I didn't think this warranted a thread in General, so I thought I'd just blog it out.
I've spent the last three and a half years slowly working through a Business Diploma (two year degree). Due to a combination of working, and not giving a shit about anything I've been learning, it has taken quite some time. I've had several semesters where I've only done two courses, and I've failed some courses multiple times.
But here I am now, three and a half years since starting fresh out of high school, and I need to change my major. I have no interest in business. I thought I did, but I've changed a lot since then. I no longer have any desire for money or wealth, and I'm filled with an ambition to, in some way, even if it's a tiny blip, to have some affect on society, humanity and the world. I have no desire to try and sell some product, or some service, work in a cubical, make business decisions based off accounting information, or work my way up some corporate ladder.
I spend my free time, the time in between work, school and girlfriend, reading Discovery News, reading wikis, articles and watching videos regarding people like Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, and Einstein or topics such as Super String Theory/M-theory, Astronomy, Cosmology, TED videos, etc. I've really gotten in-touch with my inner-nerd.
Astronomy and Cosmology have been one of my favourite sciences for a couple of years now, I really can't get enough of them. I'm constantly annoying friends and family with random facts that I find so fascinating (which no one else seems to have much care for). It blows my mind that people don't share the same enthusiasm as myself about the Universe.
I'm seriously contemplating finishing off my Business Diploma (which will be done this semester), and starting all over again and getting a degree in Cosmology or Astrophysics. I haven't said anything to the parents yet. I'm fortunate enough to have very financially supportive parents. But I know this is going to sound ridiculous to them, especially considering it has taken me this long just to get a two year degree. But I can seriously see myself being a professor or high school teacher of such topics, even if it's just introductory astronomy. I want to learn and explore more of the Universe, and change the lives of others by teaching them what I know in the process. I also have this desire to cram my brain with as much knowledge as possible; I want to make myself smarter! What I've learned in my spare time over the last year through internet sources, has really changed my perspective on life, reality, and our existence. Money isn't an issue to me at all; I only want to live comfortably. I originally got into business because I was a naive high school kid who wanted to own a Ferrari some day.
Is anyone else majoring in such topics? What's the work load like? How are you enjoying it thus far?
The glass-half-empty side of my conscience is worried that this is just a cliche phase in the life of any twenty-one year old. I gaze into the night sky with a level of understanding and different perspective from my peers. I guess I'm just afraid that I will get burnt out before I have anything to show for it. I also want to become financially independent from my parents, but I won't be able to work enough to support myself while taking on such a high amount of schooling (if I do switch my major, I'm going to get through it ASAP; 4 courses a semester, every semester, including summer). My father really wants to retire; he's worked hard his whole life, and I want to finally see him relax and enjoy life to its fullest. I feel as though the financial burden of my education, and just general support of my living, is an anchor to this goal of his.
I've never really been focused during this diploma. Studying accounting, economics and organizational behavior is torture for me. My parents have recognized this and that is why they're going to be choked to hear I want to start all over again.
But I know I'll be able to knuckle down if I love what I'm learning.
I've also never done any form of traveling. I was thinking that perhaps I should meet new and interesting people, and explore new cultures and different parts of the world. I also really want to travel to South America to drink some ayahusca, in addition to trying psilocybin mushrooms this summer. Perhaps such experiences will give me more direction haha.
I want to live a happy and fulfilling life. I believe at this time that a career in Cosmology, Astrophysics, Astronomy, or teaching said topics, is the path to such fulfillment. I want to break down the egos of others, and change perspectives on the system, our way of life, and the state of Humanity with these disciplines as my tools. I feel lucky to be the generation of the paradigm shift; I think we'll experience some great things in the next half century, mainly of a technological nature. Perhaps I'll some day have the opportunity to go into space myself with such a career?
What to do TL-net? What alternatives to switching majors would you recommend? Am I being too hasty in my decision? Should I just go for it? Am I overlooking anything?
Don't go into teaching just because you love the topic that you want to teach (not saying this is necessarily you, but just keep this in mind). This is less big of a deal for being a professor but it is also very difficult to become a professor. Also, most teachers don't just teach astronomy in high schools.
It will be convenient if your belief that you will buckle down in astronomy is founded and that you won't have the problems with the new degree that you have had with the current one... but my guess is (without knowing you) that you won't be able to escape the problems you had with your business program. I don't think any of my classmates when I was a physics major were people who would have failed to get their business degree in 2 years like they had originally planned.
What type of program of study would you do exactly? Can you study cosmology as an undergraduate? My college had astronomy as an optional add-on to physics as an undergrad. By the way, are you prepared to do a ton of math?
Hopefully my advice and that of others will help you make a decision.
If you want to travel and explore cultures, a career in anthropology and/or archaeology is a great choice for that.
But if you really want to break down egos of others and have an effect on society or people, a career in criminology or forensic psychology is probably the best choice. You get to catch murderers, crush their egos because they think they are smarter than the police and you get to change peoples lives by giving victims families closure and save future possible victims.
Sure it's not going to be like an action movie or TV-show but personally I'm considering a career in criminology and forensic psychology because the psychology of serial killers fascinate me. And if I can save a human life by stopping a murderer then that's more valuable than any amount of money.
-Am I underestimating the amount of math I'll be doing? Most likely. I failed grade 12 math twice (got it on the third attempt, lol), simply because I never did homework. I then found myself in a situation where I had to pass a Calculus 1 course, and got 92% overall; this was the first time I realized I was capable of doing well at anything I really set my mind to; the thought of even getting a C+ in such a course seemed ridiculous at the time). I've always been someone full of potential, but never succeeded due to focus. I'm hoping my new found passion for these subjects will spark the focus I've always been lacking. Business courses have always been easy, and I've recognized this. Essentially zero homework and not doing the readings, and getting through just from class lectures is what's hindered me throughout my post-secondary career. I'm thinking the fact that these courses will be so intellectually demanding, is what will motivate me.
-Does it take a special type of person to do sciences? Like you said (micronesia), none of your classmates were the type of people who'd fail to get a business degree. I feel like I'd definitely need a whole new approach to education to do this. But what makes me optimistic are the few electives I have taken in the past few years, such as Intro. Astronomy, Psychology, and Philosophy, that I thoroughly enjoyed and easily got high marks in; I was able to dedicate to studying because I enjoyed what I was learning. Some people, like your classmates for example, may have been those type of people that can be successful in anything, whether they hate what they're learning or not.
