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EDIT: I've changed my mind. Check the third page to find out why...
Fairly short and sweet blog post today.
Last night I finally got around to watching the GSL August Finals. I sat through the first game, thought about it for a bit, and decided that I didn't want to play SC2 any more.
The problem is not that the game I watched was bad. The problem is that it was awesome: a titanic back-and-forth TvT with pretty much everything but the kitchen sink deployed at some stage. Ghosts, Nukes, Ravens, PDDs, H/S missiles, landed vikings, siege tanks, thors - I don't remember banshees or battlecruisers making an appearance but that just serves to drive the point home harder: Zerg is fucking boring.
Perhaps it's just me, but ever since release it feels like the overarching theme of the advice and guides for Zerg has been how to use fewer of the tools available to us. If I were to compile them all it would look something like this:
[G] How to play for ten minutes without gas
[G] Hatch tech and you: delaying your lair for fun and profit.
[D] A Fuck-ton of Graphs About Drones
[G] Tunneling Claws, or How to Make Casters Excited About Forcefield Micro While All Your Shit Still Dies
[G] Using Hydras (Now with more Queens!)
[Q] Do I really HAVE to Make Roaches against Hellions?
[G] Good News: You Don't Need Banelings
I concede that there have been rare, rare gems, like the Ultra/Baneling guide. But still the overall sense is that if I'm teching to a unit, let alone building one, I've somehow failed as a Zerg; I should have found a way to do it later, or not at all. The one unit it's proved viable to tech towards with the slightest urgency is the infestor, which is in the process of being nerfed. I actually made a joke post in response to someone saying that the FG damage nerf wasn't enough and that NP range should be reduced to six. I parodied the suggestion thus:
"Sometimes my Colossus get neural parasited when I let them wander around unattended. I don't want that to happen any more."
What happens? Within the week Blizzard start toying with the idea of making it impossible to neural parasite Colossus from any range. A lot of people got very upset, while others talk about how we'll just have to get by without NP now. Well, I'm tired of getting by without. I want my tech tree to be stuffed with cool things that I actively want to cut drones to get hold of. I want a sensibly positioned, sensibly priced and versatile core unit (like a hatch-tech, 1 food, non-light non-armoured plain Bio Hydra with appropriate health and DPS) that I can lean upon while I tech to something funky. I want a unit that can attack while burrowed, and to be able to rush to this tech to catch out a greedy or inattentive opponent. And since there is zero chance of anything like this coming to pass before HotS, that's when I plan - or at least hope - to resume gaming.
Thanks for reading.
 
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
You could just play Terran, if you thought that it was awesome that there was such variety
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Thats pretty funny actually...now that i think about it, zerg guides are pretty hilarious...
I guess thats what happens if people get the illusion that zerg needs to be drone based, i sitll think baneling bust, roach rushing, muta rushing zergs are the best =P
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It just goes to show that this bull shit of releasing every race half assed except Terran leads to boring games, I understand its suppose to be "Terrans Expansion" but why do P and Z users have to suffer? Money Grab Much Blizz?(Like oh my god guys, you want new units???!?!?! WELL WAIT FOR HOTS!!!!)
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Zerg is pretty boring. The most fun part is making 20 drones at once (and living!).
Of course, they purposefully left some shit out so they can buff the race with it's own expansion pack.
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On September 12 2011 23:48 Hassybaby wrote:
You could just play Terran, if you thought that it was awesome that there was such variety
I'd rather not play at all. Seriously. I've developed such a pathological aversion to the sound of marine-fire that my hotkeys would be too slippery with vomit to hit properly.
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So true, but unfortunately I can't just give up like that. I'll still be trying my hardest to get masters from diamond and I'll have to endure the game no matter how much I feel in my heart that broodwar was better.
You're not alone, friend!
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On September 12 2011 23:53 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 23:48 Hassybaby wrote:
You could just play Terran, if you thought that it was awesome that there was such variety I'd rather not play at all. Seriously. I've developed such a pathological aversion to the sound of marine-fire that my hotkeys would be too slippery with vomit to hit properly.
