• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:41
CEST 18:41
KST 01:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26
StarCraft 2
General
Firefly do had match fixing CN community: Firefly accused of suspicious activities The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Serious Question: Mech
Tourneys
$3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Mihu vs Korea Players Statistics BW General Discussion [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 21384 users

Dustin Browder, you are doing it wrong.

Blogs > Newbistic
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Newbistic
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
China2912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 09:09:37
October 23 2011 15:18 GMT
#1
Now that Blizzcon is over and we've all seen the new Heart of the Swarm units, a wave of negativity has washed over Team Liquid. It's actually kind of similar to when WoL was being announced. But this time, I think I have bigger beef with Dustin Browder's game design philosophy. I'm not going to argue about whether or not the units are good, since I don't know. But I will argue that the way he is approaching unit design is very risky and flawed.

Dustin Browder was hired by Blizzard based upon his work as game designer of Red Alert 2. If you look at the units in that game, the units in Wings of Liberty, and the units for Heart of the Swarm, you can kind of glean the philosophy he has in approaching unit design. He purposefully tries to create unique, gimmicky units that he feels are challenging to use and fulfills very specific niche roles. For Starcraft 2, it looks like he brainstormed a bunch of radical ideas that he thinks nobody has thought of before for units, and then he sticks them onto a bunch of units and distributes them among the races as he thinks is appropriate.

For a campy, crazy game like Red Alert 2, that kind of philosophy is perfect. The game's aim is to provide you with a wide variety of crazy and creative units to use, and Browder delivers that with a lot of fun but useless units like the chrono legionnaire, mind control units, armored blimp bombers, dolphins, giant squids, and the like.

[image loading]
Those capitalist pig-dogs in Japan can't see the true potential of tentacles

For a game like Starcraft 2, however, I don't think his approach is appropriate. Starcraft 2 isn't a gimmicky game, nor is it a pseudo RPG game like Warcraft 3. Starcraft 2 a chess match of large armies. Like chess, the pieces of the game should be simple in their nature yet complex in their interactions with other pieces.

Consider the simplicity of units in Brood War. Most units have very obvious strengths and weaknesses. High dps units have low health, low dps units have high health. Terran units that stray too far from supporting units like the siege tank or the medic are significantly weaker than Protoss and Zerg counterparts. In Wings of Liberty, these sharp differences have been significantly muddied by units with in-between roles such as the high health, high DPS marauder, the almost never used spellcaster Mothership, and the meaty roach which is almost like a zerg zealot with a ranged attack.

[image loading]
Do you remember this shit? TvZ and ZvT had fucking completely different skill sets with zero overlap

With Heart of the Swarm, the uniqueness of the individual races are even more muddied to the point where even though the units are different, the play style differences of all three races become moot. What is a Warhound but a marauder that can be made in a factory? Why does Terran need another meaty unit that can deal high damage to armored units? Why do the Protoss need another muta counter if the Phoenix was originally designed to BE the muta counter?

Basically, it would be much better if Browder focused less on trying to "shore up" the weaknesses of the races with fancy gimmicky units. Instead, he should design units that are more conventional but ballsier and play to the races' strengths. Make the weaknesses of each race even MORE vulnerable, but make the strengths unmatchable. Bring back the Beta siege tank with 60 splash damage but nerf the shit out of everything else, 40 hp marines and 60 hp marauders. Make Terran super dependent on defensive ranged firepower. Remove the Roach but make zergling and hydralisk-like units even cheaper and cost even less supply. By keeping units simple, you can greatly exaggerate the strengths and weaknesses of each race making them more dynamic, diverse, and exciting to play.

[image loading]
Remember this? This is the way TvZ was intended to be. Not a marauder in site.

Another flaw of Dustin Browder's unit design approach is that right now, NOBODY knows how the new units will perform, or how they will actually change gameplay. What everyone does know is that the weird justifications Browder and David Kim give for the units are all just bullshit and we won't know if the units are good or not until the pros start using it in GSL, MLG, IEM, and other tournaments at the highest level. What is the oracle supposed to do again? Nobody knows.

New units introduced in a highly-anticipated expansion pack is supposed to provide excitement and anticipation, not confound everybody who sees the unit. When Brood War was coming out and I saw the Lurker, or the Corsair, or the Medic, there were some extremely obvious potential uses for these units. They seemed simple, powerful, exciting, like units that make you go "oh! well of course these units should be in the game! I can see tons of things you can do with all of them". When I saw the HotS units, the only thing I thought was "well, I guess when I get the game I'll build a bunch of them and see what happens."

