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On August 03 2011 05:24 Sureibl wrote:
A lot of people here are talking about how reddit has overblown this; how it isn't a big deal; etc. Well, as some random sc2 spectator, I want to contradict this view. Sure, the fact that some guy took some other's chair isn't that important, but it's one piece of a much wider picture.
Let me give some background. I like to contribute to esports; I want it to grow and be successful, but I don't have unlimited money to spend and I have to pick and choose which organisations to support. I want to support the people who seem to have an attitude I can get behind and the ability to expand and improve. It's reports like this which give me the information I need to make that decision.
Time and again, I've seen NASL employees act like they are entitled to my money, and act derisively towards fellows fans, and while there is often an apology, it's often of the same form: 'Oh, well we're sorry but anyway you guys are a bunch of losers / wrong lol' and frankly I find that insulting. Maybe this isn't how it is meant, maybe these are all great guys who are genuinely doing their best, but this is how these things appear to me as an uninformed spectator.
In contrast, my experience with, say, MLG has been much better. While a couple of MLGs ago I was hugely disappointed with the experience and a bit annoyed, I feel that Sundance represented the company well and make a genuine apology, and things have much improved since then. It's for this reason I'm more than happy to pay for my Silver membership, and I would even if Sundance and Xeris' positions in this story were reversed - this alone wouldn't be enough to change my mind, but it's part of a wider picture.
I know this is long, but I wanted to fully explain why I feel reporting on stuff like this is important.
I appreciate your perspective on the situation, and I'd like to ask what I can do to help change your opinion? Why for example, do you consider a Sundance apology more valid than mine? I'd love to know how I can better help assuage people's concerns!
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Xeris apology is just like what I expected it to be.... I was joking but sorry HA good try Xeris!!!!
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I wish to thank everyone who helped on reddit to bring this to my attention. If all of you were to stand next MLG, the seating problem is solved.
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On August 03 2011 04:21 Xeris wrote:
I don't mean to say he's responsible. But it seems like the more honorable thing to do, if you have a problem with someone, to tell them to their face rather than wait until you say something in a more anonymous setting where the person you're accusing can't even defend him/herself.
He seemed totally ok when he was talking and sitting behind me, I thought he was just joking around. To come home later, and see the thread he posted, it was a pretty big shock to me. That's true. It would have shown courtesy to explain what he meant.
I suppose he somehow thought what he said was sufficient. That, or he was judgmental and dismissed you as a jerk.
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You know, it would sound more like an apology if you weren't taking sneaky shots while saying sorry...
I wish you would have had the courage to actually say what you thought about me to my face rather than wait until you got home to write something behind your computer screen, but that's ok.
... Why do you do dis if you wanted to 'apologize'?
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Xeris was being rude, I think that much is undisputed.
Now maybe he was having a bad day.. maybe he was stressed out.. or maybe he just earned it with years of hard work. Regardless, when you're a known entity in a large public event, you can't expect that dickishness of this sort will go unnoticed. I don't think the fault is with the individual bringing this event to light.
After all was said and done, all Xeris could do was to try to damage control with a public apology, which he did to the best of his abilities. Some bought it as sincere, others did not. However, going around saying its the individual's fault for publicizing this will achieve nothing other than fuel the fire further.
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To be honest, I didn't see any of the fans go on rant posts about not getting into the after parties or player's lounge when they tried, because a few did and got turned away. Had they been invited, they would have been let in with no arguments. The only difference is that there was more than enough room for additional people. In this case, there were 2 invited parties and not enough seating with a sprinkle of communication difficulties. They both deserved the seats and couldn't have them.
THIS. IS. sEat-SPORTS.
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On August 03 2011 06:03 CanucksJC wrote:You know, it would sound more like an apology if you weren't taking sneaky shots while saying sorry... Show nested quote +I wish you would have had the courage to actually say what you thought about me to my face rather than wait until you got home to write something behind your computer screen, but that's ok. ... Why do you do dis if you wanted to 'apologize'?
He's not saying this to the guy whose seat he took, but the guy that saw it and posted about it later.
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On August 03 2011 05:31 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 05:24 Sureibl wrote:
A lot of people here are talking about how reddit has overblown this; how it isn't a big deal; etc. Well, as some random sc2 spectator, I want to contradict this view. Sure, the fact that some guy took some other's chair isn't that important, but it's one piece of a much wider picture.
Let me give some background. I like to contribute to esports; I want it to grow and be successful, but I don't have unlimited money to spend and I have to pick and choose which organisations to support. I want to support the people who seem to have an attitude I can get behind and the ability to expand and improve. It's reports like this which give me the information I need to make that decision.