Man, screw marines. Go mech every game and giggle when you roast entire bases with 3 hellions
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The sad thing is that Zerg and Protoss are not going to feel complete until after their respective expansions.
Stick it out for a bit longer, try to improve your general mechanics and game sense. They will come in handy later 
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If you're that upset about this game, you probably do need a break.
I know plenty of people who find Zerg aeshetically pleasing and fun to play.
I do like Terran, but I have friends who love protoss and others who love swarming lots of meaningless units.
Each race requires a mindset.
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On September 12 2011 23:59 Khenra wrote:The sad thing is that Zerg and Protoss are not going to feel complete until after their respective expansions. Stick it out for a bit longer, try to improve your general mechanics and game sense. They will come in handy later
That was part of the 'thinking' bit I did. I decided that:
a) I'm not particularly interested in being better at something I find boring.
b) If HotS doesn't improve the feel and fun of Zerg, I won't have wasted the intervening months.
c) With Rage and Skyrim on pre-order, and Diablo III on the horizon, it's not like I'm going to be starved for entertainment.
d) I'd rather force myself not to play now, while I still kinda-sorta-want to play it, than burn through all my remaining goodwill and sack the game off permanently.
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On September 13 2011 00:07 bobwhiz wrote:
If you're that upset about this game, you probably do need a break.
I know plenty of people who find Zerg aeshetically pleasing and fun to play.
I do like Terran, but I have friends who love protoss and others who love swarming lots of meaningless units.
Each race requires a mindset.
If I gave the impression of being upset, I apologise. It was an epiphany while watching a game, not a rage-quit while playing it.
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If you are bored when playing you need either to get the fun back into the game or have a break.
As a Zerg player, I understand how you feel about other races and why trying terran is impossible for you, Try to get into some team games with some buddies of yours, find new stategies (pylon + overlord => warp zealots in the back of a walled terran base is one of my favorite).
Try to do absolutely stupid things and have fun with it (make 100 banelings and steamroll your opponent).
If you can't have fun playing a game, there's no point playing it. If you don't have fun playing starcraft anymore, have a break and try it back in a week or so.
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I pretty much agree with your assessment of things and it quite annoys me.
I find myself having less and less of a desire to log in and work on a small aspect of my game when everything seems fucked anyway.
Just this morning I had a great hold against a Terran going banshee/tank/marine all-in. After I obliterate his army what happens? the 4 cloaked banshees that are left go kill my natural hatchery because well... lings and banes can't shoot up...
The best part? I have a spore crawler TOUCHING the hatchery (out of range of course), but I can't get anything else that shoots up out in time to ward them off because:
1) banshees do way too-fucking-much DPS
2) Zerg can't shoot up, that would be imba
It's the simple shit like that that really gets me.
How could Blizzard fuck things up so badly in the first place?
How can they leave it like that for over a year?
SC2 gets less and less fun to play every day for non-T players.
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then switch races man, I play both zerg and terran, don't quit because you don't like your race, its not like we are locked into the race we play there are other buttons on the multiplayer screen than just the zerg button
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Well good luck waiting till HotS.
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On September 13 2011 00:20 Sega92 wrote:
then switch races man, I play both zerg and terran, don't quit because you don't like your race, its not like we are locked into the race we play there are other buttons on the multiplayer screen than just the zerg button
As I tried to explain, I feel an almost tangible revulsion at the thought. Maybe after I've had a break for a while I'll feel differently, but right now I'd have too much empathy with any Zerg opponent I faced.
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I think the biggest problem simply lies with the zerg players themselves.
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On September 13 2011 00:44 N3rV[Green] wrote:
I think the biggest problem simply lies with the zerg players themselves.
I think that's probably a very pleasant belief to entertain. How unfortunate that nobody who believes the same has ever switched to Zerg to show us how it's done.