-My current University doesn't offer any programs. I'm going to have to do a general science diploma, or a minor in physics and transfer to a new school. The diploma requires me to take courses from several disciplines, but I have the choice to also focus in specific areas (which will be physics in my case, with Astronomy electives). I still don't know the full details of the transferable programs, I've yet to seek education advice as I'm still on the fence about going for this.
On June 09 2011 19:38 SolHeiM wrote: Sure it's not going to be like an action movie or TV-show but personally I'm considering a career in criminology and forensic psychology because the psychology of serial killers fascinate me. And if I can save a human life by stopping a murderer then that's more valuable than any amount of money.
I doubt you need to be special (as in genius) to do a good job in science as long as you make it a point to really know your subject. A scientist reads a lot because they have to be kept up to date on everything that's relevant to their field. If you are passionate about your subject you're going to excel at it because you want to know everything that relates to it.
Please make sure you truly love the subject, and not just pop sci cosmology and string theory that tends to "pollute" an "outsider" perception of the sciences. Calculus I is probably not going to be enough to get you through a physics degree.
On June 09 2011 19:38 SolHeiM wrote: Sure it's not going to be like an action movie or TV-show but personally I'm considering a career in criminology and forensic psychology because the psychology of serial killers fascinate me. And if I can save a human life by stopping a murderer then that's more valuable than any amount of money.
On June 09 2011 19:53 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Please make sure you truly love the subject, and not just pop sci cosmology and string theory that tends to "pollute" an "outsider" perception of the sciences. Calculus I is probably not going to be enough to get you through a physics degree.
Agreed. The YouTube stuff you watch on String Theory and Astronomy etc that sum out decades worth of scientific work is very dumbed down and is meant to be easy to understand to attract ratings. Don't think that at any point in your early undergraduate career its going to be discussions on String theory and mind fucks galore - it'll be by the textbook math and physics and a lot of things you may find tedious.
Not trying to discourage you because if you truly have a passion for this stuff, you'll work through all of it. To really get involved in the latest science happenings, you'll probably have to get into research, and profs really want a strong background in basic college math and physics before they mentor you, and even then you have to work your way up to a decent level of understanding of the subject. To work your way into being a professor from grad school is even more tough, you have to publish some really groundbreaking or thought provoking work!
I guess to leave off on a more positive note - switching majors to something you really enjoy is like a huge breath of fresh air. There is a lot of overhead and GE's you may need to take care of but once you study the things you really enjoy its a great invigorating feeling. I have no idea what type of person you are but I hope your decisions bring you out of your current rut!
Get jobs in the fields you're considering (teaching, astronomy, astrophysics) or as close as you can get with your background.
Your aim is to see the work and do the work for a few months so you can learn what it will be like. Your mentors will be valuable sources of knowledge.
Then decide.
It will be hard because nobody will want to give you a job. Nevertheless, every kid should be doing this. Making a career decision without ever having experienced the job?
On June 09 2011 20:56 Warble wrote: Seriously? The best advice I can give you?
Get jobs in the fields you're considering (teaching, astronomy, astrophysics) or as close as you can get with your background.
Your aim is to see the work and do the work for a few months so you can learn what it will be like. Your mentors will be valuable sources of knowledge.
Then decide.
It will be hard because nobody will want to give you a job. Nevertheless, every kid should be doing this. Making a career decision without ever having experienced the job?
Seriously.
Please tell me where you can get a job in astrophysics with no knowledge of the subject and work there for a few months being dead weight. Jobs like that go to students who are actually in school majoring in that subject because they are there to learn.
It will take a long time to reach the topics you are interested in if you start science now. But you should do it anyways because science is the best. Its a lot of really hard work, totally different from the work that you have been doing in business. You are finishing your degree after committing to it for 3 years right? You definitely should.
EDIT: about not reaching the topics you find interesting for a long time basically what the person beneath me said. Lots lots lots of things to cover before you get there.
On June 09 2011 20:56 Warble wrote: Seriously? The best advice I can give you?
Get jobs in the fields you're considering (teaching, astronomy, astrophysics) or as close as you can get with your background.
Your aim is to see the work and do the work for a few months so you can learn what it will be like. Your mentors will be valuable sources of knowledge.
Then decide.
It will be hard because nobody will want to give you a job. Nevertheless, every kid should be doing this. Making a career decision without ever having experienced the job?
Seriously.
Rofl, the only jobs in astronomy or astrophyics are going to physics PhDs or postdocs.
Also, for the math, expect to go through calc 3, linear algebra, pde/odes and perhaps some analysis. You might also need to take more advanced calculus (things like method of residues, contour integration, etc.), but you also might not.
There's no way calc one is going to get you through anything in physics except a basic mechanics class (and probably something like basic optics, too, but that generally has prereqs that require more calc).
So yeah, I'd brush up on your math now. Real physics is nothing like what it's being sold to the public as.
I went into college wanting to major in political science and economics. I realized I only liked my math classes and switched to a math major. I'm barely into my second year of the program and it's damn near wasted me.
The big problem is catching up in sciences. I didn't take any sciences in high school so I have had to start at the bottom. I was very much like you. I loved reading wikis and all sorts of fascinating books on physics and the wonders of the world.
But there is a huge difference in reading A Brief History of Time and taking a real physics class on mechanics. You don't just sit in a lecture and listen to the professor read a whack ton of cool, interesting facts about the universe. No. It is very difficult. Very difficult. Let me emphasize that for you: Very Difficult. It is a lot more tedious and rigorous than what is shown in documentaries and pop sci books. There is a huge difference between Liberal Arts/Business and Sciences. Sciences are very difficult and require a lot of time, hard work, dedication, and even more motivation.
The whole last year all I wanted to do was be a mathematician. I love math. I read all the books, love all my homework, love my lectures, and love the community. I've become quite entrenched in it. I also realized, after that year (circa now), that this will never happen. The biggest thing I have to look forward to is to enjoy the upper level math classes that I am so excited for (Number Theory, Real Analysis, Group Theory) and, hopefully, get accepted into a Charted Accountant program when I'm done the BSc. I am just not as good as the people who have been into it their whole lives, the ones who will go onto good PhD programs and get professorships.
Also if you plan to be a scientist, you will most likely wind up being somebodys lab bitch. You will not make good pay. The politics in academia is just as ruthless and competitive as anywhere else, if not more.
