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On October 25 2011 13:49 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +
They get turned in written in green gel pen, they don’t have a phone number/email address, they leave the availability box blank or with confusing check marks (I need specific times in these boxes, which I think is obvious), they don’t have any work history, they’re not 18, they’re in high school, they leave the reference section blank (or list their mother), write the word “varried” where it says minimum salary desired (they mean “varied”) … My complaints are endless. ENDLESS.
I think this is the biggest hump you need to jump over. Yeah, they do sound like snotty young kids, we all were once, right? But I also noticed that you didn't put a single thing you were looking for in an applicant. Is it because you're looking for who can spell the word "varied" the fastest or who has the best color pen? I'm not being condescending, but showing you where you are setting yourself up to be disappointed. If you don't set what you are looking for, the faults or issues of people will be move obvious and more bothersome. Do you give a shit if someone is immature if they can sell like a beast and do the math fucking fast? I sure as hell wouldn't and you probably don't. Be clear when you set conditions or standards, stuff like: hard-working, diligent, not an immature brat, aren't very good because they're broad or difficult to assess before or even during the job. What you have is cheap labor: you have desperate kids willing to do tedious jobs for little pay. The best way to keep them working productively is to make the experience less about work and the ends (paycheck) and more about a collaborative effort in improving and making the place awesome. A job is a job, if they hate it, you can't change that, but you can put less focus on the actual work and more focus on relations with co-workers, lunch/dinner time/breaks, atmosphere/music of the store. Don't be their friend, but be flexible. Firm, but not bossy. Human, but keep the employee/employer separation confirmed. You probably know all this since it's your business (duhh), but it doesn't hurt to reaffirm the above, right? What's easy about your applicants is that they're young and thus easily impressionable. The first week and they either hate or love the job and will live on that guideline or view for a long time (and if they love it, they will continue to act in a way that makes it lovely for others). I mean, look at their complaints, they're so trivial that you can easily fix or assure that it doesn't happen (for most reasonable adolescents, lolol). You already know you can't change people, but you can change yourself/condition of the environment to influence others to change. I know my old job did an old Dale Carnegie trick where the nighttime shifts and daytime shift people had competitions of who could report the most bugs. There was no prize (oddly), but the sheer amount of desire to beat the shit out of those nighttime shift people who posted taunts and shit next to their tally of bugs reported (this was a QA job) was enough to get us to group together, meet all my co-workers and defeat them and release a rather nice game (Command & Conquer: Tiberium Wars). Hope this helps, correct me on anything please.
I thought my post implied what I was looking for... someone generally competent, preferably not a minor/in high school, someone who speaks clearly. I look for upbeat personalities, that's why I mentioned acting (at least) happy during an interview. I get a lot applicants who seem like generally depressed people. I can't have that in a kid's clothing store.
Considering your response, I can see why you comprehended my blog this way. I don't know if you fully understand the company I work for, or what it's like to manage a retail store. It's difficult trying to run a business with 17 year old kids who don't care, but kind of want to have a job. Sometimes. It depends on what sort of day they're having, it seems.
I can't expect too much when hiring college kids as associates, but I feel like there are just some common sense things that are being missed entirely. Things I shouldn't have to make completely clear. These are, in my opinion, extremely basic job skills.
You did mention one of flaws. I tend to get into "work mode" and I'm not super personable at times with my associates. Only with customers.  I feel like engaging in too much personal conversation with employees is bad. I try to avoid it. I guess it hurts my relationship with them, depending on the type of person they are. I worry they think I don't like them, when really I'm just busy or in work mode.
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On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position.
Simply put, I'm looking for someone who has basic job/interview skills.
1. Application filled out correctly and neatly.
2. Speaks clearly, is polite.
3. Acts genuine/nice/doesn't show up to the interview naked.
Seriously, I have hired people without any job experience simply because they seemed smart, pleasant, and were eager to learn.
Torte, thanks for defending me! Mean comments make me sad. <3
:B
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What were your previous employees like? Satisfied? Horrified?
Nah, I have no idea what your business is like. You've told tibits, but nothing in full detail or concrete.
(Oh and I never read into implications because it sometimes leads to misunderstandings, so I just go for the obvious and underline what needs to be stated just to be sure ;D!). But now I know it's a kid's clothing store. Way easier to asses what kind of people you want to go for. I can see why you don't want young teenagers at your store; doesn't exactly work with young mothers who deeply care/are sensitive about their children. Appearance is important in this case as well, eh?
So right there, we can set further boundaries: - Upbeat personalities
- Young adults (above the age of 17-18?)
- Caring/reasonable people (this is personal preference, you want sensitive beings who will take an enjoyment with being around kids/understand). I'd personally hire more female-oriented beings given that most children will shop with their mothers than their fathers (at least in westernized societies).
