This blog is to talk a bit about comebacks in ladder games - there's no such thing. You're in a ladder game and getting owned pretty hard, then you're like wow, this game suddenly got a lot easier, I CAN COME BACK! - Please note, this does not demonstrate your skill or ability to comeback, it only demonstrates your opponent's boredom given the situation. Fact is, you don't improve by staying in that game for the extra 10-20 minutes even if you do end up with the ladder points. And if you need the ladder points that bad, then you're playing for all the wrong reasons. I mean, this rant is because I'm sick of people who are at a huge disadvantage staying in games, if you just got fucked over hard, don't try to comeback unless you're in a tournament game(at which point you will see how hard a comeback actually is). Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, if you're severely down in a game, just leave and CERTAINLY, don't compliment yourself on how good of a job you did in coming back(if applicable).
I think it's good people keep playing even if they are behind, man I've done this so many times and won so many games with comebacks. Can't be mad at the other person for trying to win, and it's dragging, blame yourself for not being able to finish the job fast.
On October 23 2011 16:01 Metal[x] wrote: I think it's good people keep playing even if they are behind, man I've done this so many times and won so many games with comebacks. Can't be mad at the other person for trying to win, and it's dragging, blame yourself for not being able to finish the job fast.
I don't think it proves anything, the same situation in a tournament game, you'd win every time, but since its ladder, the interest in completing a game that's over with a stubborn opponent just isn't worth the time or full attention.
if their disadvantage is that big then it should be up to the person with the advantage to push it and win, just like most similar games any disadvantage that isn't that big and is still fightable does most definitely come down to skill difference (if you lose some probes to a 9 pool as a toss but manage to get a cannon up and clean them up, as long as you didn't lose like all your probes its still playable, and if the protoss is significantly more skilled than the zerg than they can win)
maybe give some examples of situations you don't like?
Yeah one game I made 2 early stalkers vs terran and attacked. I killed like all his units and 5 scvs but he didn't leave! like wtf man.
Seriously, it isn't that big of a deal. Yeah, I've occasionally also thought "Why won't this noob leave? I've won already!" but on some level I do realize that if there is even the slightest sliver and chance I might accidentally suffer a concussion, leading to me being afk and letting him win, then there is still reason to stay in the game.
Seriously, watch some of Boxer's games, past and present. He has probably the best mentality in Starcraft's history. He is an amazing human being.
On October 23 2011 16:26 Geovu wrote: Yeah one game I made 2 early stalkers vs terran and attacked. I killed like all his units and 5 scvs but he didn't leave! like wtf man.
Seriously, it isn't that big of a deal. Yeah, I've occasionally also thought "Why won't this noob leave? I've won already!" but on some level I do realize that if there is even the slightest sliver and chance I might accidentally suffer a concussion, leading to me being afk and letting him win, then there is still reason to stay in the game.
Trying to make a comeback work is in my opinion a great opportunity for practice. On the one hand you get to work on your crisis management - realizing what you need to do now to get the biggest advantage possible out of your limited funds/options. And on the other hand it's also quite useful for your mindset, because it often times shows you how much you can get out of every single unit if you actively use it.
And as you said "Don't try to comeback unless its a tournament game" - if you never practice it, you will fail horribly in a tournament environment ^.^
And seriously, if you really have such a huge advantage then use it to practice your mechanics and your macro to ride the advantage home.
Comeback is a different thing, being a fag is a different thing. What I'm saying is, losing all your mutas in a ZvT by just not paying attention to them for a few miliseconds is a different thing, turtling into a mined out base, building mass turrets and sieging mass tanks (also going afk in the process) just to get 100 ladder points is a different thing. Latter has nothing to be called a comeback.
If you think you can still win you should stay in. gging at a disadvantage is silly. The metric of being good is winning games. if your opponent loses focus and you win because of it, you were the better player. plain and simple
On October 23 2011 16:01 Metal[x] wrote: I think it's good people keep playing even if they are behind, man I've done this so many times and won so many games with comebacks. Can't be mad at the other person for trying to win, and it's dragging, blame yourself for not being able to finish the job fast.
I don't think it proves anything, the same situation in a tournament game, you'd win every time, but since its ladder, the interest in completing a game that's over with a stubborn opponent just isn't worth the time or full attention.
Hmm, I disagree.
I strongly believe in practicing how you would play. Why would you ever take your full attention away from the game even if your significantly ahead. Lazy play can then give your opponent and opening for a comeback. I guess I'm not on the same page of you in terms of effort, I can't imagine not giving your full focus and energy to every game.
