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Hello!
Well this post is going to be a bit of a downer so if you're from wonderland you may want to stop reading right here since you might catch a pinch of realism if you read any further. So on to the topic of today's blog, my teamliquid and starcraft 2 interest.
First of let me just start out by saying, no I don't dislike either team liquid or blizzard, especially not team liquid. But there are somethings that are just quite bothersome about them both. First of let's start of with the easy one to bash blizzard.
I've been a huge fan of blizzard games since I played warcraft 2 for the first time, I just loved all of it and then when it was time for me to get my first own game ever it just so happend to coincide with the release date of starcraft. So I've grown up with their games and loved pretty much all of them heck even WoW was fun for a while. All their games up untill the release of Starcraft 2 has left a huge impression on me. Those games were so fine tuned and pretty much perfect I mean who doesn't get a fuzzy feeling inside just thinking back on the good times that were had with starcraft bw and warcraft 3. However with Sc2, the feeling is just not there. There's nothing special about it. Had it not been for the fantastic community backing it would just have been a mediocre rts like the C&Cs of recent years.
So what makes me think that it's such a mediocre game? Well the game was clearly built for the masses and not for the fans of the old game. This is an amazing tactic by blizzard though since it allows new people to get into it and just have fun with it. This is all good stuff, but not for the game which is currently the largest e-sport in the west. It's shameful to be honest that a game which requires not even half the time brood war did to get good at is getting so much attention because of a foundation that wasn't even built up by the westerners.
I mean heck I was terrible at brood war my peak laid at D+ and still I manage to get a high ranking in diamond whilst it was the highest league back in like December when I actually still played the game. Which just further proofs the fact that it's a game built to be easy. No longer is the 200 apm needed now you can get by with apm under 100 and still play pretty much perfectly. No longer is there any type of hard to master micro. Even such an easy task as vulture kiting would be considered hard in this game. And the pretty much unlimited control groups with multiple building selection makes multitasking and macro overall fairly simplistic.
And you may now be thinking of making a post about why I am not able to go pro then if it's that easy to play the game and apart from the lack of time the answer brings me on to my next point which is, consistency. This is the main thing that this game lacks. In a game where macro is so easy everyone pretty much can do it perfectly at the highest level you can't really just out macro your opponent you must counter what he is doing, the hard counter system is of course what I am talking about. This makes it hard to win every game since scouting is pretty much the only thing that can save you against these things. And though you can argue that "Well that's perfectly reasonable" and I completely agree, scouting is important and that's an ok thing in strategy games. However in starcraft 2 you need to know about these things so much quicker than you did in sc1. This is because of things such as larvae inject and chrono boost + warp in. These thing results in there being a much shorter time to get your desired unit to your opponent or mass up enough of your desired unit to hard counter the opponent. There's just so many variables in starcraft 2 which results in no consistency.
Take brood war for instance that game has had reigns of terrors of players who've completely dominated the scene for periods of time. This is something we lack in starcraft 2 there's just hard to get existed about the games when you can't make any sort of prediction of who'll win. This argument is often countered by well brood war has been out for x many years and it's been figured out. Well starcraft 2 if has soon been out for a year and a bit more than that if you count the beta and though we've had tons of tournaments there's been no real consistency in results I mean is there anyone who has won more than two prestigious tournaments back to back? If people spend as much time with the game as they do and claim to be better they should at least be able to show some sort of consistency. I mean I've gotten the chance to meet up with some of the pros and not even they are saying that they're enjoying the game that much at least not in comparison to game they played previously, starcraft 2 is just a much more profitable game for them to play which makes me a bit sad.
And that's enough about starcraft 2, the list goes on could talk about the non original boring units and them ruining the overall potential of the game but enough with the bashing. So lets get going with my second concern, teamliquid. And no this not going to be hateful or anything just why I don't spend as much time here as I could have. The main reason is this the sc2 people. And I know, yeah big newsflash. And this is for two reasons first that the sc2 section is evolving so slowly still there are posts that reflect that of what the sc2 section was last summer which was a shit fest and I'll admit that I wasn't exactly a good poster nor a guy who didn't cry imbalanced but with time I've just realized that those discussions lead to well, nowhere so I quit doing that bullshit. However some still remain and are whining about imbalance. Another thing that is getting better but has miles to go is the sc2 section in comparison to the brood war section in terms of quality posts. People really should start checking out the brood war section to see how hyping and discussions should be done. I mean during the SotG hiatus I've felt not direct need at all to visit this site which is kinda sad since I actually do like it a whole lot.