After reading your post, you seem like a very idealistic person with intents on helping humanity, advancing our knowledge about the world, and whatnot. This was like me when I first went into a science degree a few years ago. However, after grinding it out for a degree and seeing the inner workings of a research lab (the endless failures, the excruciatingly slow progress, the grant committee!!), I lost some of that spark heh.
As has been stated above, real science is not that simple. The underlying goals are idealistic but there is a lot of politics, jerks, and other setbacks. It takes a special person to rise above all the BS and still just love the topic they're working on. (I'm referring to research - which is something you need to do as a prof lol)
Anyways, I would suggest looking into what a professor's day is like and whether or not you would enjoy doing the things he/she does. I'm sure there must be blogs and stuff out there... try to see both sides before deciding. At the end of the day, science can be very rewarding!
On June 09 2011 21:31 rushz0rz wrote: Also if you plan to be a scientist, you will most likely wind up being somebodys lab bitch. You will not make good pay. The politics in academia is just as ruthless and competitive as anywhere else, if not more.
Go for a Ph.D. and you get bitches assigned to you. I don't like how you just throw in the towel because it was a little difficult for you. Just gives up on the dream because it got a little tough.
On June 09 2011 21:31 rushz0rz wrote: Also if you plan to be a scientist, you will most likely wind up being somebodys lab bitch. You will not make good pay. The politics in academia is just as ruthless and competitive as anywhere else, if not more.
Go for a Ph.D. and you get bitches assigned to you. I don't like how you just throw in the towel because it was a little difficult for you. Just gives up on the dream because it got a little tough.
LOL. It is quite hard to get into a worthwhile PhD program. And then you have to do something worthwhile.
On June 09 2011 21:31 rushz0rz wrote: Also if you plan to be a scientist, you will most likely wind up being somebodys lab bitch. You will not make good pay. The politics in academia is just as ruthless and competitive as anywhere else, if not more.
Go for a Ph.D. and you get bitches assigned to you. I don't like how you just throw in the towel because it was a little difficult for you. Just gives up on the dream because it got a little tough.
LOL. It is quite hard to get into a worthwhile PhD program. And then you have to do something worthwhile.
You can actually start your own program and apply for a research grant. There are tens of thousands of universities all over the world. Some dude did a Ph.D. on Che Guevara (or w/e his name is). If you want to do a Ph.D. there are universities who offer them if you just look hard enough.
On June 09 2011 20:56 Warble wrote: Seriously? The best advice I can give you?
Get jobs in the fields you're considering (teaching, astronomy, astrophysics) or as close as you can get with your background.
Your aim is to see the work and do the work for a few months so you can learn what it will be like. Your mentors will be valuable sources of knowledge.
Then decide.
It will be hard because nobody will want to give you a job. Nevertheless, every kid should be doing this. Making a career decision without ever having experienced the job?
Seriously.
Please tell me where you can get a job in astrophysics with no knowledge of the subject and work there for a few months being dead weight. Jobs like that go to students who are actually in school majoring in that subject because they are there to learn.
I said it will be hard.
The problem is that you're thinking too literally. Of course you can't get a job as an astrophysicist without having qualifications as an astrophysicist. So you don't go for that.
The key is to get a job as close as you can get.
Be a receptionist. Be the unskilled lackey who does all the boring jobs like entering the numbers onto the spreadsheets. Work for free if you have to (although consider what you're giving up).
Yes, it will still be hard. Like I said, nobody will want to give you a job.
But hell, it is still the best thing you can do and it is still worth trying.
Because the alternative is wasting another year of your life and adding to your crippling debt. Or worse: he learns he's good at the maths and he wastes 4 years of his life and learns that the job itself is very different from the training (studying).
At least he can try out for one of the jobs on his list (teaching). It is much easier to get something near that job.
Look, what I'm saying is, don't think you know how you feel on the job until you've done the job or at least seen it firsthand. I enjoy SC2 and poker but I wouldn't want to play either for a living. In many fields there's a big difference between enjoying the subject and actually doing it for a living.
What does it cost you to try to get a job that gets you in touch with an astrophysicist? A few hours typing up resumes and cover letters, a few hours researching likely prospects, and maybe $50 in printing costs and postage. Then you spend your summer working there, or maybe your free days during semester (if you land a job).
I never said you can't start studying the field while doing this. But it's better to learn that you hate working as an astrophysicist in your 2nd year than after you've graduated. And it's easier to get placements in your 2nd year than before you've started.
Come to think of it, Freeloss, have you actually worked in the fields that your current studies would lead to? They might not reflect your studies at all. Just a thought.
EDIT: I should add that one of your goals will be to talk to the veterans in the field while you're working near them. Not while on the job, of course. On your lunch breaks or something. Let's face it: if they're nice enough to give you a job there, then they'll probably be willing to help you decide whether your future lays there.
How the fuck is being a receptionist anything like being an astrophysicist? And if you're going to be a receptionist for a team of astrophysicists you need to have knowledge of astrophysics because you handle requests involving astrophysics.
As Empyrean said, those jobs go to university students, postdocs or Ph.D students, not to some unemployed business school drop-out.
On June 09 2011 22:01 SolHeiM wrote: How the fuck is being a receptionist anything like being an astrophysicist? And if you're going to be a receptionist for a team of astrophysicists you need to have knowledge of astrophysics because you handle requests involving astrophysics.
As Empyrean said, those jobs go to university students, postdocs or Ph.D students, not to some unemployed business school drop-out.
I don't understand why you're so hostile.
If he's out of luck, then he's out of luck. It's not like I said, "You MUST do this before switching courses." I just said it should be his top priority to learn about the job before he wastes too many years on it, and I said it may not be within the realm of possibility.
Like I said, he can at least see what life is like for a teacher.
I haven't entered university yet, but I'm pretty sure they tell you what life is like as a professional in <science> during your first year or first month even when you're being introduced to your courses. And what you learn is going to be relevant for your entire life as a professional in your field. It's not going to be a surprise that after five or six years of obtaining a bachelors and masters degree you realize you don't like it because you thought it would be more fun.
On June 09 2011 22:08 SolHeiM wrote: I haven't entered university yet.
And I have a degree I do not use. Guess what field it's in?
I gave him advice I would have given myself in his situation.
Seriously.