Additionally, playing from behind and playing from ahead are skillsets. Both require slightly different adaptations to your play that you DON'T get a chance to practice if you aren't playing in those situations. If your playing from behind it can help teach you how to be scrappy, cost effective, and clever. You learn how to look for, or create, opportunities to get back in the game so that when your in a tournament setting you have a slightly better chance of actually being able to make something happen. If you leave a game before those situation types occur you have no experience of what they are like and how to prepare and deal with them.
On October 23 2011 16:55 Djagulingu wrote: Comeback is a different thing, being a fag is a different thing. What I'm saying is, losing all your mutas in a ZvT by just not paying attention to them for a few miliseconds is a different thing, turtling into a mined out base, building mass turrets and sieging mass tanks (also going afk in the process) just to get 100 ladder points is a different thing. Latter has nothing to be called a comeback.
They probably aren't doing it coz they want ladder points. They do it to annoy you or they just hate you/your race.
On October 23 2011 16:55 Djagulingu wrote: Comeback is a different thing, being a fag is a different thing. What I'm saying is, losing all your mutas in a ZvT by just not paying attention to them for a few miliseconds is a different thing, turtling into a mined out base, building mass turrets and sieging mass tanks (also going afk in the process) just to get 100 ladder points is a different thing. Latter has nothing to be called a comeback.
They probably aren't doing it coz they want ladder points. They do it to annoy you or they just hate you/your race.
Exactly, they are not trying to come back or anything. They're just being a fag. But losing 11 mutas (assuming standard 3 hatch opening) without doing damage in a ZvT and winning afterwards is a comeback and no one should gg because he lost his mutas in ZvT without doing damage.
On October 23 2011 16:55 Djagulingu wrote: Comeback is a different thing, being a fag is a different thing. What I'm saying is, losing all your mutas in a ZvT by just not paying attention to them for a few miliseconds is a different thing, turtling into a mined out base, building mass turrets and sieging mass tanks (also going afk in the process) just to get 100 ladder points is a different thing. Latter has nothing to be called a comeback.
On October 23 2011 16:55 Djagulingu wrote: Comeback is a different thing, being a fag is a different thing. What I'm saying is, losing all your mutas in a ZvT by just not paying attention to them for a few miliseconds is a different thing, turtling into a mined out base, building mass turrets and sieging mass tanks (also going afk in the process) just to get 100 ladder points is a different thing. Latter has nothing to be called a comeback.
They probably aren't doing it coz they want ladder points. They do it to annoy you or they just hate you/your race.
By your logic, the 300 brave Spartans were, ahem, fags...
The point is this. You fight until you die. Not running from the battlefield even when you know you will die is a matter of Honor. It is something that shows true masculine dedication to one's goal, that the person will fight for it, no matter what the odds, never letting go of the victory so dearly imagined at the back of one's skull, until every man has fallen.
I do agree that people who stay behind when they have clearly lost is quite annoying. Problem is different people have different perception of the scenarios and might still think they have a chance. At which point would one leave, when the game is lost 80%? 90%? When a comeback is made however it feels really great becoz majority of us will seldom play on tournaments, so the only way to experience it is on a ladder.
Fact is, you don't improve by staying in that game for the extra 10-20 minutes even if you do end up with the ladder points. And if you need the ladder points that bad, then you're playing for all the wrong reasons.
Not everyone plays to improve, i think... they simply pay for fun, and comebacks are definitely fun. At least that's what I think.
In general I do agree with you coz i tend to gg quite early anyways.
On October 23 2011 16:01 Metal[x] wrote: I think it's good people keep playing even if they are behind, man I've done this so many times and won so many games with comebacks. Can't be mad at the other person for trying to win, and it's dragging, blame yourself for not being able to finish the job fast.
I don't think it proves anything, the same situation in a tournament game, you'd win every time, but since its ladder, the interest in completing a game that's over with a stubborn opponent just isn't worth the time or full attention.
Hmm, I disagree.
I strongly believe in practicing how you would play. Why would you ever take your full attention away from the game even if your significantly ahead. Lazy play can then give your opponent and opening for a comeback. I guess I'm not on the same page of you in terms of effort, I can't imagine not giving your full focus and energy to every game.
Additionally, playing from behind and playing from ahead are skillsets. Both require slightly different adaptations to your play that you DON'T get a chance to practice if you aren't playing in those situations. If your playing from behind it can help teach you how to be scrappy, cost effective, and clever. You learn how to look for, or create, opportunities to get back in the game so that when your in a tournament setting you have a slightly better chance of actually being able to make something happen. If you leave a game before those situation types occur you have no experience of what they are like and how to prepare and deal with them.