And one last thing that I that I find to be the most annoying of the all is the people on this site cheering on for e-sports when all they really mean is starcraft 2. e-sport =/= starcraft 2. Stacraft 2 <= e-sport. So if you really wanna further e-sports don't forget to support other games as well.
That's all I had on my mind, peace out.
 
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I agree with most of what you said. I've always felt that sc2 lacks a lot of those small things that eventually allowed bonjwa's to distinguish themselves from the rest and achieve ridiculously high win rates. Stuff like 12 unit groups, individual building selections, having to actually select individual casters rather than just selecting your entire blob and blanketing the entire screen with what commentators refer to as "amazing storms" etc.
Some people like to call these things "limitations of the ui," but in my opinion they are only limitations at lower levels of play and are at the highest level quite the opposite; they present opportunity for the very best of the best to completely distinguish themselves from other pro's.
One year from now every pro will have mastered every micro/macro maneuver that is somewhat challenging in this game, and I expect most games are just going to come down to bo wins.
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I completely, 100% agree. I've already lost interest twice now and I'll make sure not to go back this time.
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On July 05 2011 02:13 hifriend wrote:
I agree with most of what you said. I've always felt that sc2 lacks a lot of those small things that eventually allowed bonjwa's to distinguish themselves from the rest and achieve ridiculously high win rates. Stuff like 12 unit groups, individual building selections, having to actually select individual casters rather than just selecting your entire blob and blanketing the entire screen with what commentators refer to as "amazing storms" etc.
Some people like to call these things "limitations of the ui," but in my opinion they are only limitations at lower levels of play and are at the highest level quite the opposite; they present opportunity for the very best of the best to completely distinguish themselves from other pro's.
One year from now every pro will have mastered every micro/macro maneuver that is somewhat challenging in this game, and I expect most games are just going to come down to bo wins.
Perhaps I'm being to optimistic, but I feel that all of these micro tricks that you speak of weren't discovered within a year Broodwar's release. Hell even the muta stacking trick didn't come around until like 2005.
So I guess at this point the OP is entirely correct, SC2 seems to lack those intricacies, but I don't think that similar things can't develope in SC2.
Just something to think about.
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IMO sc2 has the better micro because of marines doing high dps so u gotta micro hard with them cuz the damage is so big that if u dont control = u lose. sc1 units arent that high dps so forgive bad micro a bit cause battles take longer. also you got the banelings, rine splits, pro forcefields etc, stuff like that doesnt happen in sc1.
so yeah, sc1 is a decent game but if you want really good micro, and not with the unfortunately stone age macro mechancis of sc1 then sc2 is the way to go
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Papua New Guinea152 Posts
Nice points and I do agree that BW is a much better game than SC2 is right now, but as has been said hundreds of times already, BW had over 12 years to blossom into the game it is today. I have hope for SC2 to achieve great things, even if it seems a little stale or uninspired at this point in time. SC2 is shiny graphics-oriented game, while BW was a game that focused on gameplay. But that doesn't mean that SC2 can't develop the same level of strategy, tactics, and psychological mindgames as BW as it evolves, both as a game that is fun to play as well as being a spectator friendly e-sport. The main thing SC2 has going for it is of course the fantastic community, which BW could only ever dream of having outside of Korea.
Overall, while I agree that BW is (and probably will be) the better game, even 12 years from now, hell it's about time that we try something new. Even the best things in the world can get boring if we keep doing them for an indefinite amount of time. And I am glad that a lot of SC2 newcomers are discovering the joys of BW, a truly worthy predecessor to SC2.
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On July 05 2011 02:21 xarthaz wrote:
IMO sc2 has the better micro because of marines doing high dps so u gotta micro hard with them cuz the damage is so big that if u dont control = u lose. sc1 units arent that high dps so forgive bad micro a bit cause battles take longer. also you got the banelings, rine splits, pro forcefields etc, stuff like that doesnt happen in sc1.
so yeah, sc1 is a decent game but if you want really good micro, and not with the unfortunately stone age macro mechancis of sc1 then sc2 is the way to go
Haha, omg, if your name wasn't familiar to me, I would have started to flame you.
If we can use little micro tricks depends entirely on Blizzard. Remember Fazing? Patched. Remember burrowed neural parasite? Patched. And I believe that the we have uncovered almost all of SC2's hidden mechanics.
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On July 05 2011 02:17 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 02:13 hifriend wrote:
I agree with most of what you said. I've always felt that sc2 lacks a lot of those small things that eventually allowed bonjwa's to distinguish themselves from the rest and achieve ridiculously high win rates. Stuff like 12 unit groups, individual building selections, having to actually select individual casters rather than just selecting your entire blob and blanketing the entire screen with what commentators refer to as "amazing storms" etc.