The advice you gave him is be a receptionist and you'll learn what it's like to be an astrophysicist. What you'll learn is what life is like as a receptionist.
Engineering and Business are the two best things to be in right now. Bonus points for both. Sciences come in a close second, but the applicability and availability of jobs is not as prevalent.
I've never agreed with NOT completing a degree however. See it though so you have something under your belt and change later. Don't waste the money you've already spent and let that accumulated knowledge go to waste. (It will go to waste if you don't have a degree to back it up; the associated credibility is everything in the working world.)
Honestly, science classes in university are very hard. Engineering classes are the hardest of the hard. Astrophysics classes are notoriously hard. My school has an Engineering and Physics Option that only 3 people have graduated from in the past 25 years. If you're not capable of doing the work then you're going to be sorely disappointed.
Honestly, as a mechanical engineer I have more of a shot of working in aerospace than you ever will. Even if you take astrophysics you'll likely end up in some branch of research that may not result in anything rewarding at all, and then you'll have to teach.
tl;dr
Stay the course and consider taking classes later out of interest/improvement. Consider science as a second degree to work towards. You might find that you're not cut out for the actual work, so you should at least have a Business degree to fall back on.
Being a receptionist is better than nothing. At the same time it's not a total loss since he'll get paid and it's work experience (that's why I said to have a serious think before being willing to work for free).
If he sits at home and reads books on astrophysics he'll learn nothing about what it's like to be an astrophysicist.
If he works as a receptionist for an organisation that deals with astrophysics he'll get a clearer idea of the work they do and then he can talk to them during breaks.
I still reckon it's worth him applying. Sure, he'll probably get rejected. So what?
He still has a good shot at learning something about teaching.
On June 09 2011 22:23 Warble wrote: Being a receptionist is better than nothing. At the same time it's not a total loss since he'll get paid and it's work experience (that's why I said to have a serious think before being willing to work for free).
If he sits at home and reads books on astrophysics he'll learn nothing about what it's like to be an astrophysicist.
If he works as a receptionist for an organisation that deals with astrophysics he'll get a clearer idea of the work they do and then he can talk to them during breaks.
I still reckon it's worth him applying. Sure, he'll probably get rejected. So what?
He still has a good shot at learning something about teaching.
Then he might as well just call an astrophysicist and ask them what they do during the day instead of wasting a summer being a receptionist.
On June 09 2011 22:23 Warble wrote: Being a receptionist is better than nothing. At the same time it's not a total loss since he'll get paid and it's work experience (that's why I said to have a serious think before being willing to work for free).
If he sits at home and reads books on astrophysics he'll learn nothing about what it's like to be an astrophysicist.
If he works as a receptionist for an organisation that deals with astrophysics he'll get a clearer idea of the work they do and then he can talk to them during breaks.
I still reckon it's worth him applying. Sure, he'll probably get rejected. So what?
He still has a good shot at learning something about teaching.
Then he might as well just call an astrophysicist and ask them what they do during the day instead of wasting a summer being a receptionist.
You really want to affect society? Give up your social life for four years save up enough for a lot of beer and get a B.Eng One day you will be part of a 15 man team that patents a slightly better generator that will be popularized in industry buildings. No one will ever know your name but you will save thousands and thousands of kWh over the years. Get a nice little bonus for more beer.
Just saying your "ideologies" align better with applied engineering than academic physics. ERTW
On June 09 2011 22:23 Warble wrote: Being a receptionist is better than nothing. At the same time it's not a total loss since he'll get paid and it's work experience (that's why I said to have a serious think before being willing to work for free).
If he sits at home and reads books on astrophysics he'll learn nothing about what it's like to be an astrophysicist.
If he works as a receptionist for an organisation that deals with astrophysics he'll get a clearer idea of the work they do and then he can talk to them during breaks.
I still reckon it's worth him applying. Sure, he'll probably get rejected. So what?
He still has a good shot at learning something about teaching.
Then he might as well just call an astrophysicist and ask them what they do during the day instead of wasting a summer being a receptionist.
If this was the case, internships wouldn't exist.
You haven't read what we've been discussing have you?
Having briefly studied natural sciences and getting an engineering degree, I find that above all else you need to be passionate about your field -- everything else comes second to your curiosity and long-term interest in the subject. I enjoy cosmology as much as the next nerd, but realize that the majority of your studies will be in relativistic physics, optics, a little chemistry, a little electronics -- a bit of work all around and it won't all be interesting at first.
My best advice if you have an opportunity is to find out what kind of laboratory work you can get as a student (you will probably have to take relevant classes first and the pay will suck). Talk to graduate students and post docs in the lab, see if the grunt work is for you. If you find the grunt work interesting, then it's probably a good field for you.
My impression of astronomy is that it is less hobby eye-telescoping in a night time observatory and more computer programming of telescopes and signal analysis of the data by day. You'll probably be staring at a computer screen most of the time.
Sure, if you can get much information out of an astrophysicist just by cold calling, you can get some useful information that way, and trying to do that is pretty much a given. I still think it's worthwhile to try to get a job there over the summer.
It's all about opportunity costs. He's a student, so what would he have been doing over that summer? Probably working or on vacation. If he's already working, then sending out 5 extra resumes gives him a slim chance of learning even more about his future career. Is it worth giving up the vacation? That's up to him.
By the way, SolHeiM, I removed my post above because I felt I was making things too personal and cheap. Would you mind removing the quote from your post too? Your post will still make sense afterwards. Then we can discuss the idea on its merits rather than on personal qualifications.
On June 09 2011 22:15 TheGiz wrote: Engineering and Business are the two best things to be in right now. Bonus points for both. Sciences come in a close second, but the applicability and availability of jobs is not as prevalent.
I highly disagree with business being a useful thing to major in as an undergrad. The American tertiary education system churns out legions of "business" majors every year and I'd be willing to bet a great deal that the vast majority get entry level bitch jobs or jobs in the service industry. Not as bad as, say, communications, but still, not very good. Unless you go into a rigorous program like Wharton or something (and by something I mean a very few select other programs), you're not going to learn anything substantive, and the glitzy high pay jobs you're going after will have been taken by computer scientists, mathematicians, and engineers.
As for being a receptionist for an astrophysicist, I think it's a pretty bad idea. At the very best, you're going to work for a bemused professor who thinks the idea of a secretary being interested in physics is charming. My Fair Lady style.