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I loved your blog, and I totally understand the feeling. I like my bw zerg, I want it back 
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multiprongedness can be quite exited. I have a zerg practice partner who drops lategame with zerg, and its so strong. You also got bling mines, nydusses, freaking spine crawler rushes etc etc etc. But standard play always tend to be boring yeah, in the sense you dont make non standard units
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there's tons of great stuff to do with zerg
multipronged attacks
baneling mines
baneling overlord drops
muta harass
individual roach burrow micro(i dont think anyone's good enough to do this yet)
constant overseer contaminates to delay thors so your mutas destroy entire bases
nydus play
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On September 13 2011 00:53 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 00:44 N3rV[Green] wrote:
I think the biggest problem simply lies with the zerg players themselves. I think that's probably a very pleasant belief to entertain. How unfortunate that nobody who believes the same has ever switched to Zerg to show us how it's done.
I was P. Switched to Zerg. Hated it. Switched back to P. Switched to T. Insta-love. Still have TvT but oh well.
Was quite high masters with P, at least mid masters with Z and T.
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Random player here. I agree with your sentiment, except with Protoss; i find that to be the least interesting race to play. Playing Zerg passively and droning as hard as possible is not the only way to play zerg, really.
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It's not like Zerg has won anything huge right lately???  Not like Toss has many tech trees right??? haha go collosus or bust, lol...and the fact ur quitting b/c of a GSL "FINALS" match, and not b/c of how fun the game is, gl
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just play BW.
Its pretty good.
Its got what you want :D
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On September 13 2011 02:09 xccam wrote:
just play BW.
Its pretty good.
Its got what you want :D
really because other than defilers i dont think zerg is all that interesting and i think you still have probably the most narrow tech options
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On September 13 2011 02:11 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 02:09 xccam wrote:
just play BW.
Its pretty good.
Its got what you want :D really because other than defilers i dont think zerg is all that interesting and i think you still have probably the most narrow tech options
Well he wrote
'I want my tech tree to be stuffed with cool things that I actively want to cut drones to get hold of. I want a sensibly positioned, sensibly priced and versatile core unit (like a hatch-tech, 1 food, non-light non-armoured plain Bio Hydra with appropriate health and DPS) that I can lean upon while I tech to something funky. I want a unit that can attack while burrowed, and to be able to rush to this tech to catch out a greedy or inattentive opponent. '
Almost all of that is BW zerg.
Also at hive tech you have ling or hydra, at lair you have muta or lurker and at hive you have ultra or guardian/devourer or defiler.
As terran you have MMF or factory units or air, far less interesting tech unless you go ghosts.
And as Protoss you have templar, reaver or air, with the same gateway units being used for all matchups.
All in all I'd say zerg has the most interesting tech, but its probably all opinion really isnt it?
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I want the brood war hydra back.
Dammit.
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5/5
I lol'd pretty hard at the made up topic names.
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I feel the same way as Protoss. Vs Terran you have to defend against two builds that can't be scouted on time that requires totally different responses, and vs Zerg it seems there's not really a solid opening that leaves you on an even playing field, you're always behind and defensive until you max out. Not to mention, mass EMP is pretty rage-inducing, there's not much you can do about someone dropping 10 EMPs on your spread out army. Not much seems viable save timing attacks.
It makes for dull gameplay from my perspective, unfortunately. I played BW for something like 8 years... hopefully the expansions result in more dynamic gameplay but in the meantime it looks like I'll be spending my time doing other things.
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Zerg have pretty much the most boring units in the game.
I don't play SC2 that seriously, but I cannot fathom how people can willingly open Roaches in most matchups, I find them, along with Hydras, to be pretty stale especially since you're usually forced to sit and wait with them for most of the early game since they're so freakin slow.
I think Zerg lacks 2 things:
A technical or strong unit you look forward to making -> Defiler, Lurker, Ultralisk/Crackling, Infestors don't cut it for me, Fungal is about as entertaining as paint dry compared to Dark Swarm and PLAYGU
Certain people like massing bread and butter units that can counter most things like Marines and Stalkers. With Roaches and Lings you're usually forced into making something else especially since they aren't capable of hitting air, sometimes I just feel like massing 1 unit and face rolling -> BW Hydra
Honestly all I get a kick out of is stacking Mutas and pretending I'm Jaedong
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LOL @ the zerg guide titles it's so true
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On September 13 2011 01:45 HuKPOWA wrote:It's not like Zerg has won anything huge right lately??? Not like Toss has many tech trees right??? haha go collosus or bust, lol...and the fact ur quitting b/c of a GSL "FINALS" match, and not b/c of how fun the game is, gl
1. It's nothing to do with balance, not win/loss balance anyway. It's to do with feeling like any attempt to take the initiative or do anything interesting goes against the grain of the race I'm playing. I feel like I'm supposed to cut gas, tech the absolute minimum needed to stay alive, and basically wait to be punched in the face by my opponent in the hope that he'll break his wrist.
