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Blogs > jodogohoo
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jodogohoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada2533 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 14:13:56
July 20 2011 13:25 GMT
#1
Currently in my life, I have found and met many people who have great amounts of money and haven't done any actual beneficial work for society to earn their money. I see this mainly with young people spending their parents money.

I feel this picture doesn't look right. People should have to earn the money the spend. However I'm not sure how we would come up with a general agreed upon standard for "earning and deserving money".

But yeah, the point I'm trying to get is that the amount of money a person has should represent how much good they've done for other people.

What do you guys think about this?

*
DamageControL
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States4222 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 13:33:10
July 20 2011 13:31 GMT
#2
What are you trying to establish? There's no argument here.

edit: Rarely are rhetorical questions a good form of argument, by the way. I also don't see or understand any sort of logical progression here. You make many unwarranted statements and assertions, but no real argument.
Liquid | SKT
chomsky
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada97 Posts
July 20 2011 13:31 GMT
#3
I think you are referring to a meritocracy, and we don't really live in one, no.
"Not to take this post too seriously, but..." -Chef
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
July 20 2011 13:35 GMT
#4
From Zeitgeist Addendum (Peter Joseph)

Society today, is composed of a series of institutions. From political institutions, legal institutions, religious institutions. To institutions of social class, familiar values, and occupational specialization.

It is obvious, the profound influence these traditionalized structures have in shaping our understandings and perspectives. Yet, of all the social institutions, we are born into, directed by, and conditioned upon.. There seems to be no system as taken for granted, and misunderstood, as the monetary system.

Taking on nearly religious proportions, the established monetary institution exists as one of the most unquestioned forms of faith there is. How money is created, the policies by which it is governed, and how it truly affects society, are unregistered interests of the great majority of the population.

In a world where 1% of the population owns 40% of the planets wealth. In a world where 34.000 children die every single day from poverty and preventable diseases, and, where 50% of the world’s population lives on less than 2 dollars a day… One thing is clear. Something is very wrong. And, whether we are aware of it or not, the lifeblood of all of our established institutions, and thus society itself, is money.

Therefore, understanding this institution of monetary policy is critical to understanding why our lives are the way they are. Unfortunately, economics is often viewed with confusion and boredom. Endless streams of financial jargon, coupled with intimidating mathematics, quickly deters people from attempts at understanding it. However, the fact is: The complexity associated with the financial system is a mere mask. Designed to conceal one of the most socially paralyzing structures, humanity has ever endured.
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6592 Posts
July 20 2011 13:41 GMT
#5
Some people put too much importance over money... some too little. It's better than bartering for all of our goods though. I'll trade you a chicken for sc2? Just doesn't seem as appealing.
LiquidDota Staff
beberly
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States117 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 13:54:32
July 20 2011 13:52 GMT
#6
On July 20 2011 22:25 jodogohoo wrote:
What the hell is money? What does it represent? What does it do?

These are questions I want to ask yourself. What the shit is money? We all know it's what we exchange for goods. You want to buy sc2, you need money.

But where the fuck do we get money? Well we get money from doing work. Or at least that's where we should be getting money.

You do a job, you do a task, you do a service. You are doing something for the benefit of others, that's why you get paid. And with that, you go buy other shit that other people spent their time and effort to make for you.

Look the point I'm trying to get at is that the amount of money you have should represent the amount of good you've done for others. But is this the case in today's society?

Have you "earned" you're money?
I personally haven't earned any of the money I've spent or possess.



This will hopefully be a part of a series of blogs dealing with my view on money in today's society.

+ Show Spoiler +
Feel free to tear rip wholes in my argument. I can handle being wrong.


The bolded section is where I think your argument breaks down. The preceding statements are more correct. When we provide a good or service, we are paid not for the amount of "good" that we do for society, but for how much value (value in the sense that they can use that good or service to create more wealth for themselves, though sometimes this isn't the sole measure of value) the individual places on our good or service. It is not a normative payment for some "goodness" that is created.