By all means, OP, only you can decide what's best for you after carefully weighing your options. If you're passionate enough to pursue a degree in physics, then by all means. I feel like I say this way too much, and sorry if I'm being a downer, but sometimes idealism needs to give way to reality.
On June 09 2011 22:08 SolHeiM wrote: I haven't entered university yet, but I'm pretty sure they tell you what life is like as a professional in <science> during your first year or first month even when you're being introduced to your courses. And what you learn is going to be relevant for your entire life as a professional in your field. It's not going to be a surprise that after five or six years of obtaining a bachelors and masters degree you realize you don't like it because you thought it would be more fun.
On June 09 2011 19:33 micronesia wrote: I have a few thoughts:
[list] [*]Don't go into teaching just because you love the topic that you want to teach (not saying this is necessarily you, but just keep this in mind). This is less big of a deal for being a professor but it is also very difficult to become a professor. Also, most teachers don't just teach astronomy in high schools.
On June 09 2011 22:23 Warble wrote: Being a receptionist is better than nothing. At the same time it's not a total loss since he'll get paid and it's work experience (that's why I said to have a serious think before being willing to work for free).
If he sits at home and reads books on astrophysics he'll learn nothing about what it's like to be an astrophysicist.
If he works as a receptionist for an organisation that deals with astrophysics he'll get a clearer idea of the work they do and then he can talk to them during breaks.
I still reckon it's worth him applying. Sure, he'll probably get rejected. So what?
He still has a good shot at learning something about teaching.
Then he might as well just call an astrophysicist and ask them what they do during the day instead of wasting a summer being a receptionist.
If this was the case, internships wouldn't exist.
You haven't read what we've been discussing have you?
I have. I don't know what you want me to catch here. Warble is suggesting he gets some experience working as close as he possibly can to the field instead of staying at home reading books all day. He hasn't taken any classes yet and this is a way for him to get a feel for what he is getting into. I don't see how this is a terrible idea? It doesn't have to be being a receptionist at all either. He could even work for free helping at the center. You learn things by seeing them first hand. You see years of experience at work. Same way fashion designers intern at clothing companies. How do you substitute first-hand experience with a phone call?
First, I would definitely finish the business degree, which you seem to be planning on doing. You are probably underestimating how hard it is to get a degree in the hard sciences. I was consistently in the top 10% of my medical school, but as an undergrad the physics and chemistry majors I hung out with would blow me away.
As with any big change it is probably best to start slow. How about just taking 1 or 2 classes next semester, or even just buying the textbooks and asking the professors if you can audit the classes. I doubt the astrophysics class is too crowded at your school. If you can catch up on the math and are really enjoying yourself then you can consider pursuing the major.
On June 09 2011 19:33 micronesia wrote: I have a few thoughts:
[list] [*]Don't go into teaching just because you love the topic that you want to teach (not saying this is necessarily you, but just keep this in mind). This is less big of a deal for being a professor but it is also very difficult to become a professor. Also, most teachers don't just teach astronomy in high schools.
Can you go more into this micronesia?
I'm not micronesia, but can you think of a high school that would be willing to hire a teacher to solely teach intro. to astronomy to high school students?
A high school where you can find enough students to take that class is rare enough.
As for becoming a professor, you're first going to need a PhD, then fight through the legions of other PhDs for the few academic positions available.
Don't want to be an ass but you don't exactly seem like the most intelligent or the most dedicated guy around. You said you wanted to do business at the beggining, but changed your mind half way through. Well first of all the same thing may happen with physics, and you will be wasting your parents cash, even more of it anyway, and second if you're failing business classes i'm having a hard time believing you'll pass physics classes. I don't know if your failing is only because you don't care about what you're doing, but to pass physics , unless your very gifted, you will be putting in many hours of studying.
I would reccomend working in the business field and saving for a portion of your physics education. if you decide that you want it so much, are so convinced that you'll stick to it that you're willing to give up your own savings, and not only your parent's, then do it. If it's not worth that much too you you're probably not going to pass, or stick with it anyway
EDIT: If you plan on being a teacher you'll be teaching the same stuff every year, and no longer "discovering" all the new and interesting physics topics. If you enjoy physics because it's something fresh in your life, then becoming a teacher is not a good idea
I did something similiar. I started out doing two years of accounting before switching to science.
Most of the astro classes are run through physics departments, so make sure to brush up on your math and physics. Also I imagine your first two years will be full of general sciences like compsci and chemistry as well.
You mention you've taken some rather slow semesters (two courses) and failed courses multiple times. You should know, you have to sit through a lot of random bullshit classes that have nothing to do with what you're interested in regardless of what program you choose.
Also, at least from the universities I've attended 4 courses is only 80% courseload, and I wouldn't suggest rushing through it going through the summer as well. I've done that before, and it will burn you out fast.
I started out in a Computer Science/Finance program and then switched into Math halfway through first year, now I'm doing my thesis Masters (also in Math).
If you want to teach Astrophysics or things along those lines at a university, you will need a Ph.D, you will need a post doc, and you will need motivation and lots of time. From what you're saying about your university experiences, I seriously advise you not to undertake this. When I hear you talk about "I failed a bunch of courses because I simply did not do the work", I know you are not suited for it. It does not matter if, when you apply yourself, you are Albert Einstein (and 92% in Calculus really isn't anything to call home about if you plan on becoming an academic). The people who you will be competing against, especially in such a small field, will not only have better marks, but more work ethic and motivation.
Doing graduate work is a slog. You need to find a professor who cares, you need to get funding (and trust me NSERCs aren't easy to get, since you're Canadian), you'll need to spend long hours in the office doing research and grinding through academic papers that are seemingly written to be as confusing as possible. You'll need to deal with internal politics, which are brutal, you'll need to throw yourself into your work, and you'll need to be prepared to be cutthroat and watch for other people trying to steal your work.
It's hard to get out of the academic Ph.D/Post doc land. Some people are trapped there for years, getting paid < $30k per year, hoping that someday they will get a Faculty position when really it will never happen for the majority of postdocs.
I see that one of your goals was to humble people to the universe, but perhaps you should be humbled to the life of science and academics. Listening to a TED lecture and Carl Sagan extolling the virtues of the universe is awesome and enjoyable, but when you get down to the nitty gritty of it you're pounding math and staring at a piece of paper for hours.
