worrying

Blogs > Durp
Post a Reply
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
October 31 2011 02:32 GMT
#1
And Love to Macro.

In my first blog entry, I wrote about how StarCraft 2 changed my life. This time I've decided to take a look at the evolution of my gameplay into a macro player - through my massing of team games.

disclaimer:
+ Show Spoiler +
I do not think playing team games is the way to make you a better 1v1 ladder player. I also don't think the way I went about learning to macro is the best way to effectively learn the concept. However, I know a lot of players who suffer from ladder anxiety, and I'm hoping some of the concepts I'll talk about can help those people in particular, who have not learned (or don't feel comfortable learning) them the best way- by massing 1v1s


When I started playing the ladder in the beta, the game was a lot faster and more unforgiving. Speed reapers, super early 4gates, 2gate zealot rushes, steppes of war, faster stim, 1 supply roaches and the like made climbing the ladder very difficult. The better I got, the more likely it was I ran into players who understood the game and could trounce me and abuse my deficiencies.

After losing constantly, watching tons of GSL and reading every page I could of the strategy forum, I started to have an understanding that was greater than my abilities. I know for players in the lower leagues, this is a horrible feeling. Constantly getting in positions where you know you need to do something, but you haven't set yourself up to do it (getting my reactored starport for colossus in TvP stands out personally) is really frustrating and demoralizing.

I loved this game so much, but losing constantly in ladder games was getting pretty upsetting, so I decided to play team games.

Team games provided me with some help learning with some basic concepts, and it was a much more forgiving learning environment.
For example, if I missed a forcefield on my ramp, I had teammates who would eventually show up to help me clean up a mess. In a 1v1 PvZ, I would have just lost and typed GG. With the ability to survive after taking serious damage, I started to learn how to come back from difficult positions. I also was able to learn the importance of pulling my probes.

This is a concept most low level players I play against with in house 1v1s struggle with. They don't realize the power of pulling workers. I don't mean to encourage you to use them in fights, but when there are just a few units in your base, and you have minimal forces, you'll see how helpful that probe surround is. For me, random 3v3s saw a lot of 10 pools and other fast cheeses. As a protoss player, you can hold most cheeses with a standard opener if you execute properly with pulling probes (walling in, chronoboost, etc), and seeing these frequently gave me a lot of practice dealing with them. You're also going to see most of the various 8-minute 1 base all ins each race has to offer, and you'll get used to how many units you'll be facing.

Now this happens in 1v1, don't get me wrong. And it happens a lot. The difference is your game isn't automatically over if you handle it wrong. It'll be a slow unpleasant grind, but it isn't over. You haven't lost. This is the problem for lots of people; they don't like losing when they're trying to learn. This was my problem.

Once I was able to get my basic builds underway safely, I started getting to see what macro was like. I could get to two base pretty safely in team games, make my colossus, max out and push. It was awesome. Once I had my deathball going, I was able to engage and abuse the tactics vods and TL had given. It was not uncommon in 2v2s for me to kill both opponents max armies while only losing 10-20 supply in the process (I miss the amulet so much </3).

The sheer quantity of units engaged in each battle in a regular team game can get pretty ridiculous. As a Protoss, a concept I learned in my team games was zoning. I started to see armies that were larger than mine, and I knew I couldn't fight them all at once. But I did know my forcefields could cut the army in half, or create a pocket of their units perfect for my ally's units. At a certain point. This is a concept you will learn in 1v1s as well. I found, personally, that team games just drilled the concept more frequently, as every single engagement required this tactic simply due to the number of enemy units, and frequency of enemy harass/attacks. When I figured this out, we would get the lead, and often progress from there to win.

As my macro started getting better, I was realizing I was mining my main out much faster, and now my natural was already saturated before I moved my probes from my mined out main there. Shit, I thought. I need to expand. This was getting frustrating. My macro was getting better than these games allowed for me. When me and my teammates defended one of those 8 minute 4v4 all ins after my FE opening, I knew I could expand after it because my opponents had to expand for themselves. The problem was that in most team game maps, there are no safe thirds.

At a certain point, it occurred to me that only in 1v1 maps would I be able to find a relatively safe third. But in 1v1s, there was no ally to help my fight. Okay, I thought, there was also no ally to defend my opponent.

I decided I'd try 1v1 ladder out again. I found that most of the platinum league players I was playing were pretty bad. I was trading in my favour in every engagement, and I now knew that I could expand afterwards. I started winning a lot of games.

I knew how to FFE for the few maps that allowed for it in PvZ, and I knew 2gate robo for banshee prone PvT. And I had my 4gate build for PvP. My PvZ wasn't great, but if they ever went hatch first I could apply my understood 4gate build there too. Remember, at that point 4gate was the build you needed to use to defend it yourself. In any PPvXX team game you were guaranteed to see double 4gates. I got into diamond league on the back of this, and I was happy.