2. The Gsl final allowed me to see the wood past all the trees. I had been so focused on improving that I hadn't noticed I wasn't going to enjoy being better. Even if I played my way into Code S, nothing would change. I'd still just be stopping fists with my face.
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I don't play SC2 because I only play Zerg and Zerg don't feel like Zerg in this game.
The complete lack of a true core 1 supply unit just makes me sad.
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On September 13 2011 04:28 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Certain people like massing bread and butter units that can counter most things like Marines and Stalkers. With Roaches and Lings you're usually forced into making something else especially since they aren't capable of hitting air, sometimes I just feel like massing 1 unit and face rolling -> BW Hydra
That would be fun on occasion, sure, but it goes deeper than that. Terran and Protoss tech trees are quicker to traverse, and they solve their problems with tech. Terran sees roaches, or a lot of lings? The answer is bunkers and then tanks: a small number of higher-tech units. And if he happens to be teching to banshees, that's also at least decent against roaches. Same with Protoss: the answer to problems is typically a small number of higher-tech units. Losing? Down on bases? May as well try some DTs.
For Zerg, the answer always seems to be less tech. Protoss opens air? Make queens and drones and spores. Don't try to solve the problem with tech (hydra). And I wasn't kidding about the baneling thread: one of the most recent guides I read talked about how bad banelings were for the Zerg economy and how mass lings were a perfectly adequate face with which to stop the 10:00 marine/tank fist.
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On September 13 2011 05:21 Umpteen wrote:
they solve their problems with tech.
I actually don't agree with this for either Terran or Protoss.
The big problem with Zerg in comparison to the other two races is that their base army units are incapable of handling most things your opponent can throw at you.
Marines are good against EVERYTHING... seriously.
Top-level TvZ involves 8+ Barracks pumping out marines as fast as possible.
For support, you see a maximum of 2 factories and 1 starport.
The punch to the face is delivered by the marines, not the tanks.
TvP is a little different due to the Colossus, but it's the same idea, just using Marauders, not Marines.
For Protoss it's a little different, but still the same idea with Stalkers.
In PvZ, you can win entire games off of Stalkers with very few other units.
4-gate, 6-gate +1, 7-gate +2
There's pretty much no reason you don't want as many Stalkers as possible in PvZ.
PvT is a little harder because Marines and Marauders shit on everything in existence, but the same principles apply. You want as many Stalkers as you can afford while throwing a giant wall of Zealots in front of them to take all the damage, unfortunately the current state of PvT leaves room for about 0 Stalkers, but that's more of an issue with the Marine/Marauder ball IMO.
Zerg on the other hand...
Lings are nice... they're fucking awesome. Unfortunately, you typically can't get more than 10-15 of them attacking at the same time.
Roaches are shit.
Banelings are too expensive.
Hydras...
Mutas can't fight straight-up.
Corruptors can't shoot down.
Infestors need energy.
Ultras... almost as bad as Hydras.
Broodlords are actually quite good, unfortunately it takes longer to get to Broodlords than ANY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME.
Nothing in the Zerg army is capable of acting as a face-puncher. You MUST use multiple unit types or bury your opponent in money if you want to be effective.
If Blizzard made the Hydra better, Zerg would instantly become 100x more playable. Cutting tech or rushing tech would become a choice, not a requirement.
Really... the lack of the Hydra has been the core of Zerg issues from day 1.