Time and again, I've seen NASL employees act like they are entitled to my money, and act derisively towards fellows fans, and while there is often an apology, it's often of the same form: 'Oh, well we're sorry but anyway you guys are a bunch of losers / wrong lol' and frankly I find that insulting. Maybe this isn't how it is meant, maybe these are all great guys who are genuinely doing their best, but this is how these things appear to me as an uninformed spectator.
In contrast, my experience with, say, MLG has been much better. While a couple of MLGs ago I was hugely disappointed with the experience and a bit annoyed, I feel that Sundance represented the company well and make a genuine apology, and things have much improved since then. It's for this reason I'm more than happy to pay for my Silver membership, and I would even if Sundance and Xeris' positions in this story were reversed - this alone wouldn't be enough to change my mind, but it's part of a wider picture.
I know this is long, but I wanted to fully explain why I feel reporting on stuff like this is important. I appreciate your perspective on the situation, and I'd like to ask what I can do to help change your opinion? Why for example, do you consider a Sundance apology more valid than mine? I'd love to know how I can better help assuage people's concerns!
Well, when Sundance took somebody's seat, he gave it back. So you should probably start by not stealing any more seats.
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Why would you 'joke' about earning it from years of hardwork. Just makes you look like a huge dbag.
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Oh yeah, btw, what do you guys think about changing the NASL to the Not Allowed to Sit League?
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On August 03 2011 06:03 CanucksJC wrote:You know, it would sound more like an apology if you weren't taking sneaky shots while saying sorry... Show nested quote +I wish you would have had the courage to actually say what you thought about me to my face rather than wait until you got home to write something behind your computer screen, but that's ok. ... Why do you do dis if you wanted to 'apologize'?
Uh? Because I'm not apologizing to the guy who made the reddit thread. I'm apologizing to the guy whose seat I took.
The guy who made the reddit thread =/= the guy whose seat I took.
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To be fair, I can completely imagine thinking that people are being sarcastic and thus being sarcastic in return to them.
This is one of the reasons why I felt the need to basically stop all of my sarcasm. If you are right and use it in the right situation, you end up looking sorta funny, but everyone forgets about it in the end. If you are wrong and are sarcastic in a misjudged context, you've basically just acted like a complete dick.
Sarcasm just isn't worth the risk.
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MURICA15980 Posts
Spoken like a true politician.
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On August 03 2011 06:50 Emporio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:03 CanucksJC wrote:You know, it would sound more like an apology if you weren't taking sneaky shots while saying sorry... I wish you would have had the courage to actually say what you thought about me to my face rather than wait until you got home to write something behind your computer screen, but that's ok. ... Why do you do dis if you wanted to 'apologize'? He's not saying this to the guy whose seat he took, but the guy that saw it and posted about it later.
That....makes so much sense lol. -10 from my preconceptions of potential douchebaggery.
I think NOW it's all clear, then. Thanks for clearing that last bit up!
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On August 02 2011 12:34 Warrice wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 12:15 byanymeans wrote:
I love the difference in respect levels between this thread and the reddit thread.
I dont think thats it. People on tl cant post about it if they dont have anything positive to say or they will face consequences, so they just dont post. However anything goes on reddit, so thats where you would see a more true response i think.
Exactly... this is a great place for anyone well known in the community to make an apology like Xeris did here and have plenty of positive responses. I don't know Xeris, but from reading others in the community and their experiences, I'm gonna have to say this one occasion was VERY LIKELY not just a bad hair day. His apology is more like PR than anything.
And Xeris with the "what else can I do to assuage the fans concerns?" - actions speak louder than words. It won't be easy and it won't be something you can type up here.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On August 03 2011 08:08 EscPlan9 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 12:34 Warrice wrote:On August 02 2011 12:15 byanymeans wrote:
I love the difference in respect levels between this thread and the reddit thread.
I dont think thats it. People on tl cant post about it if they dont have anything positive to say or they will face consequences, so they just dont post. However anything goes on reddit, so thats where you would see a more true response i think. Exactly... this is a great place for anyone well known in the community to make an apology like Xeris did here and have plenty of positive responses. I don't know Xeris, but from reading others in the community and their experiences, I'm gonna have to say this one occasion was VERY LIKELY not just a bad hair day. His apology is more like PR than anything. And Xeris with the "what else can I do to assuage the fans concerns?" - actions speak louder than words. It won't be easy and it won't be something you can type up here.
Actions do speak louder than words, but to be fair: he's buying the guy a pass to the next MLG or NASL and giving him his press / VIP pass. If actions do speak louder than words, I'd say Xeris' actions speak louder than the words of people who aren't the offended party.