Very few individuals will pay someone more for a service than the amount by which they value that service. You have "earned" your money in the sense that you have provided goods or services to your employers that they value at least that much. Otherwise they would have fired your ass and hired someone whose goods/services they valued more.

Remember that money is simply a tool to get us around the matching problems that come with a barter-based economy. If I raise chickens, sometimes I want something that I can't pay for with chickens, and I don't want to spend time trading 17 times to get something that my cobbler (for example) wants when I need a new pair of shoes. All money does is allow us to reduce transaction costs. It represents value, it doesn't have any intrinsic value like the goods or services we provide do.
LML
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Germany1768 Posts
July 20 2011 13:58 GMT
#7
what, why would I have to do good to other people to earn money?
What if my job totally does not involve other people, as mine does, I am not suppossed to earn alot of money for what I really love to do?
That almost makes sense.

Besides, I guess it's okay, I served my social duty in a hospital, 8 months of work with people should qualify me, right?
LML
jodogohoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada2533 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 14:12:53
July 20 2011 13:58 GMT
#8
On July 20 2011 22:31 chomsky wrote:
I think you are referring to a meritocracy, and we don't really live in one, no.

How close are we to living in one? "north america"

On July 20 2011 22:35 Zorkmid wrote:
From Zeitgeist Addendum (Peter Joseph)

Show nested quote +
Society today, is composed of a series of institutions. From political institutions, legal institutions, religious institutions. To institutions of social class, familiar values, and occupational specialization.

It is obvious, the profound influence these traditionalized structures have in shaping our understandings and perspectives. Yet, of all the social institutions, we are born into, directed by, and conditioned upon.. There seems to be no system as taken for granted, and misunderstood, as the monetary system.

Taking on nearly religious proportions, the established monetary institution exists as one of the most unquestioned forms of faith there is. How money is created, the policies by which it is governed, and how it truly affects society, are unregistered interests of the great majority of the population.

In a world where 1% of the population owns 40% of the planets wealth. In a world where 34.000 children die every single day from poverty and preventable diseases, and, where 50% of the world’s population lives on less than 2 dollars a day… One thing is clear. Something is very wrong. And, whether we are aware of it or not, the lifeblood of all of our established institutions, and thus society itself, is money.

Therefore, understanding this institution of monetary policy is critical to understanding why our lives are the way they are. Unfortunately, economics is often viewed with confusion and boredom. Endless streams of financial jargon, coupled with intimidating mathematics, quickly deters people from attempts at understanding it. However, the fact is: The complexity associated with the financial system is a mere mask. Designed to conceal one of the most socially paralyzing structures, humanity has ever endured.

I don't really like the quote, it seems to really give me any knowledge on anything. a rehash of irrelevant information

On July 20 2011 22:41 OmniEulogy wrote:
Some people put too much importance over money... some too little. It's better than bartering for all of our goods though. I'll trade you a chicken for sc2? Just doesn't seem as appealing.

yeah i guess my previous rant was about over valuing money...

On July 20 2011 22:58 LML wrote:
what, why would I have to do good to other people to earn money?
What if my job totally does not involve other people, as mine does, I am not suppossed to earn alot of money for what I really love to do?
That almost makes sense.

Besides, I guess it's okay, I served my social duty in a hospital, 8 months of work with people should qualify me, right?

if your not doing a job to help other people by being part of the production of a good or providing a service, what are you doing?

+ Show Spoiler +
On July 20 2011 22:52 beberly wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2011 22:25 jodogohoo wrote:
What the hell is money? What does it represent? What does it do?

These are questions I want to ask yourself. What the shit is money? We all know it's what we exchange for goods. You want to buy sc2, you need money.

But where the fuck do we get money? Well we get money from doing work. Or at least that's where we should be getting money.