That's kind of like arguing that people should cheese on ladder because it gets them practice and makes them better.
On October 23 2011 18:45 blubbdavid wrote: Seems like someone is mad. Seems like someone just lost to a scrub who didn't find the surrender button.
Yes ^^. I just don't understand why people don't give up... Just now(though I won this game) a guy lifted his base and was mining from 2 hidden expos... (How did he expect to comeback? o.o ---> only CC and SCVs at expos no D.
This blog is to talk a bit about comebacks in ladder games - there's no such thing. You're in a ladder game and getting owned pretty hard, then you're like wow, this game suddenly got a lot easier, I CAN COME BACK! - Please note, this does not demonstrate your skill or ability to comeback, it only demonstrates your opponent's boredom given the situation. Fact is, you don't improve by staying in that game for the extra 10-20 minutes even if you do end up with the ladder points. And if you need the ladder points that bad, then you're playing for all the wrong reasons. I mean, this rant is because I'm sick of people who are at a huge disadvantage staying in games, if you just got fucked over hard, don't try to comeback unless you're in a tournament game(at which point you will see how hard a comeback actually is). Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, if you're severely down in a game, just leave and CERTAINLY, don't compliment yourself on how good of a job you did in coming back(if applicable).
You either have to passion to win or you don't. Losing from lack of attention due to boredom is a flaw.
You don't improve by staying an extra 10-20 minutes? So you're saying playing the game doesn't make you better. I fail to see the lack of correlation between playing and improving. Boredom from closing out a win = lack of competitive spirit IMO.
This blog is to talk a bit about comebacks in ladder games - there's no such thing. You're in a ladder game and getting owned pretty hard, then you're like wow, this game suddenly got a lot easier, I CAN COME BACK! - Please note, this does not demonstrate your skill or ability to comeback, it only demonstrates your opponent's boredom given the situation. Fact is, you don't improve by staying in that game for the extra 10-20 minutes even if you do end up with the ladder points. And if you need the ladder points that bad, then you're playing for all the wrong reasons. I mean, this rant is because I'm sick of people who are at a huge disadvantage staying in games, if you just got fucked over hard, don't try to comeback unless you're in a tournament game(at which point you will see how hard a comeback actually is). Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, if you're severely down in a game, just leave and CERTAINLY, don't compliment yourself on how good of a job you did in coming back(if applicable).
You either have to passion to win or you don't. Losing from lack of attention due to boredom is a flaw.
You don't improve by staying an extra 10-20 minutes? So you're saying playing the game doesn't make you better. I fail to see the lack of correlation between playing and improving. Boredom from closing out a win = lack of competitive spirit IMO.
It is lack of competitive spirit, I rather start a new game then close a game that should be over. Also, you're not improving your BO, you're not improving your macro, not really improving your micro, you're just praying to god that he doesn't see where your shuttle is headed o.o Hence my point that you're not really improving by playing that extra bit.
On October 23 2011 16:55 Djagulingu wrote: Comeback is a different thing, being a fag is a different thing. What I'm saying is, losing all your mutas in a ZvT by just not paying attention to them for a few miliseconds is a different thing, turtling into a mined out base, building mass turrets and sieging mass tanks (also going afk in the process) just to get 100 ladder points is a different thing. Latter has nothing to be called a comeback.
On October 23 2011 16:55 Djagulingu wrote: Comeback is a different thing, being a fag is a different thing. What I'm saying is, losing all your mutas in a ZvT by just not paying attention to them for a few miliseconds is a different thing, turtling into a mined out base, building mass turrets and sieging mass tanks (also going afk in the process) just to get 100 ladder points is a different thing. Latter has nothing to be called a comeback.
They probably aren't doing it coz they want ladder points. They do it to annoy you or they just hate you/your race.
By your logic, the 300 brave Spartans were, ahem, fags...
The point is this. You fight until you die. Not running from the battlefield even when you know you will die is a matter of Honor. It is something that shows true masculine dedication to one's goal, that the person will fight for it, no matter what the odds, never letting go of the victory so dearly imagined at the back of one's skull, until every man has fallen.
By my logic, you should quit the game and play another one, so you can practice/improve. No sense in fighting a lost battle. You live to fight another day, right?
This blog is to talk a bit about comebacks in ladder games - there's no such thing. You're in a ladder game and getting owned pretty hard, then you're like wow, this game suddenly got a lot easier, I CAN COME BACK! - Please note, this does not demonstrate your skill or ability to comeback, it only demonstrates your opponent's boredom given the situation. Fact is, you don't improve by staying in that game for the extra 10-20 minutes even if you do end up with the ladder points. And if you need the ladder points that bad, then you're playing for all the wrong reasons. I mean, this rant is because I'm sick of people who are at a huge disadvantage staying in games, if you just got fucked over hard, don't try to comeback unless you're in a tournament game(at which point you will see how hard a comeback actually is). Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, if you're severely down in a game, just leave and CERTAINLY, don't compliment yourself on how good of a job you did in coming back(if applicable).