Some people like to call these things "limitations of the ui," but in my opinion they are only limitations at lower levels of play and are at the highest level quite the opposite; they present opportunity for the very best of the best to completely distinguish themselves from other pro's.
One year from now every pro will have mastered every micro/macro maneuver that is somewhat challenging in this game, and I expect most games are just going to come down to bo wins. Perhaps I'm being to optimistic, but I feel that all of these micro tricks that you speak of weren't discovered within a year Broodwar's release. Hell even the muta stacking trick didn't come around until like 2005. So I guess at this point the OP is entirely correct, SC2 seems to lack those intricacies, but I don't think that similar things can't develope in SC2. Just something to think about.
Muta stacking was a bug initially though or well still is. But in this game the community is so big so things like these spread really fast so these become known much faster.
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On July 05 2011 02:21 xarthaz wrote:
IMO sc2 has the better micro because of marines doing high dps so u gotta micro hard with them cuz the damage is so big that if u dont control = u lose. sc1 units arent that high dps so forgive bad micro a bit cause battles take longer. also you got the banelings, rine splits, pro forcefields etc, stuff like that doesnt happen in sc1.
so yeah, sc1 is a decent game but if you want really good micro, and not with the unfortunately stone age macro mechancis of sc1 then sc2 is the way to go
This makes me wonder if you've ever played bw... Ok marines are quite micro intensive versus banelings... Is that all you got? Let me counter then, controlling tons of control groups while individually selecting casters and using their abilites. Also to macro u can't look at the battle, the pure skill that is required to do that is just insane whilst marine splitting can be mastered in a few days if you focus on that shit.
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On July 05 2011 02:27 blubbdavid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 02:21 xarthaz wrote:
IMO sc2 has the better micro because of marines doing high dps so u gotta micro hard with them cuz the damage is so big that if u dont control = u lose. sc1 units arent that high dps so forgive bad micro a bit cause battles take longer. also you got the banelings, rine splits, pro forcefields etc, stuff like that doesnt happen in sc1.
so yeah, sc1 is a decent game but if you want really good micro, and not with the unfortunately stone age macro mechancis of sc1 then sc2 is the way to go Haha, omg, if your name wasn't familiar to me, I would have started to flame you. If we can use little micro tricks depends entirely on Blizzard. Remember Fazing? Patched. Remember burrowed neural parasite? Patched. And I believe that the we have uncovered almost all of SC2's hidden mechanics.
Although they said they patched it, you can still faze workers through enemy/allied units.
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I don't feel like anybody is playing perfect SC2, so I don't agree that the skill cap is too low. I expect some more micro intensive units with the SC2 expansions, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the return of some more BW units.
The big thing we didn't have back in the day was so much cynicism. People concentrated so much on the positives and overcame many ingame problems themselves by using creative play. They didn't expect everything to be spoonfed to them after complaining enough.
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On July 05 2011 02:51 deathly rat wrote:
I don't feel like anybody is playing perfect SC2, so I don't agree that the skill cap is too low. I expect some more micro intensive units with the SC2 expansions, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the return of some more BW units.
The big thing we didn't have back in the day was so much cynicism. People concentrated so much on the positives and overcame many ingame problems themselves by using creative play. They didn't expect everything to be spoonfed to them after complaining enough.
Just a quick thing: skill cap has little to do with "playing perfect". It just means that the mechanics are much easier to grasp, making things come easier to everyone, lessening the gap between the best and worst players.
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On July 05 2011 02:51 deathly rat wrote:
I don't feel like anybody is playing perfect SC2, so I don't agree that the skill cap is too low. I expect some more micro intensive units with the SC2 expansions, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the return of some more BW units.
The big thing we didn't have back in the day was so much cynicism. People concentrated so much on the positives and overcame many ingame problems themselves by using creative play. They didn't expect everything to be spoonfed to them after complaining enough.
The reason I am being so negative is because blizzard themselves has put themselves up on another level than all other developers.. except valve of just producing great games so I just expect more from them and from the perspective of having some casual fun the game is great but from a watching pros own it up it's no where near brood war even the early days when the pros weren't that insane as they are today.
And I mean I am still cynical about other games but there's still greatness out there the last time I felt that about a game though was .. quite a while ago .. it was when fallout 3 was released.
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On July 05 2011 02:13 hifriend wrote:
I agree with most of what you said. I've always felt that sc2 lacks a lot of those small things that eventually allowed bonjwa's to distinguish themselves from the rest and achieve ridiculously high win rates. Stuff like 12 unit groups, individual building selections, having to actually select individual casters rather than just selecting your entire blob and blanketing the entire screen with what commentators refer to as "amazing storms" etc.