You do a job, you do a task, you do a service. You are doing something for the benefit of others, that's why you get paid. And with that, you go buy other shit that other people spent their time and effort to make for you.

Look the point I'm trying to get at is that the amount of money you have should represent the amount of good you've done for others. But is this the case in today's society?

Have you "earned" you're money?
I personally haven't earned any of the money I've spent or possess.



This will hopefully be a part of a series of blogs dealing with my view on money in today's society.

+ Show Spoiler +
Feel free to tear rip wholes in my argument. I can handle being wrong.


The bolded section is where I think your argument breaks down. The preceding statements are more correct. When we provide a good or service, we are paid not for the amount of "good" that we do for society, but for how much value (value in the sense that they can use that good or service to create more wealth for themselves, though sometimes this isn't the sole measure of value) the individual places on our good or service. It is not a normative payment for some "goodness" that is created.

Very few individuals will pay someone more for a service than the amount by which they value that service. You have "earned" your money in the sense that you have provided goods or services to your employers that they value at least that much. Otherwise they would have fired your ass and hired someone whose goods/services they valued more.

Remember that money is simply a tool to get us around the matching problems that come with a barter-based economy. If I raise chickens, sometimes I want something that I can't pay for with chickens, and I don't want to spend time trading 17 times to get something that my cobbler (for example) wants when I need a new pair of shoes. All money does is allow us to reduce transaction costs. It represents value, it doesn't have any intrinsic value like the goods or services we provide do.


i hate to say it but i have to completely agree with your post. i should know better...
exalted
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States3612 Posts
July 20 2011 14:12 GMT
#9
LOL at OP. But yeah, life isn't fair.

too easy
beberly
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States117 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 14:15:55
July 20 2011 14:13 GMT
#10
On July 20 2011 22:25 jodogohoo wrote:
Currently in my life, I have found and met many people who have great amounts of money and haven't done any actual beneficial work for society to earn their money. I see this mainly with young people spending their parents money.

I feel this picture doesn't look right. People should have to earn the money the spend. However I'm not sure how we would come up with a general agreed upon standard for "earning and deserving money".

But yeah, the point I'm trying to get is that thee amount of money a person has should represent how much good they've done for other people.

What do you guys think about this?


THIS is a much more interesting question, I think. I guess I'll answer it with a counterfactual. Consider a world in which young people can't get their parents' money or property (I think we can agree that minor dependents should be exempted from this....we don't want 7 year olds having to work for their supper =] ). What would we do with wealth upon the death of the wealth holder? The wealth holder obviously worked to get their wealth. If we give it back to the government, it will be distributed to people who didn't earn it. If we give it to a charity, it will be given to a group/individuals who didn't do anything to earn that money. If we distribute it evenly to everyone, everyone gets money they didn't do any work to get, other than outliving the dead guy.

But look at the child of the deceased. They provided joy to the wealth holder (usually parents love their children). They were a source of pride for their parents. They did more "work" for the money than Random Person X. There is also the evolutionary imperative to take care of our young. Parents value the safety and security of their children, and inheritance allows parents to continue to take care of their children even after the parent dies.

I did, however, come across an interesting story. One of the hosts of the UK TV show The Shark Tank (a wealthy investor) has set up trusts for his money. When he dies, his children don't get his money directly. Instead, the trust pays out funds to match money that the children earn on their own.The rates vary by age and income, but the child must effectively "work" for their inheritance. It's interesting, and perhaps something like that might be more palatable to you? You seem to be a little fed up with Hilton-like "rich kids," which I think we all have some experience with. I feel you there.
jodogohoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada2533 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 14:24:12
July 20 2011 14:13 GMT
#11
On July 20 2011 23:12 exalted wrote:
LOL at OP. But yeah, life isn't fair.

lol yeah pretty much T_T

On July 20 2011 23:13 beberly wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2011 22:25 jodogohoo wrote:
Currently in my life, I have found and met many people who have great amounts of money and haven't done any actual beneficial work for society to earn their money. I see this mainly with young people spending their parents money.