Given what happened, I'd say that's reasonably fair of Xeris. Should he have been nicer in the first place? Absolutely. Especially if he was a dick. But that's already passed, and he's trying to make amends. Even if he has a history of caustic interactions with others, it's possible he's learned from this episode to be more gentle in the future. Or not-- but we'll see. But if every time he's a dick to someone in the future he buys them passes and gives them press passes to make up for it, maybe that's not as bad, and maybe he'll think to sit more carefully next time.
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On August 03 2011 05:31 Xeris wrote:
Why for example, do you consider a Sundance apology more valid than mine? I'd love to know how I can better help assuage people's concerns!
Here's some specific reasons why Sundance's apology is more valid than yours. Also consider Sundance was not apologizing for purposely being inconsiderate to people, he was apologizes for improper preparation for his tourney, which he later fixed in subsequent tournies. But you asked for it, so here it is:
On August 02 2011 11:52 Xeris wrote:
I didn't mean to steal your seat, or anyone's seat for that matter -- I saw two empty seats and I sat in one of them.
You didn't mean to steal their seats, but you moved their stuff off the seats, sat in them, and refused to relinquish the seats when the owner of the "stuff" returned. Sounds like you meant to steal the seats to me.
The whole weekend was insanely frustrating trying to find seats, there were people with spectator passes sitting in the player/vip area for almost the entire event, the security didn't do the best job of policing that area so it was like a warzone.
Oh, so it's security's fault that you stole the seats, not your own? That's like a guy breaking into my car blaming the lack of police presence for his criminal behavior.
I could have, and should have given you the seat back. For that, I really apologize.
Coulda woulda shoulda, but didn't. Actions speak louder than words. You can't judge a man by what he says, only by what he does.
I feel bad because I handled it poorly, and it wasn't my intention to be rude in any way.
You feel bad because you got called out. It wasn't your intention to be publicly ridiculed for being rude. You obviously meant to be rude in that situation.
I was standing in front, and saw two empty seats. I sat down with Evoli because the seats were empty.
Were the seats really empty or did you move their belongings out of the seats? Leaving out info like this makes your apology seem insincere and only serves to cast doubt upon yourself. Usually, in an apology, you don't leave out one of the key reasons why you're apologizing. You try to make it look like you've done nothing wrong and are going above and beyond the call of duty to apologize. Basically, you're flat out lying in your apology, unless of course there was nothing in the seats, in which case the guys at Reddit are lying.
...and I never laughed at him. The guy behind me was joking about seat stealing with his friends [at least that's what I thought at the time]. So he asked me why I stole the guy's seat despite him earning it, and I joked that I earned it too through years of hard work [I became the manager of a good SC2 team because I worked hard for a long time to get that position, etc].
You never laughed at him, but you joked with the guy behind you about stealing his seats. That sounds like laughing at him to me.
I wish you would have had the courage to actually say what you thought about me to my face rather than wait until you got home to write something behind your computer screen, but that's ok.
From your own words, he told you what he thought to your face. What else was he going to do? Make a big scene about stealing someone else's seats after you dismiss his concerns in a joking manner, saying how you have the right to sit there because you earned it? There was really nothing else he could have done at that point, and the fact that you're calling someone out like this in the middle of your apology only serves to further discredit your apology as being genuine.
Initially, I didn't know that the guy was a contest winner. I told the security lady that there were dozens of seats being taken by people with spectator passes and that they should free up more seats and I'd gladly move if she would get myself and Evoli two more seats. It didn't really go anywhere, the security lady walked away and the guy whose seat I sat in left, and I didn't see or hear from them for the rest of the time.
Ignorance is no excuse for being rude. And again, you're trying to shift the blame to someone else. The guy who's seats you stole left? Wow, what a shocker. What else was he going to do, sit on your lap after you refused to get up?
To summarize:
-In your apology, you continually try to shift the blame.
-You are not being completely forthcoming about what you're even apologizing for (stealing empty seats or moving peoples' stuff out of the seats to steal them).
-You continually claim that you did not intend to be rude or that you did not mean to steal the seats, when all of the first hand accounts of your actions (including your own accounts) tell a different story.
-Calling out the Reddit guy/community in the middle of an apology makes it look like you have ulterior motives for apologizing.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On August 03 2011 08:19 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:52 Xeris wrote:I could have, and should have given you the seat back. For that, I really apologize. Coulda woulda shoulda, but didn't. Actions speak louder than words. You can't judge a man by what he says, only by what he does.
At this point I'd like to note that Xeris is actually buying the guy a pass to the next MLG or NASL Finals and giving him his press pass / VIP pass... so I mean, in this case I'd say his actions speak louder than your words.
