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Ever since I got the Top 8 spot in my Silver division, I've been playing a lot of Gold players/Platinum players... But the thing is, every time I play either player in those divisions I get cheesed a lot (I'm protoss btw). I tend to be able to beat them in the mid game, but for some reason I can't fend off proxy gateways/6 pool/2 rax/ 1-1-1... I've tried pretty much everything from blocking my ramp with sentries and defending with cannons or immediately go air.
It doesn't work. Honestly they're a real pain, and I know it's part of winning but I can't counter those at all. I can usually hold off a cannon rush and some sort of proxy hatch (yes, these people will do anything to win) but not those mentioned earlier.
What can I do when these things happen? I always scout my opponent, and usually spot their cheese before it happens but my brain just freezes and can't figure out what to do next.
I've played very little silver league players now (about 3 out of 10 games) and I usually have a big win ratio over them, it's just cheesy gold/plat league players that I don't know what to do against...
Any strategies would really help :/
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
It really depends on the map, the matchup, etc. Against proxy 2gate, you want to make 2 gates of your own and make zealots to defend, against cannon rush you'll need to kill the cannon-making probe... do you ahve any replays that particularly caused you trouble?
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I just played against a guy who cheesed me with 2 gate on Shakuras just a moment ago. I don't know why but I placed 3 pylons on my ramp to delay the zealots...
I don't know why I did that but it turned out horrible...
I'll try to upload it in a minute.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
okay! I like to use drop.sc for replay uploads, because it's pretty convenient. there are lots of sc2 replay uploading sites, so try one of those rather than a generic upload site if possible.
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Alright I used sc2rep.com but here's the game I was talking about:
This
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If you scout the cheese early it should be easy to defend
vs 6 pool: wall off + cannon / units depending on whether you got gate or forge first.
vs 2 gate: I don't know the exact response but if you get a stalker out you should be able to micro against the zealots. Anyway, if you get to his base and see no pylon or gates or anthing I'd definately get a probe to scout outside your base because if you can pull some probes to take out the pylon powering the gates its over.
1/1/1 isn't a cheese, its a strong 1 base attack so there is no easy answer for this.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 07 2011 08:09 Bargil wrote:Alright I used sc2rep.com but here's the game I was talking about: This
Here's a video in which I outline your replay:
http://www.twitch.tv/blazinghand/b/294443666
Summary:
1) pay attention to the minimap; you had vision of his gateways 45 seconds before you responded
2) instead of walling with pylons lay down gateways of your own and fight his zealots with your own zealots, he'll break through a wall eventually unless you have cannons.
3) if you DO pylon wall, start the wall around 15 seconds after he starts his zealots. You started your wall about a minute before he started his zealots
4) ultimately you lost this game because you were producing out of 1 gateway and he was producing out of 2 gateways. making a 2nd gateway earlier will let you match his unit count.
It basically looks like the cheese freaked you out a bit and you overreacted. Try to match his production facility count, you still have a 10-second defender's advantage in these circumstances.
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Don't worry too much about it. Coping with high-pressure situations take time and practise. Just remember to keep your cool. Harder to do but with practise, it'll come.
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Thanks guys. I saw your video Blazinghand, and I have to agree I kind of over-reacted a little bit. To be honest, I knew the guy was up to something in the beginning since I scouted and actually saw the mini-map first. I was then blank after that and had no idea what to do.
Now I know how to react after this happens, so thanks for the pointers.
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Enough, got cheesed the last 10 games in a row!
I got into SC2 recently after seeing Husky commentaries because i was fashinated by it and thought was a pretty mature game, well...bollocks
It's just full of kids trying to get cheap wins, do you call Cheese playing the game? do they have fun? do they feel accomplished after it?
Of course they do it to ladder up quickly and make lots of money as progamers and then discover that after 3min mark they don't know what to do obviously.
I'm a pretty decent sim racer and it's the same with people trying to bump their way to victory, but you know what? usually are mature ppl and that doesn't happen and if they do it they get kicked and soon will have no one to play with.
Because the meaning of a game is to have fun and get the full experience, how you do that if you cheat?
I got placed bronze after the placement matches as i had no previous experience, cool, i'll learn and practice but how can i do that? the only games i loose are against these idiots and are 50% of them, really i win all the actual games but not against cheaters and that infouriates me, some days it's one cheese after the other like 10 in a row.
Sorry but it's not a serious game one that allows that, it's not "strategy" or "unortodox" its just cheating, it's like if in counterstrike you play someone with mods and shit and you need to learn to hack back to win....really ppl?