I feel this picture doesn't look right. People should have to earn the money the spend. However I'm not sure how we would come up with a general agreed upon standard for "earning and deserving money".

But yeah, the point I'm trying to get is that thee amount of money a person has should represent how much good they've done for other people.

What do you guys think about this?


THIS is a much more interesting question, I think. I guess I'll answer it with a counterfactual. Consider a world in which young people can't get their parents' money or property (I think we can agree that minor dependents should be exemted from this....we don't want 7 year olds having to work for their supper =] ). What would we do with wealth upon the death of the wealth holder? The wealth holder obviously worked to get their wealth. If we give it back to the government, it will be distributed to people who didn't earn it. If we give it to a charity, it will be given to a group/individuals who didn't do anything to earn that money. If we distribute it evenly to everyone, everyone gets money they didn't do any work to get, other than outliving the dead guy.

But look at the child of the deceased. They provided joy to the wealth holder (usually parents love their children). They were a source of pride for their parents. They did more "work" for the money than Random Person X. There is also the evolutionary imperative to take care of our young. Parents value the safety and security of their children, and inheritance allows parents to continue to take care of their children even after the parent dies.

I did, however, come across an interesting story. One of the hosts of the UK TV show The Shark Tank (a wealthy investor) has set up trusts for his money. When he dies, his children don't get his money directly. Instead, the trust pays out funds to match money that the children earn on their own.The rates vary by age and income, but the child must effectively "work" for their inheritance. It's interesting, and perhaps something like that might be more palatable to you? You seem to be a little fed up with Hilton-like "rich kids," which I think we all have some experience with. I feel you there.


Hmm I think what I'm secretly getting at, "subconsciously D:<", is that people shouldn't be able to spend their money on whatever they want. And that is a terrible idea as it goes against the freedom of spending the money you earn. Parents should be able do what they want with their money, regardless of possible externalities or irresponsible consequences.

uhh regarding the parents property... hmm... i have no answers to that, i guess inheritance is the best decision...



hmmmm yeah, i think i can see where i went wrong here. hopefully I can take this blog and produce some better work in the future
beberly
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States117 Posts
July 20 2011 14:28 GMT
#12
On July 20 2011 23:13 jodogohoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2011 23:12 exalted wrote:
LOL at OP. But yeah, life isn't fair.

lol yeah pretty much T_T

Show nested quote +
On July 20 2011 23:13 beberly wrote:
On July 20 2011 22:25 jodogohoo wrote:
Currently in my life, I have found and met many people who have great amounts of money and haven't done any actual beneficial work for society to earn their money. I see this mainly with young people spending their parents money.

I feel this picture doesn't look right. People should have to earn the money the spend. However I'm not sure how we would come up with a general agreed upon standard for "earning and deserving money".

But yeah, the point I'm trying to get is that thee amount of money a person has should represent how much good they've done for other people.

What do you guys think about this?


THIS is a much more interesting question, I think. I guess I'll answer it with a counterfactual. Consider a world in which young people can't get their parents' money or property (I think we can agree that minor dependents should be exemted from this....we don't want 7 year olds having to work for their supper =] ). What would we do with wealth upon the death of the wealth holder? The wealth holder obviously worked to get their wealth. If we give it back to the government, it will be distributed to people who didn't earn it. If we give it to a charity, it will be given to a group/individuals who didn't do anything to earn that money. If we distribute it evenly to everyone, everyone gets money they didn't do any work to get, other than outliving the dead guy.

But look at the child of the deceased. They provided joy to the wealth holder (usually parents love their children). They were a source of pride for their parents. They did more "work" for the money than Random Person X. There is also the evolutionary imperative to take care of our young. Parents value the safety and security of their children, and inheritance allows parents to continue to take care of their children even after the parent dies.

