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What Is Timing?
Many battles and games are won or lost ion one battle on Starcraft 2, there maybe several instances where the two sides will harass each other but at the end of the day its one big battle that decides the winner.
So why is this and how do you stay on the winning side?
You will always see commentators sat that the winning player hit a particular timing..... so what is timing?
Timings are many things.
It can be attacking once you have gotten certain upgrades. These timing attacks will give you an advantage if the opponent does not upgrade also.
There are other types such as timings where players create large amounts of units and stop worker production. These timing attacks are more known to be “all-ins” or cheeses.
So ultimately, a timing attack is where one player tries to take advantage of his opponent that will allow him to win the game or to put pressure on them in order for the player to get further ahead safely.
So how do you hit the right timings?
This is a relatively hard thing to explain, most of the time players will know their own timings by simply playing more and noticing when to attack to do the most damage.
This would relate to scouting and there are certain timings that can be used once you have scouted your opponent.
Example, if your opponent early expands, an early attack may prove fatal as no one can be doing both creating a large army and expanding fast.
If an opponent is expanding, he will not be able to have a large army and hence there is a window of time to attack and perhaps win.
There are some other forms of timing attacks that do not rely on scouting at all. This is because the timing attack will punish and blind-counter most strategies.
ie. Such as when a protoss does a two base ⅚ gate timing attack. This is safe and good because of two reasons:
1. If the zerg was macro-ing and having heavy drone production, he will simply die to the attack.
2. If the zerg scouted it, they would have to respond by using their larvae to make an army and not drones, then the protoss simple can choose to pull back because the damage has already been done to the economy.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On July 13 2011 18:19 DexVitality wrote:
It can be attacking once you have gotten certain upgrades. These timing attacks will give you an advantage if the opponent does not upgrade also.
I would like to stop you right here.
When an upgrade finishes might be a good time to a attack, but that doesn't make it a timing attack. A timing attack is a result of shaping your build and strategy in relation to the opponents build. Otherwise it's just an attack at a (possibly) good time.
Some classic examples of timing attacks:
Staying on 2 base vs 3 base and hitting with an attack just before the 3rd base of the opponent pays off
Attacking just before important opponents' tech and/or units finish, best example is hitting a Zerg just before his Muta are out, or just before his Broodlords are out.
These examples might of course entail making your upgrades such that they finish with your timing attack. But the finished upgrade is just one ingredient to the timing attack. Without the prerequisite that it aims to hit at a time your build makes you militarily stronger than the opponents build him, your timing attack is just an attack.
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On July 13 2011 18:19 DexVitality wrote:
There are other types such as timings where players create large amounts of units and stop worker production. These timing attacks are more known to be “all-ins” or cheeses.
You can cut workers to get your tech slightly faster / prod the correct amount of units to hit the correct timing without it being an all-in at all.
Typical example : Neo Bisu build PvZ. (zealot+1 corsair+1)
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Hungary11284 Posts
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You seem to think any advantageous attack is a timing attack.
It isn't.
If you attack by means of a larger army or faster upgrade that is simply a "push" or a "pressure".
A timing attack is an attack that is the final aim of a build specifically designed to hit another build at a specific time. Zatic already mentioned some great examples. Some others would be:
1) Terran 2fact vs protoss 1gate FE. This is when protoss just put down another 2 gates and nexus is just finishing. Protoss has maybe 5 goons while terran has around 5 marines, 2 tanks, 5 vultures and some scv. Mine research finished and siege is finished around 15seconds after terran starts attacking protoss natural.
2) Zerg 2base hydra vs protoss FE. The 6 lings and around 12 hydras hit just as protoss first corsair comes out. Denying toss scout is essential of course so toss is playing blind. Toss is still warping archives and with around 3 zealots and 2 cannons.
Saying that an attack after +1 finishes is a timing attack is a little simplifying what a timing attack is.
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The most basic "timing" will be a BW ZvZ with both players 12h-11p-10g with one going lair first and other going speed first. That "timing" attack would be something like speed first player attacks right when the speed finishes because speed will finish before lair first player's investment in tech starts paying off (namely, his spire being completed) and his own zergling speed is done. And, just like in SC2, speedlings own slowlings in BW. Followed by a snipe on spire and here is a win for you.
TL;DR: Timing is hitting the opponent in the worst possible time for him with all the power you can possibly get to either kill him right away or to damage him enough and transition back into the normal course of the game and beat him later on.
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On July 13 2011 18:56 pyrogenetix wrote:
You seem to think any advantageous attack is a timing attack.
It isn't.
If you attack by means of a larger army or faster upgrade that is simply a "push" or a "pressure".