- Impressionable. You want the customers coming back, bla bla bla you know this
That's a good start. What other questions do you throw at them? Do you ever throw a curveball like: "What kind of children do you want if you ever wanted children?". I don't know if that's ethically allowed, but you'd might see things in people/applicants that you didn't see before.
Yeah, values are missed a lot amongst people growing, including myself of course. It just comes in time and some businesses have to suffer or become the parent/society guard and teach them proper ethics. Sucks majorly D:
My two cents, I'm okay with advice, but no, I don't have as much business experience than you (only my father's failed attempts and what I've been exposed/through personal reading).
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On October 25 2011 14:20 Porcelain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. Simply put, I'm looking for someone who has basic job/interview skills. 1. Application filled out correctly and neatly. 2. Speaks clearly, is polite. 3. Acts genuine/nice/doesn't show up to the interview naked. Seriously, I have hired people without any job experience simply because they seemed smart, pleasant, and were eager to learn. Torte, thanks for defending me! Mean comments make me sad. <3 :B
It's more about setting the record straight than defending haha :B
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i don't understand having to fill out applications. so time consuming writing the same crap over and over again. i've landed jobs where i just hand them my resume, they look at it for 10 seconds, and want to do an interview. anyways, i can see why its important at lower level, but even at lower end jobs i've much rather preferred to hand a resume to a hiring manager.
but given how idiotic some low wage workers are, it might be worth it to weed them out with an application like this. haha.
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On October 25 2011 14:23 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:20 Porcelain wrote:On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. Simply put, I'm looking for someone who has basic job/interview skills. 1. Application filled out correctly and neatly. 2. Speaks clearly, is polite. 3. Acts genuine/nice/doesn't show up to the interview naked. Seriously, I have hired people without any job experience simply because they seemed smart, pleasant, and were eager to learn. Torte, thanks for defending me! Mean comments make me sad. <3 :B It's more about setting the record straight than defending haha :B
You're so humble.
On October 25 2011 14:22 Torte de Lini wrote:What were your previous employees like? Satisfied? Horrified? Nah, I have no idea what your business is like. You've told tibits, but nothing in full detail or concrete. (Oh and I never read into implications because it sometimes leads to misunderstandings, so I just go for the obvious and underline what needs to be stated just to be sure ;D!). But now I know it's a kid's clothing store. Way easier to asses what kind of people you want to go for. I can see why you don't want young teenagers at your store; doesn't exactly work with young mothers who deeply care/are sensitive about their children. Appearance is important in this case as well, eh? So right there, we can set further boundaries: - Upbeat personalities
- Young adults (above the age of 17-18?)
- Caring/reasonable people (this is personal preference, you want sensitive beings who will take an enjoyment with being around kids/understand). I'd personally hire more female-oriented beings given that most children will shop with their mothers than their fathers (at least in westernized societies).
- Impressionable. You want the customers coming back, bla bla bla you know this
That's a good start. What other questions do you throw at them? Do you ever throw a curveball like: "What kind of children do you want if you ever wanted children?". I don't know if that's ethically allowed, but you'd might see things in people/applicants that you didn't see before. Yeah, values are missed a lot amongst people growing, including myself of course. It just comes in time and some businesses have to suffer or become the parent/society guard and teach them proper ethics. Sucks majorly D: My two cents, I'm okay with advice, but no, I don't have as much business experience than you (only my father's failed attempts and what I've been exposed/through personal reading).
I work for Crazy 8, and yes, you almost perfectly identified what I'm looking for when I'm attempting to hire someone. Most of our customers are mothers, and although we don't purposely hire more females, we don't currently have any males on staff. Nor do I ever get applications from males, ever. It's actually kind of weird working with an entirely all female staff. I wouldn't mind mixing it up a little.
I actually get a sense of accomplishment from teaching my younger associates values that they may have missed learning while growing up. I tell them that I don't technically care about Crazy 8, I care about people. Which is why customer service is so important, and why they're so important to me as well.
Your suggestion about asking applicants about children is actually really interesting, it might provide a nice insight on their personality. Although, I'm not sure if it's ethically allowed either. I may have to re-word questions similar to that to make sure it's not too personal. Currently, my only kid related question is about what experience they have with children in general.
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On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position.
Even if I can't fill out an application properly or do an interview properly, I still need a job, and this seasonal minimum wage job is the best i am going to get. Just because i can't do either of these things properly doesn't mean I can not do the job well. Just do YOUR job by training the employees you hire, and everything should work out fine. It is either that or future cheques from government welfare. You will eventually hire these clowns anyways when they get job application help from job agencies and the like. Stop complicating the process. The main thing you should look for when hiring is availability.