I did, however, come across an interesting story. One of the hosts of the UK TV show The Shark Tank (a wealthy investor) has set up trusts for his money. When he dies, his children don't get his money directly. Instead, the trust pays out funds to match money that the children earn on their own.The rates vary by age and income, but the child must effectively "work" for their inheritance. It's interesting, and perhaps something like that might be more palatable to you? You seem to be a little fed up with Hilton-like "rich kids," which I think we all have some experience with. I feel you there.


Hmm I think what I'm secretly getting at, "subconsciously D:<", is that people shouldn't be able to spend their money on whatever they want. And that is a terrible idea as it goes against the freedom of spending the money you earn. Parents should be able do what they want with their money, regardless of possible externalities or irresponsible consequences.

uhh regarding the parents property... hmm... i have no answers to that, i guess inheritance is the best decision...



hmmmm yeah, i think i can see where i went wrong here. hopefully I can take this blog and produce some better work in the future


Hahaha I don't think there's anything wrong with what you think. It's human nature to want more stuff. You work hard to get stuff, and Paris Hilton doesn't do a damn thing and has way more stuff. And that sucks. That speaks more to human nature, though, than to the nature of money. I see money as nothing more than an economic construct. The "worship of money" or the jealousy or the greed really have nothing to do with money. If cash didn't exist, we'd still have people being greedy for something else. Philosophers who claim that money is the root of all evil are silly. Evil is the root of all evil. We're just as big a group of assholes if we're hoarding chickens or grain or diamonds or land as if we're hoarding cash.
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
July 20 2011 14:44 GMT
#13
This is such an open-ended topic and I see that people have went pretty deep on the replies above.

I'm just going to go with a personal one. I grew up with a lot of immigrant friends (from immigrant families, myself being in one) and also visa/temporary students (from Korea) here in Canada. I've seen so many kids spoiled in different ways...

- Girls: perfectly "normal" for high school girls to go shopping together and buy a bunch of whatevers. I'm a dude so I'll probably never understand why this is so much fun. Anyways, hardly any of those girls I knew had a part-time job, all of them did the mandatory 40 hours of community service (towards high school graduation) but no more than that, they didn't study very hard and many had to repeat courses and years before who knows where they went. Their parents (immigrant parents) usually worked like 6AM-8PM running private small businesses like convenience stores, lottery booths, sandwich shops, etc.

- Guys: a ton of guys smoked since grade 9-10. Smoking itself isn't illegal in non-prohibited areas, but buying tobacco/cigar is illegal for minors and it's illegal to buy it for minors too. Obviously they got their sticks from someone else (illegally), and with heavy tax here, those get expensive. I'm not saying smoking is the main problem though. Generally, most of those smokers skipped class to smoke with friends, resulting in poor grades and failures. Most of those guys were visa students who were not making any part-time money. That means, their parents were paying for their living expenses and the ridiculous visa student registration fees - all so that the kid can smoke his life away without achieving anything?

So yes, there are tons of kids just blowing their parents money away like it's nothing and is contributing basically nothing (or contributing negatively) to society. Oh fine they're making money circulate in society but that might go for another lengthy argument so I'll end here.
[TLMS] REBOOT
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25981 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-20 14:51:33
July 20 2011 14:49 GMT
#14
I believe in freedom. People should do whatever they want.

Edit: I always respect charitable people, because I'm not very charitable myself.

I don't think people should have money related to how much good they do because that's an idealist view that has no practicality to it. People should, and do, have money related to how much utility they provide.
Moderator
Malyce
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Switzerland112 Posts
July 20 2011 14:56 GMT
#15
On July 20 2011 23:49 Chill wrote:
I believe in freedom. People should do whatever they want.

Edit: I always respect charitable people, because I'm not very charitable myself.

I don't think people should have money related to how much good they do because that's an idealist view that has no practicality to it. People should, and do, have money related to how much utility they provide.


The problem being that the measure of utility is biased.