Then I hit a wall, and this is the reason you'll see a lot of people with diamond/masters team games and gold/platinum 1v1s. This is also the reason I believe you should always learn to macro and your mechanics in the 1v1 setting. I knew how to get beyond two base, but I didn't really know how to play it. I could get my third base up and running, have my colossus production and my upgrades going, but I'd still float lots of minerals. I'd never really learned how to increase my infrastructure with my economy. I also found that as players got better, they too could abuse the difference in maps. Suddenly zergs were taking super fast thirds against my FFE, and I didn't know to respond to that. I'd get stuck in my base to ling infestor, and lose every single PvZ trying to secure and defend three bases.

PvP got patched, and suddenly I had to use different builds. I knew how to do all the variant 1/2/3gate robos, and the various stargate or twilight builds, but I didn't know how to play them. When I went DTs and didn't win me the game, people were countering and killing me. I didn't know when to time my blink stalker pushes, and I'd constantly go from in the lead with map control to somehow being overrun by some ranged colossi. What the fuck man! Now I had two of three matchups I could not win.

This takes me to where I'm at now. I have pretty decent mechanics at this point. When I'm not microing intensely, I usually keep my minerals and gas down below 400. I have started to get a better understanding of how to play all the matchups and the various timings. I still am looking for that four base macro game, but I've learned when I need to be attacking, and that not every game needs to be spent sitting back at home defending. I'm still having a hard time climbing the ladder, as I'm currently sporting a near 80% win rate in PvT with most likely a sub .250 record in both PvP and PvZ. I attribute this directly to my lack of understanding in those two matchups, which as I've tried to explain is a fall out from only playing team games for most of my first 500 or so games played and not truly learning the flow of 1v1s. My PvT luckily benefited from my beta time playing terran. Oh, and observers are pretty good.

I've come to understand that I need to play more games so that I can learn these matchups better, and to perfect my mechanics. This has been a difficult process, as it's been disheartening losing in 2/3 of my matchups, but this leads to my point of this blog post:

When I ladder now, I realize that every game I'm seeing something I haven't seen before, and I realize that this is a nuance in the matchup that I have to experience in order to be a better player. Every build I'm playing, even if I've done it hundreds of times in team games, has a different timing in the 1v1 environment. There are subtleties (like where scouting overlords are sent, positions for proxy gateway/cannon rushes, drop timings) that sure, will irritate me when I lose to them, but I'm learning when to expect them, and how to handle them the next time that I do. This was the mentality I want to stress. Every time you lose, you're actually gaining something. It's a warped concept, but it's one that people like Day9 try to stress often.

The reason you're not laddering is that winning feels great and losing sucks, and you're afraid you're going to lose. But you must remember, you aren't really learning anything from a win and that it's not what is going to make you a better player.

Your victory can be attributed to their mistakes just as much as it can be to what you've done. But when you lose, it's always because you've done something wrong to learn from. There may be several mistakes in your gameplay, but you'll realize at least one (likely the one that lost you the game), and you'll try to not make it again. It could be something micro intensive like forcefielding, macro based like creep spread, or timing based like saving/using scans, but it's something you'll remember to work on or work into your gameplay. Now that it's stuck out in your mind, you may pay more attention to it or remember to do it, because you're reminded of that mistake by the times you've lost to it. Each game you'll remember this skill/tactic, and it will become part of your natural gameplay instincts. This is what will make you a better player, which I something I believe most players are striving to become.
Personal addendum + Show Spoiler +
Every time you lose to a cheese rush, you have learned what doesn't work. Whether it be a misclick, not pulling probes, not chronoboosting, etc, you'll realize what you need to do to avoid it next time. (example: Every protoss knows that once you've had the metalopolis natural PvP cannon rush done on you to in turn scout there every time in PvP) Now when I face early pool nonsense I know it's beatable, and I know that I've inherited a free win if I play the way I know how to. I've faced enough early cheeses that I have learned how to beat it. This is another thing you gain every time you lose to a cheese: More experience on how to beat it
I'm a pretty big believer that rage against cheese is just a sign of a whiny, lazy person. There are obviously some instances (like 8 pool on Tal Darim ZvP last scout) that you can't do anything about, but if you have a hard time with cheese, go to the practice partner thread and find someone to play it out with you. Practicing holding cheese is about 5-6 minutes each game, and is a really easy process. If you're mad about how hard it is to hold, stop posting whining about it, and go practice with someone until you can. There's a reason the pros hold it off.


Ladder fear exists because you don't like losing. It took me a whole load of team games, and a StarCraft gameplay epiphany to change my mindset and overcome it, and I stress it's important to understand that losing can be a good thing! Losing is something that will teach you for next time, and will eventually make you a better player. This is a good lesson for life as well. You can make mistakes, but they are things you will learn from, and you can come out of them a better person.


...unless you're in bronze league. Then you should probably just kill yourself.



****
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
October 31 2011 02:39 GMT
#2
"...unless you're in bronze league. Then you should probably just kill yourself."

What a way to finish a blog post. Oh man. I've got a new sig.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Meteora.GB
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2479 Posts
October 31 2011 02:45 GMT
#3
Nice blog. Team games isn't the most ideal to learn but its definitely much more relaxing knowing that you have someone to cover your ass if you did something wrong, making it a more fun and enjoyable experience. Not very ideal for 1v1 but you can work on things like macro and shit.