Some people like to call these things "limitations of the ui," but in my opinion they are only limitations at lower levels of play and are at the highest level quite the opposite; they present opportunity for the very best of the best to completely distinguish themselves from other pro's.
One year from now every pro will have mastered every micro/macro maneuver that is somewhat challenging in this game, and I expect most games are just going to come down to bo wins.
you should play war wind or age of empires 1. bw has nothing on those games if you cherish a terrible UI and rigid game mechanics
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On July 05 2011 03:15 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 02:13 hifriend wrote:
I agree with most of what you said. I've always felt that sc2 lacks a lot of those small things that eventually allowed bonjwa's to distinguish themselves from the rest and achieve ridiculously high win rates. Stuff like 12 unit groups, individual building selections, having to actually select individual casters rather than just selecting your entire blob and blanketing the entire screen with what commentators refer to as "amazing storms" etc.
Some people like to call these things "limitations of the ui," but in my opinion they are only limitations at lower levels of play and are at the highest level quite the opposite; they present opportunity for the very best of the best to completely distinguish themselves from other pro's.
One year from now every pro will have mastered every micro/macro maneuver that is somewhat challenging in this game, and I expect most games are just going to come down to bo wins. you should play war wind or age of empires 1. bw has nothing on those games if you cherish a terrible UI and rigid game mechanics
Yeah those are excellent games.  Maybe not for esports though, there has to be some sort of balance. I think cs 1.6 is a tremendously better esport than css though.
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On July 05 2011 02:27 blubbdavid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 02:21 xarthaz wrote:
IMO sc2 has the better micro because of marines doing high dps so u gotta micro hard with them cuz the damage is so big that if u dont control = u lose. sc1 units arent that high dps so forgive bad micro a bit cause battles take longer. also you got the banelings, rine splits, pro forcefields etc, stuff like that doesnt happen in sc1.
so yeah, sc1 is a decent game but if you want really good micro, and not with the unfortunately stone age macro mechancis of sc1 then sc2 is the way to go Haha, omg, if your name wasn't familiar to me, I would have started to flame you. If we can use little micro tricks depends entirely on Blizzard. Remember Fazing? Patched. Remember burrowed neural parasite? Patched. And I believe that the we have uncovered almost all of SC2's hidden mechanics.
those aren't good micro like muta harass or marine splitting(vs lurkers). fazing is a terrible idea and would ruin the skill(we can agree there is some) of sc2. That last sentence needs to be taken out. You're not psychic...You can't base an argument on saying you know what's hidden from us unless you work for blizzard.
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I 100% agree with almost everything you've said.
Personally my interest in SC2 died out after beta, i played a bit and realized its just a less good sequel to broodwar.
So i've quit for good and don't plan on ever going back
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On July 05 2011 03:19 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 03:15 Roe wrote:On July 05 2011 02:13 hifriend wrote:
I agree with most of what you said. I've always felt that sc2 lacks a lot of those small things that eventually allowed bonjwa's to distinguish themselves from the rest and achieve ridiculously high win rates. Stuff like 12 unit groups, individual building selections, having to actually select individual casters rather than just selecting your entire blob and blanketing the entire screen with what commentators refer to as "amazing storms" etc.
Some people like to call these things "limitations of the ui," but in my opinion they are only limitations at lower levels of play and are at the highest level quite the opposite; they present opportunity for the very best of the best to completely distinguish themselves from other pro's.
One year from now every pro will have mastered every micro/macro maneuver that is somewhat challenging in this game, and I expect most games are just going to come down to bo wins. you should play war wind or age of empires 1. bw has nothing on those games if you cherish a terrible UI and rigid game mechanics Yeah those are excellent games. Maybe not for esports though, there has to be some sort of balance. I think cs 1.6 is a tremendously better esport than css though.
ugh dont forget empire earth. now that i think of it there isnt even a-move in war wind/aoe/ee. even bonjwas would be at a loss
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Honestly, I thought SC2 had potential. But I just couldn't get into it at all... battles are too short because of the ridiculous damage bonuses, and the shiny graphics really get to me. I mean, you can't see anything in that mess. And what is this 1 dropship -> snipe your nexus bullshit? How much fucking DPS can a single unit have? Terrible. I have SC2 sitting on my computer, but I haven't touched it in a month or so. I don't have the urge to play... it's just not fun, plain and simple.
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I agree 100% and I feel the same. But I've already bashed SC2 enough that my friends don't want to hear me anymore (at least they understand what I feel).
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EPT
