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Dustin Browder, you are doing it wrong. - Page 6

Blogs > Newbistic
Post a Reply
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Rococo
Profile Joined May 2011
United States331 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 04:40:16
October 25 2011 00:29 GMT
#101
While I think that the "simple is better" maxim is a slight, well, simplification, I completely agree that it's the relationships between units that give the game value, and that interesting relationships come from asymmetries (both across and within the races). There's a reason that ZvT is widely considered SC2's best matchup: it's defined by really sharp contrasts between the core units. Whereas TvP and ZvP are center stage for the Three Stooges of SC2: the Roach, Marauder, and Stalker. There isn't a lot of contrast there. (I can't decide whether the Immortal or SC2 Hydra gets to be Shemp)

But I'm not sure that Browder is the problem so much as Blizzard, having transformed since the '90s into a very different company with a very different set of values, ones at odds with the qualities that made BW a phenomenal e-sport. Browder's task was to make a game that was not only balanced at all skill levels, but fun and varied at all skill levels. So a game quite unlike BW, which is a mess at lower levels, and that's exactly what he made.
iSometric
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
2221 Posts
October 25 2011 01:10 GMT
#102
Best analysis of the BW/SC2 rift by far. I think I agree with most of your points, and also, I would have liked SC2 more if it was more created in honor of how BW was.
strava.com/athletes/zhaodynasty
AeonStrife
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States918 Posts
October 25 2011 03:46 GMT
#103
Your post has a great point. I can see that the game may be getting too far from what made BW such a great Esports game. When I saw the new units from HotS, I was afraid the game was gonna get worse. I am thinking they are going to have alot of work ahead of them to fix what these units will bring to the table....
Whats worse...US Poltics or SC2 Balance Talks...
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
October 25 2011 04:34 GMT
#104
Great read, not that I agree 100% with everything but I just liked the flow of the article. In large though, I agree that SCBW sounds were much more crisp and exciting. The sound of lurker spines, reaver scarabs, tank volleys, spider mine pops... I miss them a lot.

I will say this though, I watched Blizzcon 2011 @ the Toronto Barcraft (chromate and GohgamX are such ballers) and SC2 matches were real exciting. It wasn't a huge turnout at the bar, but I'm pretty sure the atmosphere played a big part. Still, the GSL finals and the Blizzcon Finals were both awesome and you know what, that was good enough for me.

5/5 for the blog by the way. =)
[TLMS] REBOOT
TheGlassface
Profile Joined November 2010
United States612 Posts
October 25 2011 19:10 GMT
#105
On October 24 2011 14:10 Azzur wrote:
I disagree - whilst I liked BW alot, I feel that SC2 is a superior game. In SC2, I found that there was a great focus on army control (e.g. positioning, jockeying for a superior concave, etc), whilst BW was a test of multi-tasking mechanics. In SC2 players need to make split-second decisions that will easily affect the outcome of the game. I didn't like some of the gimmicky micro-intensive units in BW (e.g. reaver).

I prefer TvZ in SC2 - I consider MM overpowered in BW since medics are so powerful marines can just stim all day. In SC2, stimming is a major decision. I didn't like the muta-stacking in BW because I find it counter-intuitive how mutas can just smack turrets all day. I didn't like science vessels in TvZ because it essentially allowed allows terrans to trade energy for armies, and how it essentially hard counters mutas tremendously. Contrast with TvZ in SC2 where a single unit doesn't make something totally obsolete.

In BW, I don't like the air balance - valkyries/devourers were not good enough and scouts are the BM units. Valkyries/devourers should've been the masters of the skies (e.g. counter even carriers / BCs) since they only serve 1 purpose (air-to-air).

SC2 has done very nice micro - stutterstep, marine splits, army maneuvers to obtain a better concave.

However, I do agree with the OP in that I'm not sold on the direction of HoTS yet - where the move is towards gimmicky / flashy units.


Max rank in BW?

Because this reads like someone who has a very flawed view of the TvZ matchup. In fact, a bad view of the units/matchups in general.
The mystery of life is not a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. **Hang in there STX fans!! Kal Hwaiting!**
TheGlassface
Profile Joined November 2010
United States612 Posts
October 25 2011 19:15 GMT
#106
On October 24 2011 17:08 Azzur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2011 16:47 Dante08 wrote:
On October 24 2011 15:02 Azzur wrote:
On October 24 2011 14:56 myopia wrote:
On October 24 2011 14:39 Techno wrote:
On October 24 2011 14:33 myopia wrote:
On October 24 2011 14:22 Techno wrote:
Lotta hand waving at a concept that no one has really been able to figure out: Why is BW > SC2?

The answer is frankly SC2 would have to be in-fucking-credible to outshine the legend of BW. You don't want to hear this but its the only answer: Give it time.


On October 24 2011 14:20 ChineseWife wrote:
agreed. also does anyone cringe when david kim and browder use the term raid, referring to harass in sc2? For some reason that really bothers me and I guess shows me they are somewhat out of touch with the sc2 scene.