I always get ladder anxiety because I don't want to lose or do poorly in ladder. Most of my games are actually pretty bad; with me underestimating my opponents most of the time only to have them cheese me or play mind games. I need to really learn how to deal with it; because I've lost games because I went on tilt after say a baneling bust, when I should have won it.
DystopiaX
Profile Joined October 2010
United States16236 Posts
October 31 2011 02:46 GMT
#4
Also read as: A personal testament and really long post that just supports White-Ra's famous saying: No GG, no skill.

As for ladder fear being a product of fear of losing- ofc it is. Thought that was obvious. When anyone says they have ladder fear it's cause they read/hear about how hard SC is, and how good/precise you have to be to play it, then get scared and discouraged when they do lose, precisely cause they're used to being able to do SOMETHING in most other games well (in shooters still getting kills if you go negative, etc.), but in SC if you don't know what you're doing you'll get dominated for something as small as not walling off your base. The high skill ceiling in SC means that when players play, they think "oh, I'll never be as good as ____ pro" or "I'll never get out of Bronze league", and the thought of them pumping hours into a game with no tangible results scares them away from playing.
Anktious
Profile Joined September 2010
United States190 Posts
October 31 2011 02:48 GMT
#5
Awesome, I felt the same way about team games and why I started laddering in 1v1 again. Now I know why!
On January 23 2009 04:38 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I hate it when i sit at my computer and post on this forum when suddenly my dick launches out of my pants and makes me type incorrectly.. starts mashing ont h legnskzsnmklbf oh fuck there we go again.
SpoR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1542 Posts
October 31 2011 02:48 GMT
#6
No offense, but why is there a thread about ladder fear like every day? A moderator wrote one fairly recently as well.

Top 5 Threads in blogs:
Girl/relationship related
Ladder fear
Going pro
Moving up in ranks
I'm going to do [insert goal here] (but never accomplish it)
A man is what he thinks about all day long.
CarelessPride
Profile Joined March 2011
United States146 Posts
October 31 2011 04:08 GMT
#7
Almost everything–all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure–these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart - steve jobs.
use theses words as inspiration. this helped me with my fear of laddering. In a harsh way no1 cares if u win or lose even if ur grandmaster theres always people who belittle you in skill. lets say ur masters, why would you be afraid to lose? whos gonna look at ur match history and go WTF FUCK YOU YOU SHIT BRO YOU SHIT. no1s gonna be proud of you no1s gonna be disapointed in you BUT you. just click the search button =) itld get easier
ene13
Profile Joined February 2011
50 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-31 05:00:17
October 31 2011 04:56 GMT
#8
Yeah people just need to chill the fuck out with all the going pro/ ladder fear stuff.
Its just a game, and you're all making it something it was never intended to be, some kind of extreme test of mental aptitude that proves you are a superior human being with a 15 inch wiener

And if you have a vision of going pro in the future, then realize that if you do devote yourself to being an sc2 pro, you will definitely not be a "pro" IRL.
ssartor
Profile Joined February 2011
United States129 Posts
October 31 2011 11:56 GMT
#9
On October 31 2011 11:46 DystopiaX wrote:
Also read as: A personal testament and really long post that just supports White-Ra's famous saying: No GG, no skill.


I thought it was "more gg more skill"
"If you don't know, the thing to do is not to get scared, but to learn." — Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)
SSeoni
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
139 Posts
October 31 2011 13:49 GMT
#10
you've motivated me found lots of thread in teamliquid but this one kinda make sense to me. thanks
씨니
Durp
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada3117 Posts
October 31 2011 21:55 GMT
#11
On October 31 2011 20:56 ssartor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 31 2011 11:46 DystopiaX wrote:
Also read as: A personal testament and really long post that just supports White-Ra's famous saying: No GG, no skill.


I thought it was "more gg more skill"

It was in fact more gg, more skill.

This was WhiteRa's message in the StarNation Anaheim teaser
SOOOOOooooOOOOooooOOOOoo Many BANELINGS!!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 49m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 165
OGKoka 164
mcanning 46
StarCraft: Brood War
hero 2083
firebathero 457
Leta 321
Hyun 256
Killer 206
Tasteless 203
PianO 111
Soma 110
ToSsGirL 83
ZerO 33
[ Show more ]
Aegong 30
Sharp 27
Mini 25
Sacsri 18
Mong 1
Dota 2
XaKoH 328
XcaliburYe185
canceldota75
League of Legends
JimRising 617
Counter-Strike
olofmeister938
shoxiejesuss773
Stewie2K316
Other Games
summit1g7900
ceh9536
WinterStarcraft384
B2W.Neo285
Hui .150
Mew2King64
Trikslyr15
ZerO(Twitch)1
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick645
Counter-Strike
PGL260
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 31
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV472
League of Legends
• Jankos1513
• Lourlo773
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
49m
OSC
6h 49m
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
13h 49m
The PondCast
1d
OSC
1d 2h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Online Event
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
CrankTV Team League
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.