Answering all the "Can I be a progamer?" ?'s

On October 20 2011 17:48 Funnytoss wrote:
I expected this blog to be something along the lines of,

"Can I be a progamer?"

"If you have to ask, no."

On October 20 2011 17:53 Game wrote:

I'm not sure if you actually watched it or not, but he actually said that.

On October 20 2011 17:57 MarCoon wrote:

Yeah, but he kinda explained why and not just say "No you can't"

On October 20 2011 17:59 Game wrote:

Uhh, not trying to argue about it, but he physically stated those lines. Despite his explanation further (which is helpful to all of the ignorant people), he said it.

On October 20 2011 18:54 Celadan wrote:
He says that if you're a low level player and want to be the best you can't, but if your high level you can care about being the best??

On October 20 2011 20:00 Vortigan wrote:
Maybe if u wanna be the very very best like the Michael Jordan example, but then again there's a ton of players in the NBA or Euroleague who are not as gifted as Michael jordan and are still professionals because they just worked really really hard. I think the same goes for gaming.

On October 20 2011 19:48 Sega92 wrote:
I'm sorry but I have a hard time agreeing with this, saying you are either good at thinking strategically or not. Now while some may be better than others there is no reason that those that work hard can't achieve the same results.

for example are generals just born?
from what I can gather you seem to think so and if that is the case why do we have military training? Why don't we have 1 test for strategic aptitude and if someone does well on it just slap some stars on them and send them to war?

and why do all officers start as lieutenant? if they are any good at all why not just give them an entire battalion?

because people need experience and if someone is just starting rts games with sc2 there is no reason that they shouldn't be able to get to the same places professionally as people who started out with bw

also can't the comparison between brain activity between pros and non pros be contributed to the fact that the pros are focusing on the game differently, for example say the non pro need to think about aiming the weapon over the enemies head whereas for the pro that is second nature?

in short this just seems very elitist (it might not have been meant that way and I'm sorry if it wasn't but I'm just saying how it seems) it kind of gives off this "well if you aren't X the you will never be Y" well thats not always true, remember that Einstein dropped out of school at 16 because he was told he'd never be anything and school was a waste of his time


also about smaller people having a better edge all I have to say is nestea is what 6'2" ? and he is kicking all sorts of ass

also I assume then that the same would be true of piano players, that bony hands = better but elton john has fingers that are like sausages

TL:DR talent means you need less practice, not that you are somehow instantly better
so if no talent than practice more, if less practice than you need more talent to stay at the same skill level

and I could only get to the 10:15 mark before I couldn't watch anymore so if you address anything that I say here then just let me know and I'll edit it out


exactly what the guy below me said, he just put it better than I did

On October 20 2011 20:48 lastshadow wrote:


Addressing the military statement, this isn't a good analogy, because military needs man-power. Addressing the general statement, experience is needed for even progamers yes, however none of these generals turn into the next Alexander of Macedonia, now do they?

About the Nestea thing, surely you would agree that taller players have an advantage in basketball, whereas larger/stronger men have an advantage in football depending on their position, and vice-versa for skinny/thin. It was just a simple statement meant to say there can obstacles in the way due to physical fitness (relating only to progaming)

I'll use my teammate Oasis as a example (was going to use Minigun but I don't [fully] know his history). He played sc1 for two months and achieved the B rank on iccup (a feat that would take normal players 1yr to achieve, given the hardness of sc1 and having 0 rts experience). He's also now a top GM on korea server with only 9months of sc2 playtime. Why is it he is able to achieve these results (and not just him, I could list other examples, such as Minigun(?) ) while other foreigners/players try to play just as hard/possibly even harder, and yet can't? It comes down to the "talent", however there is no way to measure exactly "how much" talent someone has I guess. I had this long talk with SeleCT/SLoG a little while ago actually :D about flash/jaedong vs other people.

On October 20 2011 21:20 yawn wrote:
Hard work and dedication are talents. True talent is shown after hard work. Not everyone can merely decide to spend 8 hours a day, 7 days a week to go pro. This might be why the blogs of peoples paths to becoming pro don't seem to last very long.