Nope, not I anyways. They have their own jargon that they use cause they work all day together and discuss the game wayyyy more than you do. It bothers me way more how desperate everyone is to paint Browder/Kim/Blizzard with such negativity all the time. You guys take anything you can find and try to say "this is why SC2 sucks" with it. Its just a lil annoying after a while. Just admit it: your on TL right now 'cause SC2 kicks ass.

Thanks, Blizzard!


You are misguided. I'm on TL right now because I loved BW and the community is awesome enough to keep me around despite my dislike of SC2.

The 'give it time' schtick no longer applies. It's had over a year. No number of new strats will overcome the marauder, roach, colossus, force field, thor, etc.. 'Giving it time' meant something to me when I thought HotS would make SC2 better. I don't like a single thing they revealed at Blizzcon. I don't care if it'll be tweaked before the next expansion is released - the very fact that they considered these ideas good enough to go public with is deeply concerning.

Frankly, I think there is no possible way you could be appeased, and even if you were, you would likely hide it. Lets pretend sc2 is actually C&C18 so we can finally stop yearning for our childhoods.

SC2 has only been out for a year. That is nothing!

Its not the actually dislike of sc2 that I have a grudge against, its people pretending to explain it.

Ad Hominem has never been a valid form of debate. It does not negate my post, which was little more than a rehash of the OP and countless other arguments that have been made against SC2 since the beta. This is how we feel.

I find it hilarious when Techno posts to "give it time" whilst myopia says that "The 'give it time' schtick no longer applies".

Anyways, I do agree with myopia with this one - SC2 has been out for more than a year already and concrete judgements can/should be made about the game. Although I don't agree with many of the "BW supporters who dislike SC2" people here. This is not to say that I like everything in SC2 over BW, but on the whole, I consider SC2 a superior game.

As mentioned earlier, I do have concerns about the HoTS direction, but will need to actually play/see the game to make concrete judgements.


Can I ask you a question? How much of BW have you watched and played to conclude that SC2 is the superior game. Just curious.

I watched BW near the start of the Boxer dropship-era (pre-1.08) till when FEs became the norm. During this time, I was recording vods using a 56k (!) modem (at around 5k/sec). Before TL even existed, I followed BW from www.broodwar.com (wow, that was a amazing website for it's time). I continued to watch now and then but it was a bit too hard. Thus, I missed the Nada, iloveoov and Savior era.

I returned around 2008 just before Flash because super-dominant. What I found interesting was that strategy advances was still made despite the game was 10 years old at that time. I watched alot of BW (thanks to jon747) until SC2 came out. Still, I was a BW elitist until I started playing and watching SC2. Slowly, I began to see many of the fine points of SC2 and now prefer it. Now, I only watch OSL and MSL finals for BW, but almost all GSL matches.



Disregard my earlier post but my point still stands. The way you described the units and interactions shows me, as far as playing goes, you missed some of the key ideas present in the atchups.

Stim is very important and I can recall several JvF games where J forced F to stim in order to eventually overrun the force with mutaLing. Just for one example. Also, medics can't keep up as well in BW vs a flying medic in SCII, which makes unit control, splitting of marines/medics and positioning paramount to success. Again, just a few examples. There are hundreds more.
The mystery of life is not a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. **Hang in there STX fans!! Kal Hwaiting!**
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
October 25 2011 23:04 GMT
#107
On October 24 2011 00:30 EvilTeletubby wrote:
Very well written sir, good way to articulate not just HotS issues, but basically SC2 issues altogether. SC2 is definitely flashier, but lacks what Brood War had in terms of substance.


It's always been that way unfortunately and I've been saying it since day 1.

Look, Dustin is a great guy and all as a person but his philosophy on game design, especially for RTS games is flawed.

He's said it many times as well; he goes for what would look cool first opposed to their viability, which should be priority number one of any game designer.
insanet
Profile Joined January 2010
Peru439 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 01:14:59
October 26 2011 01:13 GMT
#108
The line that differentiates SC2 expansions and a imaginary Harry Potter RTS where every friking unit has a spell, is becoming very thin.
Arthemesia
Profile Joined May 2011
United States292 Posts
October 26 2011 01:29 GMT
#109
Thanks for the read, and all of your points are well thought out. It definitely feels like Blizzard is less willing to take less risks as far as gameplay goes.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
October 26 2011 01:35 GMT
#110
Dustin didn't help with this game. But you can tell where his heart lies ...

starleague forever
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 02:00:54
October 26 2011 01:59 GMT
#111
I think you are putting quite a bit of this on Dustin Browder, I don't think you can put all the fault onto him alone. I also think you're simplifying your examples a bit - Halo, especially, added a lot of increasingly "crazy shit" as the series continued (jetpacks?).