That said, I do tell people to follow their dreams. In the best case, they're happier and live a fulfilling life; in the worst case they'll learn a hard lesson which they need to learn. If you are fully prepared to throw your whole life into science, then by all means, go for it. But if you start and you find yourself failing courses because you're not paying attention or doing the work, do not say "I can do the work, I just didn't put the effort into it!", because that's not true. If you don't put in the effort, it means you can't do the work.
On June 09 2011 22:15 TheGiz wrote: Engineering and Business are the two best things to be in right now. Bonus points for both. Sciences come in a close second, but the applicability and availability of jobs is not as prevalent.
Unless you go into a rigorous program like Wharton or something (and by something I mean a very few select other programs), you're not going to learn anything substantive, and the glitzy high pay jobs you're going after will have been taken by computer scientists, mathematicians, and engineers.
Is this something you know is true or something you really want to believe is true? Because I really want to believe this is true but it runs counter to everything everyone tells me
On June 09 2011 22:15 TheGiz wrote: Engineering and Business are the two best things to be in right now. Bonus points for both. Sciences come in a close second, but the applicability and availability of jobs is not as prevalent.
Unless you go into a rigorous program like Wharton or something (and by something I mean a very few select other programs), you're not going to learn anything substantive, and the glitzy high pay jobs you're going after will have been taken by computer scientists, mathematicians, and engineers.
Is this something you know is true or something you really want to believe is true? Because I really want to believe this is true but it runs counter to everything everyone tells me
I fully believe this to be true. I view undergraduate business the same way I view law school. Sure, you can be quite successful at it, but unless you're in a top top program, you pretty much just wasted your time and money for the degree.
However, be very aware that as others have said, you will do math and lots of it in any science major. It's best to be sure that you enjoy the practice of science as well as the facts or mystery of science.
Many interesting points have already been pointed out especially from TheGiz and mmp. Since this is a quite important decision you have to figure out what it actually means to take a major in physics/astrophysics. Here's what I would suggest:
Buy: "The Feynman Lectures on Physics" by Richard Feynman (it's a bit expensive but it's your future), read the first hundred pages or so and see whether you like it or not. Are you still as excited as before?? If you are then I would say go for it. You will spend many hours each weak solving exercises. This can be quite fun but requires that you have the intellectual capacity. Expect a lot of math! It is possible to find a job afterwards but it's tougher than if you have an engineering degree unless you want to be a teacher (at least in Scandinavien).
Tbh, I would say that an engineering degree is better for you in the long run. More money to travel around in the world, meet cultures, and to take time off to read philosophy which is pretty much what it seems like you want to do.
On June 09 2011 22:15 TheGiz wrote: Engineering and Business are the two best things to be in right now. Bonus points for both. Sciences come in a close second, but the applicability and availability of jobs is not as prevalent.
Unless you go into a rigorous program like Wharton or something (and by something I mean a very few select other programs), you're not going to learn anything substantive, and the glitzy high pay jobs you're going after will have been taken by computer scientists, mathematicians, and engineers.
Is this something you know is true or something you really want to believe is true? Because I really want to believe this is true but it runs counter to everything everyone tells me
I fully believe this to be true. I view undergraduate business the same way I view law school. Sure, you can be quite successful at it, but unless you're in a top top program, you pretty much just wasted your time and money for the degree.
I feel the same with business. But I don't think the problem is where you study but in what you specialize after. The biggest industries are always looking for business people to manage their regional or international branches, but people don't come prepared to work in a certain industry so the companies have to teach them how the business works and it takes from months to years until they are able to do the job they are expected to do. I have a major in Business Administration & International Business and I didn't have to struggle to get hired since I live in Panama which has the largest free trade zone in America, you just need to find what the market demands and specialize.
I'd say the biggest businesses are looking for people with a demonstrated quantitative aptitude and are quick learners. This is why mathematicians, computer scientists, statisticians, etc. who decide to go into business get a far greater share of highly sought after jobs with high pay while generic "business graduates" usually get stuck doing low-mid level grunt work.
EDIT: And generally where you study correlates very well with demonstrated intellectual skills.
On June 09 2011 23:48 JodoYodo wrote: I started out in a Computer Science/Finance program and then switched into Math halfway through first year, now I'm doing my thesis Masters (also in Math).
Started out in Waterloo CFM?
On June 10 2011 00:39 Empyrean wrote: I'd say the biggest businesses are looking for people with a demonstrated quantitative aptitude and are quick learners. This is why mathematicians, computer scientists, statisticians, etc. who decide to go into business get a far greater share of highly sought after jobs with high pay while generic "business graduates" usually get stuck doing low-mid level grunt work.
EDIT: And generally where you study correlates very well with demonstrated intellectual skills.
So what do you think of the people that major in Quantitative Finance/Math & Economics/Financial Economics/Economics that actually require you to use math. Do you think they would be more successful than the other business majors?
I am starting my 3rd year as an electrical engineering major and I can tell you that you better be ready for what your getting in for. Some of my hardest classes were physics and basic quantum physics of semiconductors. Astrophysicists not only have to learn all about the heavens, but about general physics as well. Physics is what I call an acquired taste, its extremely difficult, yet extremely useful. I wouldn't jump into a program in astronomy without taking several physics and chemistry classes, they are the best test to see if you can take the course load. Also, be prepared to be fluent in mathematics and maybe some light programming.
Aside from actually taking the classes, I can tell you the best advice I've been given when choosing a major is to be practical. Not only should you note your own abilities, but whether or not its all worth it in the end. I don't think you will have much use from an astronomy degree to be honest. A degree in astronomy, will likely only lead you to being a lab rat or a professor (both routes are often riddled with mundane lab work). Being a professor takes obscene devotion imo, you have to take something seriously enough to spend almost a decade to master, and afterwards all you do is teach and research. I don't have the desire nor patience to be a professor for my younger years, I suggest you consider it yourself.
Another suggestion that you might consider if you don't think you could be a lab rat/professor is mechanical engineering/aerospace engineering. This may be the engineer in me talking, but I would recommend it as it is a more practical job for someone interested in physics and astronomy. You might not get to do research on the little subtleties of astronomy, but you could work on something valuable which is used in space research.
Right now you come off as a dreamer who has just found a new "puppy love". If you are really devoted, take some difficult physics (Newtonian mechanics, electricity and magnetism) and chemistry (general university chemistry for engineers and scientists). Best of luck in what ever you decide.