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On October 25 2011 14:24 yourwhiteshadow wrote:
i don't understand having to fill out applications. so time consuming writing the same crap over and over again. i've landed jobs where i just hand them my resume, they look at it for 10 seconds, and want to do an interview. anyways, i can see why its important at lower level, but even at lower end jobs i've much rather preferred to hand a resume to a hiring manager.
but given how idiotic some low wage workers are, it might be worth it to weed them out with an application like this. haha.
I sometimes get handed resumes, and I appreciate the effort. So I tend to get back to those people a lot faster.
I do have to hire for supervisor positions too, and I really like when I get resumes for those. Although, it's definitely not required and only helps an applicant look even better.
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I'd work there if 1. I didn't hate all manufacturers of kid's clothing and their overpricing given how long a child can wear it before they grow out of it 2. Can't work around kids because they're too cute, loud, obnoxious or whiny as hell (I hated shoe shopping).
Glad I could reverse my advice and give something slightly more useful :B. In short, just ask questions that are interesting, loosens up the interview to be more of a conversation, but can draw out relevant perspectives from the person and gain a much more fuller grasp than your usual questions.
You might be surprised in what you find out :3
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United States33347 Posts
On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position.
dude, he just wrote the same thing you did in your post, but did it in 800 less words.
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On October 25 2011 14:41 Porcelain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:24 yourwhiteshadow wrote:
i don't understand having to fill out applications. so time consuming writing the same crap over and over again. i've landed jobs where i just hand them my resume, they look at it for 10 seconds, and want to do an interview. anyways, i can see why its important at lower level, but even at lower end jobs i've much rather preferred to hand a resume to a hiring manager.
but given how idiotic some low wage workers are, it might be worth it to weed them out with an application like this. haha. I sometimes get handed resumes, and I appreciate the effort. So I tend to get back to those people a lot faster. I do have to hire for supervisor positions too, and I really like when I get resumes for those. Although, it's definitely not required and only helps an applicant look even better.
so, would you be annoyed if you got JUST a resume, no application?
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On October 25 2011 14:39 IronMonocle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. Even if I can't fill out an application properly or do an interview properly, I still need a job, and this seasonal minimum wage job is the best i am going to get. Just because i can't do either of these things properly doesn't mean I can not do the job well. Just do YOUR job by training the employees you hire, and everything should work out fine. It is either that or future cheques from government welfare. You will eventually hire these clowns anyways when they get job application help from job agencies and the like. Stop complicating the process. The main thing you should look for when hiring is availability.
If a business only viewed having a certain amount of availability as a requirement for hiring most would not succeed. They would inevitably fail. You must have very little business knowledge.
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On October 25 2011 14:42 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. dude, he just wrote the same thing you did in your post, but did it in 800 less words.
No? Because not all 800 words are critical or narrow-minded, that's for starters.
Secondly, I gave proper feedback and useful advice to correct or project different views in order to get most out of a situation.
Oh and thirdly, I said that the OP was making vast and large critical statements about the person without having real direction or need to make those assessments. The OP isn't being picky, but just overly-critical about factors that might not matter in the long-term (and we established this by maintaining what the person is looking for in an applicant [personality over proper working ethics because you can teach some personality]).
What you are saying is very generalized and not quite right. It's not fair to say he says the same as me when I say a lot more diverse things than identifying. Even if the third could be the definition of "picky" you are ignoring the first two which, combined, portrayed more effort and interest in repairing the problem than listing the issues.
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On October 25 2011 14:42 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. dude, he just wrote the same thing you did in your post, but did it in 800 less words.
Not really. 
On October 25 2011 14:43 yourwhiteshadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:41 Porcelain wrote:On October 25 2011 14:24 yourwhiteshadow wrote:
i don't understand having to fill out applications. so time consuming writing the same crap over and over again. i've landed jobs where i just hand them my resume, they look at it for 10 seconds, and want to do an interview. anyways, i can see why its important at lower level, but even at lower end jobs i've much rather preferred to hand a resume to a hiring manager.
but given how idiotic some low wage workers are, it might be worth it to weed them out with an application like this. haha. I sometimes get handed resumes, and I appreciate the effort. So I tend to get back to those people a lot faster. I do have to hire for supervisor positions too, and I really like when I get resumes for those. Although, it's definitely not required and only helps an applicant look even better. so, would you be annoyed if you got JUST a resume, no application?
Not at all. The resume (probably) has more than enough information to satisfy me, and I can ask any other relevant questions in an interview.