People have many for several reasons. The first being the place they are born, and its heritage in exploiting the world's resources. In Switzerland we've done that marvellously over many years, and are now a very wealthy country.

The second is your family, the education and training they provide you with, their contacts, etc.

The third is you, and your job. Utility isn't an objective measure, the money you have depends on to what extent what you do is appeciated by people who have money. That's why Bill Gates is richer than than any Human Rights activist for example.

As to what money is, it's a piece of paper that is unique and is given symbolic trade value. Note the symbolic.
SpavaM
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Croatia175 Posts
July 20 2011 15:00 GMT
#16
On July 20 2011 22:25 jodogohoo wrote:
What do you guys think about this?


I'm gonna sound a bit harsh but it seems to me you just feel butt hurt that you had to work for something other people didn't have to, and they take it for granted



On July 20 2011 23:44 OpticalShot wrote:
So yes, there are tons of kids just blowing their parents money away like it's nothing and is contributing basically nothing (or contributing negatively) to society.


lol.... Read Zimbardo's The Time Paradox... Well, you don't have to read the book if you don't have the time, learn what's it about by googling, altrough it's a good read.

Basically, they are present hedonistic, you are future oriented.

aka imagiNe... "What if Nydus worms could make my coffee, play 2v2 and close threads for me? That would be grand." - riptide
alexhard
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden317 Posts
July 20 2011 15:01 GMT
#17
So in your ideal society OP, would charity be illegal? Donations are unearned after all...seems like a very harsh world that you want to live in, in any case. Supporting others isn't evil, and earning money isn't everything in life.
beberly
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States117 Posts
July 20 2011 15:06 GMT
#18
On July 20 2011 23:56 Malyce wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 20 2011 23:49 Chill wrote:
I believe in freedom. People should do whatever they want.

Edit: I always respect charitable people, because I'm not very charitable myself.

I don't think people should have money related to how much good they do because that's an idealist view that has no practicality to it. People should, and do, have money related to how much utility they provide.


The problem being that the measure of utility is biased.

People have many for several reasons. The first being the place they are born, and its heritage in exploiting the world's resources. In Switzerland we've done that marvellously over many years, and are now a very wealthy country.

The second is your family, the education and training they provide you with, their contacts, etc.

The third is you, and your job. Utility isn't an objective measure, the money you have depends on to what extent what you do is appeciated by people who have money. That's why Bill Gates is richer than than any Human Rights activist for example.

As to what money is, it's a piece of paper that is unique and is given symbolic trade value. Note the symbolic.


However, there are huge difficulties (I'd venture so far as to say impossibilities) in creating a non-biased, non-arbitrary replacement for conventional utility. To do so would require that we all agree on some conception of "the Good" that we could use to measure the amount of good that our actions create. I don't think it is at all clear and irrefutable that Bill Gates hasn't created more "Good" with his advancement of technology and living standards in the developed world than a human rights activist might do in the developing/third world. Because we all measure "goodness" differently, we can't use that as a basis for compensation or a measure of progress.

Utility, and subsequently the money that is paid for creating it, is an imperfect measure for valuing services and goods in a world that is imperfect in that it contains lots and lots of different folks with different value systems.

n.DieJokes
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3443 Posts
July 20 2011 15:12 GMT
#19
I think you're trying to deny the hard work their parents put in to earn that money. They have a biological imperative to take care of their young and because of their accomplishments they can do so in a lavish manner. Also you can't translate good to money, its subjective to objective there's no logical bridge
MyLove + Your Love= Supa Love
caruso
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany733 Posts
July 20 2011 15:18 GMT
#20
So the OP's point is that parents shouldn't be allowed to give their money to their children?

That's not just impractical, but the notion behind this is highly illogical.

If your parents would have worked a little harder, or maybe have been a little cleverer, or had striven for a better education, you wouldn't be jealous of kids whose parents are wealthy.

Personally, I couldn't take a dime from my parents, but that's just me.
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