I agree with Empyrean here. When employers look at your CV and stuff, they want to see what you can contribute to the business. They want to know the skills you have and how you think. What you think isn't important, because that can be taught. To a business, someone with a massive skillset and great potential is much better than someone who already knows business but not much else since you can always sponsor the first guy for a part-time MBA or something while you can't teach the second guy how to think.
When you get a degree, the grade is a form of signalling. It doesn't say "hey, I know how to differentiate between the individualism and holism as methods of inquiry". It says "I can get things done". The university you go to is also a good form of signalling. It shows "I want to succeed so I worked hard to get here and I will continue to work hard".
As for the OP's problem... Astrophysics isn't fun and games. Even at the basic level there's a load of math. Science in general at the academic level is all about the research you produce. For every big name professor there is, there are hundreds of people who got their PhD, worked away trying to get funding and grants and never got anywhere. You pretty much have to start at the bottom doing lab work before you really get a chance to do anything big. You really have to be committed. This webcomic is actually pretty accurate about how Grad life is like...
On a similar note, the reason why so many science grads go into finance and business is because it pays well, and there's not enough good opportunities in the field of science. Why try and fight for a professor chair (and then have to deal with tenure) when you can just get a decent job in finance?
On June 10 2011 00:43 The_LiNk wrote: So what do you think of the people that major in Quantitative Finance/Math & Economics/Financial Economics/Economics that actually require you to use math. Do you think they would be more successful than the other business majors?
Definitely. It doesn't take long to figure out things like basic accounting principles or marketing or whatever. However, if you asked a business major to understand, say, why the Black-Scholes Model works or the nitty gritty of the models used to price CDOs they can't.
A point to the OP: in the astronomy class I took, I remember that for one of the more fun homework assignments, the question was basically along the lines of "launch a rocket to Mars." Sounded like a lot of fun. Part of my solution ended up with me using an elliptic integral to estimate distance for part of a trajectory I was calculating. I ended up having points taken off because I didn't account for non-constant speeds along the flight path.
If the idea of slogging through three more semesters of calculus (I actually don't remember learning how to evaluate elliptic integrals at all, to be honest) to be able to solve homework problems excites you, then by all means, pursue it.
Keep in mind, though, that you're competing against hundreds of motivated engineers in calc 3 for whom multivariate calculus is the introductory weed-out class. Then you're going to deal with the basic physics weed out classes (intro mechanics and intro electricity/magnetism), a math weed out class or three (linear algebra, partial/ordinary differential equations) and then more weed outs for the actual physics majors (things like generic electives for statics or thermo or whatnot).
It's not easy, and to be frank, I don't see it being feasible. Keep your interest, though. Going to planetariums/observatories, teaching your kids things about the night sky, etc. is a great thing to do. I just don't see a PhD in physics or astro happening.
EDIT: Full disclosure: I'm not getting a degree in Physics, so someone who is can probably give you more first-hand experience.
On June 09 2011 22:15 TheGiz wrote: Engineering and Business are the two best things to be in right now. Bonus points for both. Sciences come in a close second, but the applicability and availability of jobs is not as prevalent.
Unless you go into a rigorous program like Wharton or something (and by something I mean a very few select other programs), you're not going to learn anything substantive, and the glitzy high pay jobs you're going after will have been taken by computer scientists, mathematicians, and engineers.
Is this something you know is true or something you really want to believe is true? Because I really want to believe this is true but it runs counter to everything everyone tells me
I think that it's true. Almost everyone recognizes that undergraduate 'business' degrees are just jokes for people who can't even handle econ. Even at business schools, most of the classes are pitched at a high undergrad level, and the entire school exists partially due to the networking potential.
The people who succeed in business are: a) People trained well in useful quantitative skills. Engineers, math majors, physics majors, compsci, and the more rigorous econ programs. b) People who are really good at networking. This is pretty much regardless of major. Especially for certain business fields (marketing, etc.), it's 90% networking. c) People who get lucky. Often related to b.
On June 09 2011 23:48 JodoYodo wrote: I started out in a Computer Science/Finance program and then switched into Math halfway through first year, now I'm doing my thesis Masters (also in Math).
Started out in Waterloo CFM?
Yep. Pretty glad I switched. Have a full time job offer where I'll make pretty good money too.
Becoming a scientist was probably the worst decision I have ever made. Funding keeps getting cut and jobs are harder and harder to get. Most people get stuck as postdocs forever and then find themselves with no clear career route. Stay with business and get that Ferrari man.
I'm derailing pretty hard on the economics/business stuff, but I don't think this really warrants another thread, and since it's sort of a mini discussion here. If I should make a new topic in blogs, pm me i guess.
So a BSc in Financial Economics or Math & Economics > BCom/BBA in Finance. I sort of have to make this choice right now and frankly, there really isn't enough information out there about the future of the average holder of these degrees. The information that's out there is really biased.
Also, is there real significance between the future prospects of a BA Economics and a BSc Financial Economics or Math & Economics?
I'm taking this from University of Toronto; since that's the school I'm going to in September. Maybe it's different in other schools/America and you guys are all confused from the distinction.
On June 10 2011 00:52 Chimpalimp wrote: Aside from actually taking the classes, I can tell you the best advice I've been given when choosing a major is to be practical. Not only should you note your own abilities, but whether or not its all worth it in the end. I don't think you will have much use from an astronomy degree to be honest. A degree in astronomy, will likely only lead you to being a lab rat or a professor (both routes are often riddled with mundane lab work).
Let me start off by saying that my undergraduate degree is in physics, and I had a fleeting eight week career as an astrophysics grad student before ditching it for reasons that were unrelated to my interest in the subject matter.
I think that an undergraduate degree in the physical sciences or engineering is almost always going to be a choice that pays off many times over. Regardless of your particular choice of field you'll end up with skills that are broadly useful and exceedingly time consuming to learn, which makes them very valuable for the jobs where they're needed.
A graduate program in the physical sciences should be something you pursue for one reason only: because you love doing the work. Your opportunities as a Ph.D. in any physical science are going to be a lot better than your opportunities with a graduate degree in, say, a humanities field, but they'll likely be fewer than if you had stopped with your bachelor's degree, because some employers will be concerned about hiring someone for a job that doesn't need the credential after you've spent all that time working on it.
