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Hey Folks,
Recently I've been running a 2 gate into DT expand against Zerg with considerable success. At 6 mins or so I will throw down an expo and then at about 730 I will make 2 DT's and send them to their nat / main. Some of the roach/ling rushing zergs will literally just lose all of their drones, or a fair amount, as they wont even have a lair or an evo chamber. If it doesn't kill their drones, they can't attack until they have an overseer, which would require them to at least build a lair.
Transition into archon/chargelot/stalker and I've been able to hold off pretty much everything that I've come across. The only thing that got me today was a guy who rushed to ultras(???) and made a ton of spines so I couldn't put on any agro. Given, it was probably my fault for not seeing the ultralisk cavern.
I'd like to propose a question to zergs out there. How often do you see a DT expand against you? With your regular set of openings against Toss, how confident are you that you can minmalize damage from the DTs?
Thanks!
 
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I feel like this should be in one of the SC2 forums. =)
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in last GSL finals,  InCa tried to do some kind of dt expand vs.  NesTea. If I recall correctly, NesTea defended both times with spores and minimal roach/ling (I think he had to block his ramp for a bit on the crossfire game) and then later attacked with lair, roach speed, an overseer, and a lot of roach/ling against the P expo, and killed it decisively.
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Yeah, InCa did, and it was crushed pretty bad. I'm pretty sure that it was largely InCa's fault, though, seeing he was very rigid in his build and refused to adapt even though NesTea was crushing it.
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ah, yea. I don't mean to say it's a terrible build, just pointing out that it's not necessarily a stable one. But suppose your plan is to do this build - what do you scout that would cause you to deviate from it in time? I don't think there's a way to reliably scout lair timing - any obs/sentry/hallu will delay dts too much. I suppose if you only build 2 dts, and pay attention so you don't lose them, you get an archon out of it, but...
let's see, supposing your goal is to make an archon (and transition into archon/chargelot/stalker or whatever):
100/250 + 125/125*2 = 350/500 for 2 dts
150/200 + 50/150*2 = 250/500 for 2 ht + option to make more archons at higher cost efficiency + possible storm later
I guess it's not THAT bad. but still a fair bit of wasted money if Z defends properly. I guess the real question is how much damage you can expect to do with the dts, on average.
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Given that I'm expanding before I have DT's out, I don't know that I need to do any damage desperately. If I can get a reasonable number of drone kills, I'm personally pretty satisfied. I'm content with being able to use them to control the map and deny the 3rd. Often times, if I find a zerg being greedy and going for a third right off, I can usually kill it off immediately with those 2 DTs.
I've given thought to HT, but you don't have anything that would let you get map control like the DT's allow.
Generally, if I scout a roach warren with my probe, I'll deviate, or if there's no expo before I plan to expo myself, ( around 5mins ), I'll bail from DT's and prepare for some aggression.
Even in the games that I've done it and shown up in their base to see a spore crawler already up, I'm able to keep them from pushing out for long enough to create a standing army that will be respectable in some way.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'll have +1 attack by the time my DT's hit their base, which is awesome for drone smashing. If they ling counter, I'll have +2 shortly and I believe that allows Archon's to one shot zerglings..
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Let me just say, that I do agree that High Templar are a more sensible investment to achieve the archon/chargelot unit comp for mid to end game, given that they are cheaper for archons and more functional in a battle. I just find it incredibly difficult to control the map without the DT's on this tech path V Zerg, and I value that map control in mid-game more than I do a bit cheaper archons.
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The way you play it, it's good with DTs. As you say it gives mapcontrol and can deny quick thirds quite easy.
I've done quite the share of DT expands, and they transition well into blink and other gateway heavy transitions, but I pretty much only find them optimal on maps where you can't forge expand as easy. Maps where you can FE, I usually get quick stargate for phoenix and tech to charge and templar archives quickly and mass archon/zealot with upgrades. If you see a quick third, that is often easy denied by a zeal/sentry/archon push with +1 or +2 while you also take your third and tech to robo for obs and prisms (archon drops and zealot warpins are SICK on mineral lines, and the mobility of zeal/archon allows to push expansions while doing this, aswell as you can clear out any path with phoenixes.)
The phoenix give you crucial scouting information aswell as giving you the ability to put some pressure back. You will atleast get overlordkills and deny vision. This is also very effective to deny nydus play.
Sorry for going off on my own tangent, but just felt like sharing. Back to your opening, I still find it completely viable on most maps and are also quite safe vs various all-ins.
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It's only good vs the players who are not expecting it/lower level players.
Once you go against good players, they can easily scout your base by sacking an overlord and/or just build one spore crawler as a precaution. And once you do send your DT and they have detection, you're pretty much way behind. As you take your expansion, they should already be building their 3rd and the rest of the game is playing catch-up to the zerg.