This simpler, more direct approach to unit design I'm proposing isn't anything new, but it's actually an established principle in many of the most popular competitively-played games. As examples, I can point out character designs in Street Fighter, gun designs in Halo and Counter-Strike, and the unit designs of Brood War.

1) Street Fighter

If you think about it, all characters in this fighting game have basically the same basic moves and a few specials. Even then, a lot of the specials are similar, like Ryu's Shoryuken and Sagat's Tiger Uppercut. It's just the different timings, ranges, and priorities of the moves that balance the game. None of this has changed much from the first iteration of Street Fighter 2 to the current Super Street Fighter 4. But Capcom is able to make 3482039 iterations of the same game work because the characters in the game, though simple, just feel nice. The simple execution of Ken's fierce Shoryuken, hearing three solid connect sounds, and seeing the opponent lit on fire creates a huge endorphin release that just makes you want the opponent to jump at you so you can repeat the move again. And again. It's simple, yet feels fucking amazing.

2) Halo

From Halo 1 to Halo 3, the weapons of the game haven't changed much at all. They're practically the same fucking weapons and same fucking gameplay. But these games make millions. Why? Because when you're holding that fucking awkward Xbox controller and wrestling the crosshairs and finally make that headshot with the sniper rifle against the twelve year old who's been calling you a faggot for the past 5 minutes, it feels fucking amazing. And you want him to keep calling you a faggot so you can say "you mad bro?" while you blow his head off a second, and a third, and a fourth time. The sharp crack of the rifle, the vapor trail, the simulated recoil, these are all very simple things that Bungie has tuned perfectly. So that each of the weapons, all of them completely generic and unimaginative, just feel good when you fire them and kill something.

3) Counter-Strike

And you thought Halo's space marine was boring and generic. Fuck, here you are land bound with a bunch of direct-fire, automatic, ballistic weapons that all shoot forward and can kill someone in 2 hits, body armor or not. No rocket jumps, no vehicles, no nothing. Yet people LOVE this game. Because the simplicity feels good. When the AK-47 roars in your earbuds and you see that low polygon representation of a person's head splatter red blood-shaped sprites everywhere, it feels amazing.

4) Brood War

Does anyone miss the roar of the Siege tank, the dull, powerful thud of a detonating scarab, the harsh screech of a mutalisk? Those are just a few of the visceral sounds toned down in Starcraft 2. Brood War, like Counter-Strike, relies a lot on the perfect sounds that effects make in the game that makes the units far more exciting than they actually are. I guarantee you, if Browder gave the SC2 zealot a manlier voice, removed the "we cannot hold" garbage, but left the stats the same, you WILL see a jump in zealot usage and people will think that the zealot seems more powerful. When you think back to the first time you see a zealot destroy a marine in only three hits while marines bullets bounced off its shields, it's really a wonder that TvP was actually a very balanced matchup.

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that simplicity can be infinitely more fun than complex gimmicky units that may or may not be useful. It actually provides the majority of the fun factor in some of the most popular games. In Starcraft 2, there some elements of the game that feel good: the TSSSSS sound of banelings crashing onto marines, the diarrheal squish overlords make when they pop, these are things that just look and feel amazing. But there are also tons of other units that are just completely mediocre: roaches with their flaccid attack sounds, marauders and stalkers attacking in general, the new mufflers installed on zealot psi blades and hydralisk spitting. I can't even remember what colossi lasers sound like, but I can still remember the distinct sound of a scarab detonation despite not having played Brood War in over a year.

As fun as Starcraft 2 is, it can be infinitely more fun and dynamic if the design principle behind the game focuses on the simpler aspects and not on introducing new, more complex units. Dustin Browder would do better if he thinks creatively inside the box rather than uncreatively outside of the box.

TL:DR HotS units don't feel good. In order for the game to succeed, shit should feel good.

EDIT: I apologize if the ending became more and more negative. The basic premises isn't that the new units of HotS are bad (since we simply don't know), but that they seem too contrived and gimmicky. I just think Dustin Browder's approach to designing Starcraft 2 units is not ideal for a game designed to be THE platform for e-sports over the next decade.

EDIT2: This post is not meant to be a pro-Brood War or anti-SC2 post, despite many of the comments posted below. The Brood War comparisons are simply a matter of familiarity and convenience.