On October 20 2011 23:06 Chef wrote:
I think it will be difficult for you to become a pro since in professional matches the observer makes the map, not the player.

On October 20 2011 22:28 Probe1 wrote:
I watched 75% of the video, enjoyed the Testie quote and very much agree with the sentiments. I don't have anything more to say other than I agree.

One small unimportant thing: If someone said they were going to be a progamer. Wee. Lol. If someone said they were going to be JD/Flash I would rip their head off and laugh.

On October 20 2011 19:26 Blazinghand wrote:


He's saying that if you've got what it takes to be the best, you're just gonna become a pretty good player anyways just from regular play. The kind of guy who goes pro doesn't start thinking about it when he's like, Gold or whatever. He starts wanting to go pro when he's master or GM, because he's so talented that that's how good he'll get from casual play.

If you can't get to the high level on your own, without wanting to be a professional, you probably lack the raw talent to succeed. If ordinary play takes you to only silver league, that's who you are-- AND THAT'S OK. Go be an artist or a writer or a salesman and have a happy life. Play sc2. Follow esports.

On October 20 2011 23:52 Phenny wrote:
Thank you, that was quite informative and insightful.

On October 20 2011 23:33 Trowabarton756 wrote:
"if you have to ask, you aren't good enough!"

Right because there isnt 2 extra expansions that will probably change the entire game the way BW did to SC with all of 6 new units....

The only ones who fail are the ones who don't even try, and for someone like YOU to pass judgement is laughable.

On October 20 2011 23:15 VTPerfect wrote:
Yeah man Bisu Jaedong and Flash are genetically superior in every way, work harder than everyone else and are the closest thing to gods for this entire RTS generation.

But alas i wasn't born with spidy fingers and Koreans wouldn't find my face attractive so i wouldn't be talked to.

On September 06 2011 03:21 ninazerg wrote:There's more to their domination than just playing for hours each day. It's what they did with those hours that's important. Flash and Jaedong are both known for incredible consistency, multi-tasking, and especially, preparation. They both have excellent coaches who understand the game, the maps, and the opponents they have to face, so the preparations they can make for their games are very, very well-done, so when they go to face an opponent, they know what they have to do to win, and have the experience to pull it off, right down to the smallest details.

On October 21 2011 00:32 HardMacro wrote:
That "you can achieve anything as long as you put your mind and body into it" bullshit North American schools have been feeding us for the first 12 or so years of our lives, is really evident from some of the post in this thread.

Get real.

On October 21 2011 00:11 turdburgler wrote:



i wouldnt use the word talent here, its very misguiding.

its more a case of their natural competitive nature drives them to be pretty damn good even with the flawed play of someone putting in 1-2 hours a day. they are already trying hard, just not putting in the hours. the addition of the hours is what takes them to the next level. the kind of player who is in a lower league just isnt internal competitive enough to drive themselves to be their best, even when they 'dont take it seriously'

for someone like me whos in the middle this kinda holds true. im competitive but for me its all about being part of a team, i dont enjoy success on my own, so i lack the drive to push myself in 1v1. leaving me forever diamond :D, there would be no point me 'going pro' as without that internal voice forcing me to evaluate all my solo effort i would never get anywhere near pro level.

On October 21 2011 00:24 Harrad wrote:


ditto. i liked it a lot.




i'm certain that, unlike him, you can talk from experience..

On October 20 2011 20:00 Vortigan wrote:
I remember a study on SC BW players where they studied their brain activity during games and as far as i recall the result didn't really show that they processed information faster perse, rather it showed that almost all the decisions where made on instinct. So if for instance a Zerg player goes lurker against a Toss, then the Toss player would as an instinct build observers.

On October 20 2011 20:41 lastshadow wrote:



Correct, except the harsh reality is in the progaming world, if you're not a michael jordan, or close to it, you get paid absolutely terribly, and need to rely off the "glamour" (streaming, showmatches, low-scale tournaments) to make money, in which case, you're not a "real" pro-gamer like the Koreans etc.