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On June 13 2011 02:22 espritsc wrote:
It's only good vs the players who are not expecting it/lower level players.
Once you go against good players, they can easily scout your base by sacking an overlord and/or just build one spore crawler as a precaution. And once you do send your DT and they have detection, you're pretty much way behind. As you take your expansion, the should already be building their 3rd and the rest of the game is playing catch-up to the zerg.
Building their third at six minutes in? I don't know that I've seen too much of that, even in the pro level zerg games that I have seen. Maybe around seven or eight, which is pretty standard with what I've run across at my level, but I don't know...six for a third hatch seems pretty greedy, in which case I would hope I'd be able to snipe it with the DTs.
Any zergs out there care to share their input on DT expand? Curious to hear a zerg player's thought instead of generalized stuff.
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At higher levels, early evo chambers are pretty common for this very reason.
DT Expand is not a bad build at all, and any Zerg who fails to get detection will lose many games to it.
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On June 13 2011 01:50 turamn wrote:
Let me just say, that I do agree that High Templar are a more sensible investment to achieve the archon/chargelot unit comp for mid to end game, given that they are cheaper for archons and more functional in a battle. I just find it incredibly difficult to control the map without the DT's on this tech path V Zerg, and I value that map control in mid-game more than I do a bit cheaper archons.
yeah I'm just questioning how much map control you really get. I guess overseers are expensive and spores are annoying for Z to put down, at least.
oh, are you making a lot of archons out of dts? I assumed you were getting archives pretty fast afterward. though maybe it's better to get citadel/forge upgrades first unless you need storms.
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On June 13 2011 02:40 MrBitter wrote:
At higher levels, early evo chambers are pretty common for this very reason.
DT Expand is not a bad build at all, and any Zerg who fails to get detection will lose many games to it.
Thanks for the input, sir. In your experience, are you more apt just to drop an evo chamber if you suspect it to be safe? Also, if you don't mind me asking, what is your standard follow up to DT expand?
EDIT: @pal It depends on what unit comp I see. If they go fast lair, I'll likely go straight to templar archive, in preparation for muta/infestor/hydra. If they are still on hatchery, I will throw on some more gateway and try to expand, while adding zealot legs and +2 wep / +1 armor.
As far as map control goes, If I am not mistaken, DT's are faster than overseer, so as long as you are good with your DT control / paying attention, you should be set.
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On June 13 2011 02:45 turamn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 02:40 MrBitter wrote:
At higher levels, early evo chambers are pretty common for this very reason.
DT Expand is not a bad build at all, and any Zerg who fails to get detection will lose many games to it. Thanks for the input, sir. In your experience, are you more apt just to drop an evo chamber if you suspect it to be safe? Also, if you don't mind me asking, what is your standard follow up to DT expand? EDIT: @pal It depends on what unit comp I see. If they go fast lair, I'll likely go straight to templar archive, in preparation for muta/infestor/hydra. If they are still on hatchery, I will throw on some more gateway and try to expand, while adding zealot legs and +2 wep / +1 armor. As far as map control goes, If I am not mistaken, DT's are faster than overseer, so as long as you are good with your DT control / paying attention, you should be set.
I'm usually dropping an evo if I see stalker before sentry, or an expansion off of 3 sentries or less.
As for followups:
lol1aroaches, obviously.
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On June 13 2011 02:22 espritsc wrote:
It's only good vs the players who are not expecting it/lower level players.
Once you go against good players, they can easily scout your base by sacking an overlord and/or just build one spore crawler as a precaution. And once you do send your DT and they have detection, you're pretty much way behind. As you take your expansion, they should already be building their 3rd and the rest of the game is playing catch-up to the zerg.
You're contradicting. Even if you do get the scouting you need, which you should be able to get just with a look at the unitcount of protoss (Air or DTs depending on sentry count), which basically means you can't get a early third since you either need A) gas to get a quick lair, or B) evo chambers for spores and those are not possible to put up at a third base until it actually hatches, which a DT expand build denies straight up.
In effect, even if you show off your build completely, you force zerg to play in a certain way and you effectively gain mapcontrol for a certain amount of time. And Time is everything in SC2.
Getting a few drones are ofc always good, but I actually dont think you NEED to kill anything aslong as you dont let your DTs die. The damage done by just having them on the map in making spores and keeping zerg on 2 base for that much longer is a pretty fair trade anyways, and it also puts you closer to blinktech and the likes.
I'm not trying to say that there are no cons with the build, but it certainly works on higher levels aswell and can even net you freewins in BoXs.
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On June 13 2011 07:28 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 02:22 espritsc wrote:
It's only good vs the players who are not expecting it/lower level players.