****
Logic is Overrated
GoShox
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States1835 Posts
October 23 2011 15:25 GMT
#2
Yes, thank you so much. When I saw these new units the first thing I thought of was RA2 where everything was so gimmicky. Don't get me wrong, RA2 and all the C&C games that Browder worked on were pretty fun and I would still enjoy playing them. But there's a reason that all of those games are now freeware and Starcraft is still being played competitively in Korea.
EvilTeletubby
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
October 23 2011 15:30 GMT
#3
Very well written sir, good way to articulate not just HotS issues, but basically SC2 issues altogether. SC2 is definitely flashier, but lacks what Brood War had in terms of substance.
Moderatorhttp://carbonleaf.yuku.com/topic/408/t/So-I-proposed-at-a-Carbon-Leaf-concert.html ***** RIP Geoff
chocopaw
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
2072 Posts
October 23 2011 15:32 GMT
#4
Overall a quality blog that I largely agree with, thank you for that, but I think Dusty is not the evil overmind behind all bad decisions that people tend him to make.
http://twitter.com/lechocopaw
Ingenol
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States1328 Posts
October 23 2011 15:33 GMT
#5
Very well stated. SC2 is lacking both the simple visceral pleasure of BW and the other games you mentioned AND their depth of skill.
PlaGuE_R
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
France1151 Posts
October 23 2011 15:33 GMT
#6
some of your points are indeed valid. I will hold on to my opinions until a beta of some sort comes out though
TLO FIGHTING | me all in, he drone drone drone, me win - SK.MC | JINROLLED! | KraToss for the win
supernovamaniac
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States3046 Posts
October 23 2011 15:35 GMT
#7
I'll give it few days before they change the name of SC2 to C&C5: StarCraft edition.

"Bring back the Beta siege tank with 60 splash damage but nerf the shit out of everything else, 40 hp marines and 60 hp marauders. Make Terran super dependent on defensive ranged firepower. Remove the Roach but make zergling and hydralisk-like units even cheaper and cost even less supply. By keeping units simple, you can greatly exaggerate the strengths and weaknesses of each race making them more dynamic, diverse, and exciting to play."

Probably one of the best "fix" to SC2 out there at the moment, and I completely agree to what you say. This is what Sayle (BW streamer) said yesterday:

"...So we ask Blizzard for ways to harass better in SC2 as other two races (Protoss/Zerg) because storm drops and reaver drops were quite useful.... and we get this shit? Fuck this..." end quote.
ppp
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
October 23 2011 15:37 GMT
#8
Interesting-- I kind of agree with your general thoughts, but it IS still early to jump to conclusions-- I took the reveals more as a snapshot of a stream of consciousness in design rather than as a fully realized end product.

You bring up a good point-- I wonder if the design philosophy IS more on a unit-by-unit basis with this team rather than on a race-as-a-whole level. It suggests a superficial understanding of the complex interactions between units.

Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1965 Posts
October 23 2011 15:37 GMT
#9
i always felt Dustin Browder being the wrong man for sc2
well i will stick with good old bw till i stop playing rts
Total Annihilation Zero
Noro
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada991 Posts
October 23 2011 15:42 GMT
#10
I don't get why everyone is so negative about this... Things are NOT finalized. If you'll remember in WoL beta, Roaches were pretty much free and only cost 1 food. But guess what, the design team weren't idiots, so they fixed it. That's the point of betas.
Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me.
mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
October 23 2011 15:42 GMT
#11
IMO Dustin Browder should be fired ASAP. His design philosophy is really not suit for a game like starcraft. This blog is very well written, Browder's slowly turning SC2 into a RA2 sequel with a more popular brand name.

What strikes me the most is the reasoning behind their changes. The justification as to why they're doing this or that change is just... ridiculous to say the least. They're adding gimmicky units to try and patch basic holes in gameplay, which is something that clearly won't work.

I'm sad for SC2. I watched both D3 and HotS panels, and you could tell the quality of the team behind D3 is incredibly superior. You could just feel their passion for the game, while all I got from Browder is this massive bragging all the time, while Kim looked bored and uninspired.
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
October 23 2011 15:42 GMT
#12
Wow, this actually grasps so much of my feelings too... I don't normally post replies to things like this, but I have to say, you captured the situation quite well.