It's like in sc1, you had the icons getting 6-figure salaries, the "just below them" getting higher-five figure, and then the rest getting somewhat mediocre salaries.

People also aren't taking into account, to be that extremely good, requires 7days a week of at minimum 8hrs of practice, let alone the VOD/replay watching you do in spare time.

On October 21 2011 08:20 VPCursed wrote:
if u have the passion, you're limitless to what u can achieve. You said your self jaedong,flash,bisu practice more then anyone.. and it shows, thats passion.
if you truly love this game, and enjoy everything from losing, to competition, to stress.. with the proper coaching, I believe there's no doubt you can reach the higer tier of sc
also, in regards to the high activity in certain areas of the brain.
casuals and pros are going to use different areas of the brain.. casuals will be using the creative part of there brain more often, while pros will be working purely from instinct/memory

On October 21 2011 08:30 lastshadow wrote:
And about your "if you have the passion, you're limitless" why has there not been another bruce lee, michael jordan, mickey mantle, larry bird, or anyone along those lines? They come around maybe 1x a decade or 1x a generation.

On October 21 2011 08:30 lastshadow wrote:


Just because they work harder (only a few extra hours if that, in fact Jaedong plays much more than Flash/Bisu (+3hrs more rumored i think?) and rarely takes breaks even on vacations. Does not mean they're not more talented.

And about your "if you have the passion, you're limitless" why has there not been another bruce lee, michael jordan, mickey mantle, larry bird, or anyone along those lines? They come around maybe 1x a decade or 1x a generation.

why is it then that all these players spending countless hours watching replays/vod's/tournaments/streams/playing, still can not achieve even low masters?

On October 21 2011 09:39 lastshadow wrote:Everyone would love to be a millionaire off being an NFL player, but life's not fair, and everyone lies when they say "you can be whatever you want".

Back to what you just previously said though, so again going back to my original point, why is it then that all these players spending countless hours watching replays/vod's/tournaments/streams/playing, still can not achieve even low masters?

On October 21 2011 10:01 Chef wrote:

Maybe:

• They don't have a long background in competitive RTS
  
• They lack correct motivational factors in their life / have bad attitude and mindset
  
• Have poorly developed coping skills with stressful lifestyles
  
• Don't know the right players
  
• Play in ways that do not help them improve
  
• Don't know how to improve
  
• Aren't actually as motivated to compete as you might think
  
• Play for fun
  
• Are kids
  
• Haven't been exposed to good learning skills or independent learning strategies

BW is extremely competitive no doubt not everyone can be the best, but there's a plethora more factors than the magical idea of inherent talent. And in SC2 basically all you need to become a top pro is the drive and the RTS background since there is still so little genuine competition and no one is really practicing like they should.

There's a large talent controversy debate to be had, but it's more effective to read studies yourself. Suffice it to say that people are born different, but that biological differences aren't the greatest factor in determining competitive success in many activities. "HEY LOOK XELLOSES BRAIN LOOKS DIFFERENT WHEN HE PLAYS SC" just screams you're a dumb ass who doesn't know how to apply information. You have a huge ego. You got banned from this community for cheating in BW because you weren't good enough to actually compete, and now you wanna tell people how talented you are for being ok at sc2??? OKTHX. I normally forgive and forget people who cheat and then try to play legitimately, but you are making a really dumb argument and I think your are letting your self-inflated views of your skill infect your judgement.

I would personally assume that in most actually competitive activities people just give up because it's too hard, or have genuine mental blocks that prevent them from improving despite the time they put into it. All you have to do is think of Artosis or Idra to see how damaging it can be when you think the game is built against you and you're stuck in one way of playing. Artosis probably could have become a pro and didn't not for lack of talent or effort, but because he couldn't get over the walls he built for himself.

On October 21 2011 10:01 Chef wrote:

Maybe:

• They don't have a long background in competitive RTS
  
• They lack correct motivational factors in their life / have bad attitude and mindset
  
• Have poorly developed coping skills with stressful lifestyles
  
• Don't know the right players
  
• Play in ways that do not help them improve
  
• Don't know how to improve
  
• Aren't actually as motivated to compete as you might think
  
• Play for fun
  
• Are kids
  
• Haven't been exposed to good learning skills or independent learning strategies

BW is extremely competitive no doubt not everyone can be the best, but there's a plethora more factors than the magical idea of inherent talent. And in SC2 basically all you need to become a top pro is the drive and the RTS background since there is still so little genuine competition and no one is really practicing like they should.