But I mostly agree. Its weird, the units in sc2 seem both a little too niche AND a little too general in their role - or rather, the units are all very niche but the races end up very generalized. On sounds, sc2 DOES have some great sounds to it (banelings, SNIPE, and I love the dull thud of Brood Lords personally) though some of them are worse then they were in BW (tanks and psi storm primarily, imo).

i think part of the problem is that if a race gets something thats super powerful but specialized (ie if terran got BW-level siege tanks) then people bitch about how OP they are, and Blizzard nerfs them (sc2 tanks). But to compensate the race gets more generalized so they aren't UP.
DEN1ED
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1087 Posts
October 26 2011 02:40 GMT
#112
Completely agree with OP. I still don't understand how blizzard can make the greatest rts of all time and then when making the sequel decide to make it a COMPLETELY different game. As OP mentions, SF is extremely similar to original street fighter but the new versions are still amazing. Just make fine tweaks to the game. Unfortunately bliz has way too much pride to admit to being wrong.

Also, despite what bliz says about wanting SC2 to be an esport, I still think they are primarily concerned with the casual crowd. They are a business after all and the casual crowd makes them the most money. The entire HotS panel was just "look how cool and awesome these units are." David Kim talking about the mega-thor was very sad. "This is awesome, late game, A-move ultimate unit."

And whenever I watch a BW vod and hear a tank siege up I want to play BW
Kal_rA
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2925 Posts
October 26 2011 17:58 GMT
#113
Hydra spitting sound. 1 think that blizzard completely fucked up. I miss the spits
Jaedong.
Kal_rA
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2925 Posts
October 26 2011 18:04 GMT
#114
On October 24 2011 14:10 Azzur wrote:
I didn't like science vessels in TvZ because it essentially allowed allows terrans to trade energy for armies, and how it essentially hard counters mutas tremendously.

Ghost, EMP + snipe?
Jaedong.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
October 26 2011 19:00 GMT
#115
The latter half of this seemed to be solely about the sound effects. And I agree. I've agreed since beta. What is this wet-paper slap shit every zerg unit makes on attack? What is this swish-swosh of psi blades? I played the SCBW SC2 mod the other day and simply having the old attack sounds from the zerglings made them feel fucking awesome again. The sound effects guy at Blizzard needs a kick in the ass and a pink slip.

Anyway, you weren't really talking about the sound effects, even though they are really important and are currently lacking. You were talking about unit design. And I agree with everything you said, but unfortunately you are not the first person to say it. I remember what I think was an article by some TL staff having just gotten back from a first-hand play of WoL talking about how the units seemed to be pigeonholed into roles. Someone made the likeness of BW units being a ball you could toss around and have fun with whereas the SC2 units were on a rail going to a fixed destination. The reaper came up. It is a unit completely designed to harass from the start. Get that shit out of the game, let me be a little innovative myself please.

My point is, this has all been said before but whoever's in charge is obviously still of the opinion that he/she knows best.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Ricjames
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Czech Republic1047 Posts
October 26 2011 19:32 GMT
#116
I really like this blog, It sums up some of my concerns and why i do not play SC2. I kinda hope someone in Korea will make a very similar game to scbw, call it spacecraft and the whole SC2 with it's laughable units designed for 13 years old kids will dissapear.
Brood War is the best RTS that has ever been created.
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
October 26 2011 20:03 GMT
#117
On October 27 2011 02:58 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:
Hydra spitting sound. 1 think that blizzard completely fucked up. I miss the spits

The SC2 hydra attack sound should be replaced by the SC1 siege tank blast. Seriously they do a ridiculous amount of damage.
pandaBee
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States251 Posts
October 26 2011 20:42 GMT
#118
On October 27 2011 03:04 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 24 2011 14:10 Azzur wrote:
I didn't like science vessels in TvZ because it essentially allowed allows terrans to trade energy for armies, and how it essentially hard counters mutas tremendously.

Ghost, EMP + snipe?


he was talking about irradiate man. as in irradiate costing energy
EchOne
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2906 Posts
October 26 2011 20:53 GMT
#119
On October 27 2011 05:42 pandaBee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 03:04 sGs.Kal_rA wrote:
On October 24 2011 14:10 Azzur wrote:
I didn't like science vessels in TvZ because it essentially allowed allows terrans to trade energy for armies, and how it essentially hard counters mutas tremendously.

Ghost, EMP + snipe?


he was talking about irradiate man. as in irradiate costing energy

And so Kal_rA responded with I think what he felt was an example of "trading energy for armies" in SC2.

...the entire line of argument that "trading energy for armies" is somehow a.) literally what happens and b.) poor design is questionable. Energy is just another resource, another numbered dimension to account for in the vast network of numbers that is an RTS. Since the assets are all connected (minerals to units, unit speed to space and time, time to energy, etc.) having energy be relevant at all to the game state is in essence always going to result in energy affecting armies.
面白くない世の中, 面白くすればいいさ
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3805 Posts
October 26 2011 20:54 GMT
#120
Brilliant post, 100% agree

I don't feel special playing this game anymore, but I did feel special when i got to yell "BOOM HEADSHOT" in to my friends ear during a LAN when I popped his head with a god damn Arctic Warfare Magnum (god CS-LANs were good, BW as well)
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
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