I'm hopeful for the future, even if it's not the exact one that I want. Maybe StarCraft II will continue to grow in ways we don't expect.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
wrags
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States379 Posts
October 23 2011 15:44 GMT
#13
although it's almost irrelevant

one of the things i miss the most from broodwar was hitting T and hearing "ahhh yeah"
Skeggaba
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Korea (South)1556 Posts
October 23 2011 15:46 GMT
#14
5/5, very accurate and well written!
Bisu[about JD]=I was scared (laughs). The force emanating from his facial expression was so manly that I was even a little jealous.
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6592 Posts
October 23 2011 15:47 GMT
#15
Extremely well written post. I agree completely with where you are saying sc2 has derailed when it comes to units.
LiquidDota Staff
myopia
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2928 Posts
October 23 2011 15:50 GMT
#16
I agree with these sentiments.
it's my first day
Sverigevader
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden388 Posts
October 23 2011 15:51 GMT
#17
You've summed up all of my random thoughts about SC2 I've ever had. Completely agree on every point. Although it's too early to say, I don't see how any changes they might make in HotS will change how we feel about this game.
"I can answer this, you're just a god damn sexy mofo." http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=147829&currentpage=7#139
Harrow
Profile Joined November 2010
United States245 Posts
October 23 2011 15:52 GMT
#18
I think my least favorite of these new units is the Dark Archon. It just seems SO gimmicky. Mind Control? Maybe that would fit in some campy game like RA2, but it's so out of place in Starcraft. An AoE stun just makes me think the WoW designers suggested it as well.

Why can't they make more units like the Scout, which really fits the Protoss race and has really clear uses in pro games?
caradoc
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada3022 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-23 15:58:39
October 23 2011 15:53 GMT
#19
On October 24 2011 00:47 OmniEulogy wrote:
Extremely well written post. I agree completely with where you are saying sc2 has derailed when it comes to units.


Maybe I was naive to hope that they would remove the collosus, the roach, the goddamned marauder. Replacing them with thoughtful, race appropriate, awesome alternatives that deeply interacted with other tactical resources the races had. But I did hope, and I am so disappointed.

Was the perfection of deep unit interaction and synergy that was Brood War simply a blip in history?

On October 24 2011 00:52 Harrow wrote:
I think my least favorite of these new units is the Dark Archon. It just seems SO gimmicky. Mind Control? Maybe that would fit in some campy game like RA2, but it's so out of place in Starcraft. An AoE stun just makes me think the WoW designers suggested it as well.

Why can't they make more units like the Scout, which really fits the Protoss race and has really clear uses in pro games?


I suppose we do tend to think of the fully formed old and compare it with the absent metagame of the yet to be released new and lament at its emptiness. But there was obvious synergy in BW even before release. I see no synergy or racial cohesion or even a perfunctory attempt at any type of grand overarching racial design in these new units. (aside from maybe something like 'zerg are swarmy, lets give them more swarmy stuff', 'terran are mechy, lets give them more mechy stuff', protoss are strange and annoying, lets give them more strange and annoying stuff)
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea...
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
October 23 2011 15:56 GMT
#20
On October 24 2011 00:52 Harrow wrote:
I think my least favorite of these new units is the Dark Archon. It just seems SO gimmicky. Mind Control? Maybe that would fit in some campy game like RA2, but it's so out of place in Starcraft. An AoE stun just makes me think the WoW designers suggested it as well.

Why can't they make more units like the Scout, which really fits the Protoss race and has really clear uses in pro games?


This gave me a good laugh.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 19m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech118
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 8352
EffOrt 1629
Horang2 706
Stork 553
firebathero 174
Snow 161
Sharp 135
sas.Sziky 59
sSak 58
Yoon 57
[ Show more ]
Pusan 52
Movie 51
Barracks 50
sorry 42
Hyun 33
Sacsri 30
Rock 27
Terrorterran 26
Backho 16
Dewaltoss 5
Dota 2
Gorgc7972
qojqva3699
syndereN515
Counter-Strike
fl0m5501
olofmeister766
rGuardiaN94
FunKaTv 80
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King70
Other Games
tarik_tv53922
gofns13512
summit1g3265
B2W.Neo1268
Beastyqt725
hiko671
Lowko349
Hui .254
ArmadaUGS181
KnowMe87
Trikslyr70
QueenE64
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream501
StarCraft 2
angryscii 23
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 38
• poizon28 36
• OhrlRock 2
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Rasowy 6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4494
League of Legends
• Nemesis2161
• TFBlade1249
Other Games
• Shiphtur275
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 19m
Replay Cast
17h 19m
WardiTV Invitational
18h 19m
WardiTV Invitational
18h 19m
PiGosaur Monday
1d 7h
GSL Code S
1d 16h
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Online Event
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
GSL Code S
2 days
herO vs Zoun
Classic vs Bunny
The PondCast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
OSC
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Cheesadelphia
4 days
GSL Code S
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.