That said, I have a number of friends with graduate degrees in the physical sciences who have gone into fields unrelated to their work and been highly successful. A Ph.D. in a physical science is a credential that clearly sets you apart from most of the other people out there in terms of your analytical skills and mathematical ability. The only real question is whether the (substantial) time and effort to get there is worth it.
If you are passionate about the research, get a Ph.D. in a physical science. If you're not, the time spent probably would have been better spent doing something else no matter where you end up afterward.
On June 10 2011 01:02 Empyrean wrote: A point to the OP: in the astronomy class I took, I remember that for one of the more fun homework assignments, the question was basically along the lines of "launch a rocket to Mars." Sounded like a lot of fun. Part of my solution ended up with me using an elliptic integral to estimate distance for part of a trajectory I was calculating. I ended up having points taken off because I didn't account for non-constant speeds along the flight path.
If the idea of slogging through three more semesters of calculus (I actually don't remember learning how to evaluate elliptic integrals at all, to be honest) to be able to solve homework problems excites you, then by all means, pursue it.
Keep in mind, though, that you're competing against hundreds of motivated engineers in calc 3 for whom multivariate calculus is the introductory weed-out class. Then you're going to deal with the basic physics weed out classes (intro mechanics and intro electricity/magnetism), a math weed out class or three (linear algebra, partial/ordinary differential equations) and then more weed outs for the actual physics majors (things like generic electives for statics or thermo or whatnot).
It's not easy, and to be frank, I don't see it being feasible. Keep your interest, though. Going to planetariums/observatories, teaching your kids things about the night sky, etc. is a great thing to do. I just don't see a PhD in physics or astro happening.
EDIT: Full disclosure: I'm not getting a degree in Physics, so someone who is can probably give you more first-hand experience.
Yeah I take a butt ton of Math and can qft your thoughts on the numerous weed out classes.
To the Op: If you're 'really' interested, but, are unsure - I doubt you'd be wasting your time to spend that extra year and finish your business degree and THEN go 'attempt' a sciences bachelor. There are a ton of hurdles in sciences and as the good sir above states, the weeding out is quite repetitive and numerous until 3rd year. It's definitely not your safest option to automatically switch into something you may find is much too hard.
Even the friends I have that are super keeners and really intense about school complain to me all the time about how much work their science degrees are and even though they studied for like 10 hours a day they still didn't get the grades they wanted.
I'm guessing if you were bummed out by homework in high school you're going to be overwhelmed by a science degree. My advice is don't do it lol.
On June 09 2011 19:39 FREEloss_ca wrote: I've always been someone full of potential, but never succeeded due to focus. I'm hoping my new found passion for these subjects will spark the focus I've always been lacking.
That track record isn't going to cut it. Even if you're passionate about it you still don't know HOW to put the work in and what gets the best results. It's easy to tell yourself "I'm passionate, therefore I'll find away", but focus doesn't just grow on trees. Physics is very hard (this coming from a second year chem eng. grad student!) and if you don't have the drive then you won't make it.
Ok, let's say you find a way to make all the studying happen. Are you willing to make the sacrifices needed to succeed? I've spent the last 10 months struggling just to pass and in turn have given up most of a social life, gaming, and not to mention moving 1000 miles away! Of course everyone can say "sure, it's easy", but it doesn't prepare you for the mental toll and the burnout. Honestly, I don't know how I made it through mine and all the effort is forcing questions like "is this REALLY what I want to do?!". In many ways the experience has changed who I am. I talk differently, study math in my free time, and am just starting to get out and make friends outside the department. The point of all this is that not everyone is willing or capable to make the sacrifices and even if they do some aren't able to take the burnout, disillusionment, and realization of what the field ACTUALLY entails.
I'm not saying "don't do it"; if this is the path you want to take do it now! You won't have another chance as opportune as now! Just make sure that you're prepared for war :D
Honestly, if you can't complete a two year business degree in under two years, you're not going to get through a physics degree, unless the only reason you didn't finish the business degree is because you were too busy being bored out of your fucking mind and were skipping classes/partying instead of going to class.
Basically, those classes are just so trivial compared to physics courses that it's going to take more than being passionate. I mean, I did a physics/math double major and courses like functional analysis were cake (literally 1/4 of the effort) compared to upper level physics classes.
Make sure you have some career path planned out before you go to Astrophysics. My Physics teacher did Astrophysics at Oxford, only to become a physics teacher cause he knew he was much better off as a Physics teacher than as an actual Astrophysicist.
I kind of feel bad about what I'm about to do - going to contribute pretty much the same points already made in previous pages - but I'm going to do it anyways =P
First of all, yes do finish your business degree. This should be pretty obvious.
Now, regarding your newly found passion in the stars and the heavens:
- It won't be academically easy. Hope you're ready to do a lot of work, perhaps catch-up work (high school curriculum changes a lot in the four years you've been out of it). As pointed out everywhere in this thread, people entering physics/sciences are usually people that can get 90%+ in all high school math courses (sometimes AP/IB/whatever) without any effort or doing homework.
- Your career options will be narrow. PhD/postdoc or physics teacher. I honestly can't think of any others off the top of my head right now. Neither will pay well unless your name is on the science magazines worldwide. Teaching physics might pay you enough to live comfortably, but getting a teaching job isn't going to be easy either. You may need additional minors/majors/degrees PLUS some connections.
- You will miss out on potential job experience years while enrolling in new four+ years of full-time program. I don't particularly recommend doing part-time studies and part-time work because that's like half-assing both and it will take a lot of determination and talent to pull that off.
- You may be happy the rest of your working career. Now this is a big point that others haven't quite brought it out yet. You know yourself the best, and you found out that you don't want to do business as a career. I don't know just how passionate you are for astronomy and stuff, but it certainly sounds like you'll be happier doing this (than business, at least). It sounds like you're coming from a financially solid family, so you're not in a rush to pay off any debts or start making money anyway. Sacrificing a couple years now can potentially save you from 30+ years of... yeah.
Just for background information, I studied engineering in my undergrad and was fortunate enough to find a full-time job immediately upon graduating. I like my job (but I'm often bored like right now, haha) and I can sort of see how I will progress and advance in the future in my career field. From what I remember, as a rule of thumb, pure physics > engineering and computers > sciences > business in terms of average student's math and logic skills. Now this is just a really quick generalization based on my limited experiences, and please don't quote me on this, but I just wanted to point out how it will be academically challenging!
EPT
More something like the Behavioral Analysis Unit based in Quantico, Virginia for example. 