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replays would help. Also, scouting is super important.
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@op and @almightyraiden: I'm in gold and I'm only cheesed maybe one in six games or even less. (Is it worse on the NA server?) Cheese strats are actually not that hard to learn to defend against, so your performance against cheesers will improve faster than your performance against other strats. Also, defending against cheese is a lot more creative and interesting than cheesing, on the defending side the games can be quite fun.
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If you're dying to cheese a lot, then you most likely need to work on your unit control. You need to learn how to stop cheese, it happens in all leagues. I'm in masters and I just lost to 7 pool. Adding imaginary "rules" to the game will only inhibit your growth. If you want to get good at the game, you have to get past the cheese. If you are only playing for fun and you hate cheese, stick to custom games among friends and play no rush 30.
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I think i got cheesed like 10 times during my laddering this week, and this week was the first week i started to ladder by the way.
Last night i got void ray rushed in two games. One was a ladder 1v1 and another was a 3v3.
In the 1v1 game i did spot that he was up to something, early gas and tuns of cannons at the ramp, when i pushed with Mariene/Maruader comp. This was very funney though as it created a tiny choke for him to sucide his zealots into my army, however i couldnt get past that dame cannon line, so i backed off to the centre xelnaga watchtower.
I then scanned and noticed that he had 1 void ray, i built turrets from excess mins (I 2raxed FE that game bdw) and started work on a thor. However it wasnt enough, i spotted his voids trying to sneak up to my base and i ran my mariens (and stupidly my maruaders to them) The mariens got decimated, and i was almost finished my thor. But it was too late, he was had destroyed my tech lab before the thor could complete.
If i had gotten the thor out I would've used my scv's to repair and my spare riens to take out the voids. But im not sur if thst was enough.
The 3v3 was just a straight up void ray/phionex rush, my team consisted of 2zergs and tarren(me). Least i managed to leave with a idra comment hehheh:D
I did however manage to hold off a dt rush during the week, and i won! I scaned just in time to see the dt's and by the time his small force reached my expo i scanned again and killed them, with scv's and riens. I then built up a MMM/raven force, pushed and won the game!
Its all about scouting and spotting anything strange with ur opponents opening. Day 9 did do a Newbie tuesday on Loosing to early pressure (it should be in the recommended threads). He noted a few things, like if you see a Zealot/stalker warpgate then that should be normal, but if you see early gas or if he wont let you scout, then be prepared.
And its true that the pros do get cheesed, Slayer's_SDragon, got void ray rushed today on his stream and I even saw jinro loose to it during the week. I did loose 4/5 of my placement matches to cheese by the way.
Edit:, oh and one more thing I learnt from day 9, if your oppoment makes a late glhf, at say 25-45 seconds into the game, then expect him to cheese!:D
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@Shoop yeah you 're right i was just really upset, last time i got cannons down my ramp, i walled in myself, went for blink stalker and into his base, unfortunately as i was about to take down his nexus the pc froze :-( and he got the victory.. But yes it can be fun to win against cheese and shout "in your face" now i scout early and around my base as well and i always spot it, just need to work on my response as i always get a zealot but not enough at that point, maybe i should send the probes as well?
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I would recommend focusing on your response to one cheese at a time.
A little while ago, I was having trouble defending 6 and 7 pools in ZvZ. So, I went and found replays or videos of pro players fending it off. Once I'd watched a few, and read a few threads about it on TL, I started practicing my response. At first, this meant playing custom games just by myself. That included fake scouting, and beginning my reaction at that moment (e.g., taking drones off gas). After a few games like this, the response was mapped out in my head like any standard build. At that point, I went back to laddering, and since then I haven't lost a single game (outright) to that particular cheese. I'm actually happy now if I see someone doing this, because it means I'll very likely have a large advantage.
So, I'd recommend just focusing on a single response until you are entirely comfortable with it. If you can find a training partner (ideally somebody who is good at the cheese, perhaps even in a higher league), all the better.
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Cheese is absolutely part of the game. I have never cheesed (in a laddder game), but I will say from experience that for me, cheesing is actually the most difficult way to play. It requires alot more intense multitasking than macro (at least for me). Basically, the way to beat cheese is to watch people beat it. Anybody you hear saying "Cheese isn't the real way to play!" is just whining  .
Watching pros is a really good idea, or streams because you will inevitably see cheese. Otherwise, just playing a lot against it, and eventually you'll get used to it and won't lose much anymore.
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EPT