A timing attack is an attack that is the final aim of a build specifically designed to hit another build at a specific time. Zatic already mentioned some great examples. Some others would be:
1) Terran 2fact vs protoss 1gate FE. This is when protoss just put down another 2 gates and nexus is just finishing. Protoss has maybe 5 goons while terran has around 5 marines, 2 tanks, 5 vultures and some scv. Mine research finished and siege is finished around 15seconds after terran starts attacking protoss natural.
2) Zerg 2base hydra vs protoss FE. The 6 lings and around 12 hydras hit just as protoss first corsair comes out. Denying toss scout is essential of course so toss is playing blind. Toss is still warping archives and with around 3 zealots and 2 cannons.
Saying that an attack after +1 finishes is a timing attack is a little simplifying what a timing attack is.
Right, I know that the concept of timing is quite complicated and the details can get quite mind boggling and hard to explain, I guess what I was shooting for was a very simple explanation of what I believe Timing is.
Now in one of the earlier posts, they said timing attacks are not always one that takes advantage of your opponent, but I really do believe that it is, if there was no advantage, it would just be an attack. I also mention that the commentators always seem to throw out the words... oh that is a good timing here... or this is a great timing attack and when they say this it is normally because they see that oh their opponent just barely got his ghost production out or w/e so the attacker has a clear advantage for this one fight etc... so I do believe timing attacks normally take advantage of your opponent. Your examples seems to still imply that the attacker has an advantage, ie. cosairs just got out, so their usefulness is not as good as their numbers are now. etc.
Your first example is great, and it is more detailed than the ones I am giving I guess I just want to keep it simple. I did mention that scouting is a big factor in determining your timings and that can get its whole essay/book if anyone decided to write it but thanks for your posts guys
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Oh I had no idea Chill had written this article, I guess I am basically just putting it in my own words. Thanks for letting me know.
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Zurich15325 Posts
I think you are mixing up concepts here.
Of course a timing attack means you have an advantage over your opponent. That's the whole idea.
But that doesn't mean that every attack where you have an advantage over your opponent is autmatically a timing attack.
This is important to understand, especially for people trying to learn about timings. Otherwise they will look for the wrong things. Take my example of a 2base timing attack on a 3rd base. Someone wants to learn timings and looks up a pro replay of a player successfully attacking a 3rd base. Following the advice in your OP, they will see that the player in the replay attacked just as their stim packed finished, and will try to adapt their own play accordingly.
But that is the wrong conclusion. The finished stim pack is a product of the timing, not a trigger. What they would have to look at is the return of investment curve of the 3rd base, not the details in the attacking players build, like finishing upgrades.
I am stressing this point because it ("attack when upgrade finishes") is the most common misconception people have about timing attacks.
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Not to be critical but does this sound like it is limited to the thinking of only one matchup even though
we are not all aware of it? Is there a specific match up (examble PvZ TvP) that sparked this thread or was it all theory crafting based?
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I think you are trying to generalize what you want answered which is a Protoss two base all in vs Zerg two base w/ a macro heavy build ... imo Protoss can only succeed with a risky build like this if Zerg gets too greedy or if the Protoss scares the Zerg into creating too much defense at a significant sacrifice to macro before the 4 or 5 gate push you are planning to stomp him with occurs
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Chills answer is best
But here is another one that is nice.
Its by a really sexy character and has a GRAPH.
I feel like your answer said a lot without really saying anything.
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Zurich15325 Posts
On July 13 2011 22:31 ComaDose wrote:Chills answer is best But here is another one that is nice. Its by a really sexy character and has a GRAPH. I feel like your answer said a lot without really saying anything.
Sorry, but your link is the perfect example of peolpe getting the concept of timing attack wrong. You say the exact same thing as the OP: Attack when an upgrade finishes. That is not a timing attack. Your follow-up with the graph is closer to the idea, but fails to focus on the important part: That a timing attack is timed based on the opponents build. Which, btw, does not have a linear "goodness". If it were to there couldn't be any timing attacks.
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On July 13 2011 22:42 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 22:31 ComaDose wrote:Chills answer is best But here is another one that is nice. Its by a really sexy character and has a GRAPH. I feel like your answer said a lot without really saying anything. Sorry, but your link is the perfect example of peolpe getting the concept of timing attack wrong. You say the exact same thing as the OP: Attack when an upgrade finishes. That is not a timing attack. Your follow-up with the graph is closer to the idea, but fails to focus on the important part: That a timing attack is timed based on the opponents build. Which, btw, does not have a linear "goodness". If it were to there couldn't be any timing attacks.
That makes me sad but thanks for the clarification.
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I personally think Timing and Timing Attacks can mean many things, I do not think anyone is wrong I am just trying to simplify it. It seems like the term seems to be tossed around a lot in different contexts.
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EPT