Once you go against good players, they can easily scout your base by sacking an overlord and/or just build one spore crawler as a precaution. And once you do send your DT and they have detection, you're pretty much way behind. As you take your expansion, they should already be building their 3rd and the rest of the game is playing catch-up to the zerg. You're contradicting. Even if you do get the scouting you need, which you should be able to get just with a look at the unitcount of protoss (Air or DTs depending on sentry count), which basically means you can't get a early third since you either need A) gas to get a quick lair, or B) evo chambers for spores and those are not possible to put up at a third base until it actually hatches, which a DT expand build denies straight up. In effect, even if you show off your build completely, you force zerg to play in a certain way and you effectively gain mapcontrol for a certain amount of time. And Time is everything in SC2. Getting a few drones are ofc always good, but I actually dont think you NEED to kill anything aslong as you dont let your DTs die. The damage done by just having them on the map in making spores and keeping zerg on 2 base for that much longer is a pretty fair trade anyways, and it also puts you closer to blinktech and the likes. I'm not trying to say that there are no cons with the build, but it certainly works on higher levels aswell and can even net you freewins in BoXs.
Sacrificing that much economy does set you behind and you do need to do damage. Even if you stall the 3rd, it's only a matter of time until lair is done and they can fend off your DT's in their 3rd.
The zerg doesn't have to go out of it's normal build if they know you're going DT's. All they have to do is set up a spore or two (depending on the map where the natural is close to the ramp). If anything, once they know you are going DT's, they are more likely to expand to their third easier since making your army would be delayed as you take your natural.
Please provide me your replay doing this vs higher level players. You can even do it to Mr. Bitter.
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On June 13 2011 08:31 espritsc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 07:28 Kyuki wrote:On June 13 2011 02:22 espritsc wrote:
It's only good vs the players who are not expecting it/lower level players.
Once you go against good players, they can easily scout your base by sacking an overlord and/or just build one spore crawler as a precaution. And once you do send your DT and they have detection, you're pretty much way behind. As you take your expansion, they should already be building their 3rd and the rest of the game is playing catch-up to the zerg. You're contradicting. Even if you do get the scouting you need, which you should be able to get just with a look at the unitcount of protoss (Air or DTs depending on sentry count), which basically means you can't get a early third since you either need A) gas to get a quick lair, or B) evo chambers for spores and those are not possible to put up at a third base until it actually hatches, which a DT expand build denies straight up. In effect, even if you show off your build completely, you force zerg to play in a certain way and you effectively gain mapcontrol for a certain amount of time. And Time is everything in SC2. Getting a few drones are ofc always good, but I actually dont think you NEED to kill anything aslong as you dont let your DTs die. The damage done by just having them on the map in making spores and keeping zerg on 2 base for that much longer is a pretty fair trade anyways, and it also puts you closer to blinktech and the likes. I'm not trying to say that there are no cons with the build, but it certainly works on higher levels aswell and can even net you freewins in BoXs. Sacrificing that much economy does set you behind and you do need to do damage. Even if you stall the 3rd, it's only a matter of time until lair is done and they can fend off your DT's in their 3rd. The zerg doesn't have to go out of it's normal build if they know you're going DT's. All they have to do is set up a spore or two (depending on the map where the natural is close to the ramp). If anything, once they know you are going DT's, they are more likely to expand to their third easier since making your army would be delayed as you take your natural. Please provide me your replay doing this vs higher level players. You can even do it to Mr. Bitter.
You talk as if this does not occur. I don't really know what you compare with either, but with a DT expand build you get a bunch of probes and almost as early of a expansion as if it was a standard 3gate expand. The most obvious example would be the game that the build derived from: MC vs July game 4 in the GSL finals. This is a messy game and July could've done alot different, but the Nexus starts before 7 mins, which is pretty much exactly like a standard 3 gate expand would, and that is with constant probe production.
They're ofc made to do damage in one way or the other and as I said before, delaying the third and get mapcontrol would be the main goal, much like if you went the VR route. It's also safer vs roach-ling agression/all-ins. If you loose them, you're obviously behind, but if you can manage to keep them alive (just dont overextend..) and move back you can always morph them into archons and put them in your main army whatever you choose to have that consist of.
It also forces zerg to always have overseers in his main army, which are rather easy to snipe with blinkstalker, and DTs in a main army that does not have detection is deeevastating.
I just dont think it puts you that much behind as you seem to think, since you actually dont sacrafice eco, but rather early game defense (lack of sentries) to get the DTs out on the map. It does however steer you into going certain tech routes (harder to get robo tech out) which just makes it less flexible. Again it can also just give you freewins, so it's deffo good to have in your arsenal.
I'm only a 1.1k master player and not in GM, so I can't provide you with replays of myself doing this to top players, but I've seen it been done before not only by MC, and sorry for not actually remembering the games so I could pull out replays of them, but I watch way to many games that it's hard to keep track.
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EPT