On August 03 2011 08:19 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:52 Xeris wrote:
I wish you would have had the courage to actually say what you thought about me to my face rather than wait until you got home to write something behind your computer screen, but that's ok. From your own words, he told you what he thought to your face. What else was he going to do? Make a big scene about stealing someone else's seats after you dismiss his concerns in a joking manner, saying how you have the right to sit there because you earned it? There was really nothing else he could have done at that point, and the fact that you're calling someone out like this in the middle of your apology only serves to further discredit your apology as being genuine.
Um... dude. Read carefully, and you'll see: Xeris isn't criticizing the guy whose seat he took, he's criticizing the guy who posted the incomplete, incorrect story on Reddit...
Look, maybe the apology is bad. Even so, actions speak louder than words, and he's remunerating the guy for his loss by getting him a new pass and VIP thingy. Isn't that good enough?
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On August 03 2011 08:19 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:52 Xeris wrote:
I didn't mean to steal your seat, or anyone's seat for that matter -- I saw two empty seats and I sat in one of them. You didn't mean to steal their seats, but you moved their stuff off the seats, sat in them, and refused to relinquish the seats when the owner of the "stuff" returned. Sounds like you meant to steal the seats to me.
That's not "seat theft" unless it's been pre-established that the person who left something in the seat has ownership of the seat. In this case, the person in question had a claim to the seat by being a contest winner, but Xeris didn't know that. Moving a bag off a seat and then sitting in it isn't "theft" if we're looking at a first-come first-serve seating situation. Which, after the fact, it was determined to be by event regulations.
On August 03 2011 08:19 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:52 Xeris wrote:
The whole weekend was insanely frustrating trying to find seats, there were people with spectator passes sitting in the player/vip area for almost the entire event, the security didn't do the best job of policing that area so it was like a warzone. Oh, so it's security's fault that you stole the seats, not your own? That's like a guy breaking into my car blaming the lack of police presence for his criminal behavior.
Your analogy is fucking retarded because moving a bag off a seat and breaking into a car aren't the same thing at all, not even by degree. Xeris mistakenly assumed that he was dealing with a person with only a spectator pass who was sitting in the VIP area, meaning that he shouldn't have been there, and that he was only mistakenly allowed there due to event confusion.
On August 03 2011 08:19 Devolved wrote:
Were the seats really empty or did you move their belongings out of the seats? Leaving out info like this makes your apology seem insincere and only serves to cast doubt upon yourself. Usually, in an apology, you don't leave out one of the key reasons why you're apologizing. You try to make it look like you've done nothing wrong and are going above and beyond the call of duty to apologize. Basically, you're flat out lying in your apology, unless of course there was nothing in the seats, in which case the guys at Reddit are lying.
To describe a seat without a person in it as "empty" may be a misrepresentation, but it's not "flat out lying."
On August 03 2011 08:19 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:52 Xeris wrote:
...and I never laughed at him. The guy behind me was joking about seat stealing with his friends [at least that's what I thought at the time]. So he asked me why I stole the guy's seat despite him earning it, and I joked that I earned it too through years of hard work [I became the manager of a good SC2 team because I worked hard for a long time to get that position, etc]. You never laughed at him, but you joked with the guy behind you about stealing his seats. That sounds like laughing at him to me.
I'm sorry Xeris made a joking response to what he thought was a joking question. Maybe if he kills himself your anger will be appeased.
On August 03 2011 08:19 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 11:52 Xeris wrote:
I wish you would have had the courage to actually say what you thought about me to my face rather than wait until you got home to write something behind your computer screen, but that's ok. From your own words, he told you what he thought to your face. What else was he going to do? Make a big scene about stealing someone else's seats after you dismiss his concerns in a joking manner, saying how you have the right to sit there because you earned it? There was really nothing else he could have done at that point, and the fact that you're calling someone out like this in the middle of your apology only serves to further discredit your apology as being genuine.
He could have explained what was going on about the contest (which would have taken all of approximately ten seconds of civil speech, hardly a HUGE SCENE), or he could have contacted Xeris about it afterwards in a private channel. "Nothing else he could have done"? What a fucking joke.
On August 03 2011 08:19 Devolved wrote:
To summarize:
-In your apology, you continually try to shift the blame.
-You are not being completely forthcoming about what you're even apologizing for (stealing empty seats or moving peoples' stuff out of the seats to steal them).
-You continually claim that you did not intend to be rude or that you did not mean to steal the seats, when all of the first hand accounts of your actions (including your own accounts) tell a different story.
-Calling out the Reddit guy/community in the middle of an apology makes it look like you have ulterior motives for apologizing.
He was sorry because he thought that he had taken the seat of a person with a spectator pass with no other claim to the VIP area, rather than of a contest winner, which he had every right to do. The Reddit community is, of course, approximately /b/-level when it comes to being out for blood and calling them out on their retardation is utterly appropriate except where Xeris doing so would just make them angrier, but I have no qualms about doing so.
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