There's a large talent controversy debate to be had, but it's more effective to read studies yourself. Suffice it to say that people are born different, but that biological differences aren't the greatest factor in determining competitive success in many activities. "HEY LOOK XELLOSES BRAIN LOOKS DIFFERENT WHEN HE PLAYS SC" just screams you're a dumb ass who doesn't know how to apply information. You have a huge ego. You got banned from this community for cheating in BW because you weren't good enough to actually compete, and now you wanna tell people how talented you are for being ok at sc2??? OKTHX. I normally forgive and forget people who cheat and then try to play legitimately, but you are making a really dumb argument and I think your are letting your self-inflated views of your skill infect your judgement.

I would personally assume that in most actually competitive activities people just give up because it's too hard, or have genuine mental blocks that prevent them from improving despite the time they put into it. All you have to do is think of Artosis or Idra to see how damaging it can be when you think the game is built against you and you're stuck in one way of playing. Artosis probably could have become a pro and didn't not for lack of talent or effort, but because he couldn't get over the walls he built for himself.

On October 21 2011 11:51 lastshadow wrote:



Your list implies everything I just said. Why is it some people don't need RTS backround(I listed Minigun/Oasis as examples)? Why is it some people don't need to know how to practice, but rather learn on their own? Why should they have to be exposed, when others have not needed it? Your comments alone prove my point, that some people simply are different and able to improve faster without the need for aid.

Your mindset thing yes, I would agree it can hold back certain people, but not to the extent of making their brain completely ignore fundamental basic mechanics of Starcraft, if they actually understood strategy etc.

I also don't see how you seem to think I'm bragging about anything sc2 related? If I was bragging, am I not also bragging for the other of thousands of players able to achieve GM or Masters? No. I said when that crossroad is met, then you have a decision to make, but not everyone can make that crossroad. I would assume there is another crossroad to be met once you're at the top (A-teamers in sc1, and Code S-S(mvp/nestea/etc) in sc2)). However I've never been at that level, and thus don't know what it's like, but I hope to achieve it, but I won't know if I can until I try, because I honestly don't know. This is what I was saying. If I don't stumble upon it, I won't achieve it. I can't just work towards being that way and make it happen, it's just a goal, that I hope I am capable of achieving, but again, am completely unsure.

This just comes down to the talent vs hardwork ethic, which I again fallback to my statements about the "exceptions". What if I said this - If you put 100 geniuses' in a room, is not 1 of them the smartest genius? Does that not make them TECHNICALLY more capable to achieve higher results than the others can? Given they try just as hard? It's not saying the other "geniuses" can not compete or do well, it's simply saying they don't have the same advantage. In my sc2 analogy, "genius" is "talent".

Yes hard work can probably make you GOOD at sc2, I said that in the beginning of this video. However, you do need something EXTRA (talent) to become a Flash or Jaedong.

Sorry if maybe people are interpreting my comments wrong, I understand fully this is just my opinion, and I was just trying to give an answer to the people that were asking. Like all debates, there are agreements and disgagreements :D, so this is to be expected.


EDIT - about the IdrA comment, this is perfect. Yes, everyone gets into "mental blocks", it does take work to overcome the mental block, often times people give up, so I guess it sort of is a "talent" as well to push through the adversity. IdrA surely is overcoming his emotional problems in game, and it's also showing, so that's great for him.

On October 21 2011 13:53 mizU wrote:
Just watched the video... veryyy nice insight.
But, what about people wanting to go pro and not move to KR?

On October 21 2011 12:14 mTw|NarutO wrote:
Play hard - go pro. Everything in life is just a matter of practice.

On October 21 2011 13:53 mizU wrote:
Just watched the video... veryyy nice insight.
But, what about people wanting to go pro and not move to KR?