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On September 13 2011 05:21 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 04:28 IntoTheEmo wrote:
Certain people like massing bread and butter units that can counter most things like Marines and Stalkers. With Roaches and Lings you're usually forced into making something else especially since they aren't capable of hitting air, sometimes I just feel like massing 1 unit and face rolling -> BW Hydra
That would be fun on occasion, sure, but it goes deeper than that. Terran and Protoss tech trees are quicker to traverse, and they solve their problems with tech. Terran sees roaches, or a lot of lings? The answer is bunkers and then tanks: a small number of higher-tech units. And if he happens to be teching to banshees, that's also at least decent against roaches. Same with Protoss: the answer to problems is typically a small number of higher-tech units. Losing? Down on bases? May as well try some DTs. For Zerg, the answer always seems to be less tech. Protoss opens air? Make queens and drones and spores. Don't try to solve the problem with tech (hydra). And I wasn't kidding about the baneling thread: one of the most recent guides I read talked about how bad banelings were for the Zerg economy and how mass lings were a perfectly adequate face with which to stop the 10:00 marine/tank fist.
Yeah that's a reasonable observation. You're right.
I was lurking around the SC2 strat forums and noticed new interest in like no gas builds that rely on slow lings on creep vs Protoss and whatnot. We definitely need that Power unit at the Lair stage to look forward to.
I guess that's why Mutalisks are the only thing that appeal to me aside from the standard Ling pressure/pokes; they allow you to be in the face of your opponent, instead of waiting to defend the fist with your face - as you put it. I pretty much open Spire once I feel safe with Ling numbers and whatnot regardless of their unit composition otherwise I'd be mega bored sitting around with Roaches waiting on Infestors.
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On September 13 2011 06:42 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 05:21 Umpteen wrote:
they solve their problems with tech.
I actually don't agree with this for either Terran or Protoss. The big problem with Zerg in comparison to the other two races is that their base army units are incapable of handling most things your opponent can throw at you. Marines are good against EVERYTHING... seriously. Top-level TvZ involves 8+ Barracks pumping out marines as fast as possible. For support, you see a maximum of 2 factories and 1 starport. The punch to the face is delivered by the marines, not the tanks.
They're the dps, yes, but Terrans solve the evolving problem of delivering that dps and protecting their bases with small numbers of higher tech units. Stay on pure marine too long and Zerg can lumber into a tech lead and start trading cost effectively.
Part of zerg's problem is that small numbers of high tech units aren't useful, so you need a larger army to be safe while you make them. Which also deters zergs from getting funky upgrades or utility like Nydus. And you end up with these hard to judge timings for getting corruptors against a deathball, where teching too quickly to a useless unit gets you killed. Only in sc2 could zerg have a unit, the best counter to which is to not build anything it can kill.
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Everyone aboard the T boat woooah!
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Agree. I was Zerg in Brood War, but I started Toss in SC2. I got really nostalgic when I started watching Mondragon play some zerg sc2 so I switched to zerg. The larva/drone/hatchery relationship is awesome, but there just aren't units to get excited about, so I switched back to toss.
Let's be honest, it was cool to watch Mondragon hard counter voidrays with roaches, but Mondragon's just not Mondragon without lurkers.
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I love my Zerg, I love them so, so much, but I do always feel behind in my games. I disagree about the ultra not being a unit to look forward to, though. Once you actually get ultras, they're fricken awesome.
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Don't hate me but...
Where's the ultralisk baneling gem that you're talking about. When I type "ultra bane" in the research bar, I just access three not so good thread (I'm mistaken?)
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I'll find it for you in the morning (using phone now so it's incredibly laborious).
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You probably should take a break from the game given your really strong feelings about your race... That is, assuming you are indeed deeply tied to zerg and wouldnt play another race...
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Honestly what keeps me intrested when playing Zerg is the fact that EVERYTHING I am doing could be done better.
I could be spreading creep better
I could injecting larva better
I could be moving around my army better
I could be getting drones out more efficently
I could be making better use of my units/structures that I made to survive attacks
I could be making better use of my idle units
I could be spreading and using overlords better
I could be punishing my enermies for not having proper defenses
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On September 14 2011 21:23 Bswhunter wrote:
Honestly what keeps me intrested when playing Zerg is the fact that EVERYTHING I am doing could be done better.