You either have to passion to win or you don't. Losing from lack of attention due to boredom is a flaw.
You don't improve by staying an extra 10-20 minutes? So you're saying playing the game doesn't make you better. I fail to see the lack of correlation between playing and improving. Boredom from closing out a win = lack of competitive spirit IMO.
It is lack of competitive spirit, I rather start a new game then close a game that should be over. Also, you're not improving your BO, you're not improving your macro, not really improving your micro, you're just praying to god that he doesn't see where your shuttle is headed o.o Hence my point that you're not really improving by playing that extra bit.
why dont u just stop crying and play? If it bothers you that much just quit yourself once you "know" that you won. You said yourself that ladder rank means nothing. So get your BO practice or whatever and quit?
This blog is to talk a bit about comebacks in ladder games - there's no such thing. You're in a ladder game and getting owned pretty hard, then you're like wow, this game suddenly got a lot easier, I CAN COME BACK! - Please note, this does not demonstrate your skill or ability to comeback, it only demonstrates your opponent's boredom given the situation. Fact is, you don't improve by staying in that game for the extra 10-20 minutes even if you do end up with the ladder points. And if you need the ladder points that bad, then you're playing for all the wrong reasons. I mean, this rant is because I'm sick of people who are at a huge disadvantage staying in games, if you just got fucked over hard, don't try to comeback unless you're in a tournament game(at which point you will see how hard a comeback actually is). Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, if you're severely down in a game, just leave and CERTAINLY, don't compliment yourself on how good of a job you did in coming back(if applicable).
I 100% agree with you. I also just leave when I am not only getting owned pretty hard but just slightly disadvantaged.
On October 23 2011 16:01 Metal[x] wrote: I think it's good people keep playing even if they are behind, man I've done this so many times and won so many games with comebacks. Can't be mad at the other person for trying to win, and it's dragging, blame yourself for not being able to finish the job fast.
I don't think it proves anything, the same situation in a tournament game, you'd win every time, but since its ladder, the interest in completing a game that's over with a stubborn opponent just isn't worth the time or full attention.
Hmm, I disagree.
I strongly believe in practicing how you would play. Why would you ever take your full attention away from the game even if your significantly ahead. Lazy play can then give your opponent and opening for a comeback. I guess I'm not on the same page of you in terms of effort, I can't imagine not giving your full focus and energy to every game.
Additionally, playing from behind and playing from ahead are skillsets. Both require slightly different adaptations to your play that you DON'T get a chance to practice if you aren't playing in those situations. If your playing from behind it can help teach you how to be scrappy, cost effective, and clever. You learn how to look for, or create, opportunities to get back in the game so that when your in a tournament setting you have a slightly better chance of actually being able to make something happen. If you leave a game before those situation types occur you have no experience of what they are like and how to prepare and deal with them.
That's kind of like arguing that people should cheese on ladder because it gets them practice and makes them better.
Cheese is a pretty damn good way to practice small-scale early game micro. Cheese is an inefficient way to practice in general though, since it is working just one small subset of your play whereas standard macro games work almost all aspects of your play at once.
I guess I can buy into your point somewhat, which seems to be that a more efficient use of most peoples time would be just leaving the game and going and play a full macro game from the start instead of focusing on the smaller subset of play that "making a comeback" might require.
However, lets not forget that for some people that ultra competitive, must not lose type style and mindset is fun, and thus for them makes it absolutely justifiable as most people do play BW to have fun and if they enjoy it then that's good for them.
The other issue you run into is where do you draw the line between how far behind do you need to be before you should leave the game. Yea if its like a terran down to 2 bases, almost mind out vs an 8 base protoss and the terran is just making walls and buildings, rings of turrets, mining up everything to infinity, etc. that probably to far. Then again, I've played people where I made a reaver, dropped a zealot on a tank, killed it, and then they left, which is ridiuclous on the opposite side of the spectrum. But in a situation like 6 base toss vs 3 base T or 2 base T vs 2 base Z (third killed) your significantly behind but one mistake from the protoss or terran can give you a pretty nice window to even up the game.
Honestly though, I can't relate to why this annoys you so much. I understand why it does, but I can't relate. If it's that annoying and you've won the game, as you see it, then why not just go ahead and leave?
EPT