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On October 25 2011 14:45 Porcelain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:39 IronMonocle wrote:On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. Even if I can't fill out an application properly or do an interview properly, I still need a job, and this seasonal minimum wage job is the best i am going to get. Just because i can't do either of these things properly doesn't mean I can not do the job well. Just do YOUR job by training the employees you hire, and everything should work out fine. It is either that or future cheques from government welfare. You will eventually hire these clowns anyways when they get job application help from job agencies and the like. Stop complicating the process. The main thing you should look for when hiring is availability. If a business only viewed having a certain amount of availability as a requirement for hiring most would not succeed. They would inevitably fail. You must have very little business knowledge.
Ah, so I have very little business knowledge. Classic argumentum ad hominem.
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On October 25 2011 14:39 IronMonocle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. Even if I can't fill out an application properly or do an interview properly, I still need a job, and this seasonal minimum wage job is the best i am going to get. Just because i can't do either of these things properly doesn't mean I can not do the job well. Just do YOUR job by training the employees you hire, and everything should work out fine. It is either that or future cheques from government welfare. You will eventually hire these clowns anyways when they get job application help from job agencies and the like. Stop complicating the process. The main thing you should look for when hiring is availability.
That's fairly anecdotal and if you can't do the application properly or the interview, you won't necessarily get any job. You may be great at selling, but if you can't follow proper directions, protocol or procedure, you don't deserve the chance over those who put in the minimum amount of effort. If you want something, doing the mundane and seemingly pointless tasks is a good step in that direction.
The process isn't getting complicated, it's the standard.
On October 25 2011 14:49 IronMonocle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:45 Porcelain wrote:On October 25 2011 14:39 IronMonocle wrote:On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. Even if I can't fill out an application properly or do an interview properly, I still need a job, and this seasonal minimum wage job is the best i am going to get. Just because i can't do either of these things properly doesn't mean I can not do the job well. Just do YOUR job by training the employees you hire, and everything should work out fine. It is either that or future cheques from government welfare. You will eventually hire these clowns anyways when they get job application help from job agencies and the like. Stop complicating the process. The main thing you should look for when hiring is availability. If a business only viewed having a certain amount of availability as a requirement for hiring most would not succeed. They would inevitably fail. You must have very little business knowledge. Ah, so I have very little business knowledge. Classic argumentum ad hominem.
It's the assumption you have little business knowledge given how you couldn't assess the importance of basic procedure and how its valued for certain small or even large corporate businesses.
Now I'm defending, pft :B
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i dont understand the world anymore. i've been going to interviews willing to put up with any hours, be called in at any time, be payed as little as minimum wage, and do my best every single day and yet never get a job.
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On October 25 2011 14:55 Roe wrote:
i dont understand the world anymore. i've been going to interviews willing to put up with any hours, be called in at any time, be payed as little as minimum wage, and do my best every single day and yet never get a job.
What kind of job have you been applying for?
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On October 25 2011 14:49 IronMonocle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 14:45 Porcelain wrote:On October 25 2011 14:39 IronMonocle wrote:On October 25 2011 14:11 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 25 2011 14:08 IronMonocle wrote:
You are awfully picky about who you hire for a seasonal position in a minimum wage dead end job. All business-owners or managers are because they are worried about the overall health and growth of their business. You're viewing it from a poor, dismissive and misunderstood position. Even if I can't fill out an application properly or do an interview properly, I still need a job, and this seasonal minimum wage job is the best i am going to get. Just because i can't do either of these things properly doesn't mean I can not do the job well. Just do YOUR job by training the employees you hire, and everything should work out fine. It is either that or future cheques from government welfare. You will eventually hire these clowns anyways when they get job application help from job agencies and the like. Stop complicating the process. The main thing you should look for when hiring is availability. If a business only viewed having a certain amount of availability as a requirement for hiring most would not succeed. They would inevitably fail. You must have very little business knowledge. Ah, so I have very little business knowledge. Classic argumentum ad hominem.
Sorry, I had to make the assumption because of your oh-so-silly comment.
And no, I won't eventually hire these "clowns." If I do hire someone from a government job agency, my company gets a tax credit. But I'm in no way forced to hire anyone.... Plus, those aren't the kind of applicants we typically attract.
Also, if you can't fill out a job application properly (they're pretty damn simple) then you're going to have a hell of a time working even the easiest job.
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I find it interesting that you are skeptical of the high school students' working abilities.
In my experience with unskilled labor, it's the 16-18 year-olds that would be generally harder-working than the 20-somethings, mostly because they tend to not have been in the workforce to not be completely jaded about their employment. But that's just my limited experience.
But yeah, I suppose you can't expect much when you're looking to hire for a minimum wage temp job. It's simple supply and demand. The people who can present themselves decently already have better jobs...
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EPT