I could be spreading creep better
I could injecting larva better
I could be moving around my army better
I could be getting drones out more efficently
I could be making better use of my units/structures that I made to survive attacks
I could be making better use of my idle units
I could be spreading and using overlords better
I could be punishing my enermies for not having proper defenses
Oh, sure; I mean, this isn't me getting bored because I'm #1 grandmaster with nowhere to go. As a purely abstract challenge there are endless ways in which I can improve, and until recently that was sufficient distraction to keep me playing.
It's like Tetris. You can always get better at Tetris. But at some point you should probably take a step back and think about what it is you're getting better at and where it's leading. And some of the relationships between the races in SC2 - which are ultimately dictated by the tech-trees - are distinctly unappealing to me, no matter what level I end up playing at.
Terran has the ability to just be safe against Zerg, really for as long as he feels like being safe. The safety and speed of teching, the synergy between his (invariably long-range) units as each comes online, how cost-effective each higher-tech unit is in small numbers when forced, the fact that the tech needed to counter anything is (in practice) only ever one building or add-on away and usually not even that (classic example being medivac-producing starports ready and waiting to hose out vikings at the first sniff of corruptors), and the strength of the marine glue holding it all together in a pinch - Terran always has the last word.
That would be fine, if turtling safely were the defining quality of the race. But it isn't. Zerg's lack of an accessible, versatile core unit, or anything capable of catching his opponent off-guard, means that not only can a Terran turtle, or prepare a 'safe' push (like marine/tank: something that can't be pre-empted and has no defensive vulnerabilities but which must simply be absorbed head-on), but there are great chasms of time where he can be ok preparing a very one-dimensional and 'unsafe' push such as marauder/hellion or banshees.
No question, these can be scouted, or at least inferred, and dealt with. But they dictate Zerg's options to such an extent that the Terran can prepare his followup on the loading screen. A good example here is 2-rax into hellions into banshees: the best response to the first attack is the worst for dealing with the followup, both being useless against the third. So Zerg is encouraged to play passively, delay tech, and build spines, queens, spores and drones, none of which are nimble enough to facilitate counter-aggression. And it works - works so well that I'm sure many people reading this are thinking "Huh; who does 2-rax into hellion into banshee any more?" without truly appreciating the price Zerg has paid to make themselves safe.
That's one example of the kind of abusive relationship that exists in the game. But what's happened is that a kind of Stockholm syndrome has set in. Zergs have bought into the no-tech strategies that have been forced upon them, and started to write guides about how to push the envelope even further. And that's where I was, grubbing around making drones and lings and static defence while my opponents took to the sky in invisible fire-chariots, until I watched the GSL finals and finally saw myself for the cringing cur I had become.
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QQ bro youre just shit
zergs probably the strongest race right now
and this is coming from a 800~ pt master ze
User was banned for this post.
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On September 15 2011 05:19 1a wrote:
QQ bro youre just shit
zergs probably the strongest race right now
and this is coming from a 800~ pt master ze
That doesn't mean zerg can't be unappealing to him in an aesthetic manner. Hell, I'm a higher ranked masters (not with zerg, and not like either fact matters), and while I agree zerg is pretty damn strong, I find the race rather unappealing to play.
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Well I play zerg because when I hear someone say they play anything else, I can laugh at how easy their race is
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Update:
I changed my mind
The first reason was that we started getting HotS info much sooner than I'd anticipated, which encouraged me to resume practicing so that I could better enjoy the Beta when it starts.
The second reason was that I had the most god-awful problems getting Rage to work on my PC, and when I did get it working I realised that my Core 2 Duo was criminally bottlenecking my 5870 graphics card, and I decided to postpone playing until I could afford to upgrade.
The third reason was watching Stephano on his stream. He made playing Zerg look less like stopping fists with your face and more like preying upon small girls that have wandered into the forest to take Grandma her supper.
So I'm back on/off the wagon, depending upon how you look at it, and actively trying to work fun stuff like burrow, Nydus and drops into my games rather than worrying about them being inefficient.
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EPT
