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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:38 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 08:03 BandonBanshee wrote:On June 09 2011 07:08 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 07:02 ptbl wrote:
I think Ret, Catz, and the girl is in the wrong. I feel sorry for the dude who got cheated on. As Ret said, there are two sides to a story, but when you have 10+witnesses from MLG confirming the cheated dude's story... +1... I was a fan of ret since BW but this is a bit too much... On June 09 2011 07:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Heh so many lies. In my skype conversation with you you messaged me from her skype after you got into her house I had just found out that you posted on reddit. I didn't know I was doing something so terrible I thought you guys broke up on friday, which technically you did! but I have also heard about some fucked up shit you did. You seem to be enjoying the attention thought but this is really none of anyones business its only between the people involved so I don't want to go and explain myself here on a forum. If you've done nothing wrong then why not explain yourself? You owe it to your fans... He doesn't owe shit to anyone. I'm going to have to disagree Without fans, a pro is nothing Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fans At the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans... Being good at the game = gets you more fans Winning championships = gets you more fans Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in. They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans... The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are today Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers.
can someone close this thread now plz my head is going to explode 
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On June 09 2011 09:37 XenoKai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:35 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 09 2011 09:32 XenoKai wrote:Can someone PLEASE make a scumbag steve meme with rets picture and post here and on reddit? it would be an instant classic  Memes are not allowed here. It'd be off-putting and a terrible joke, do it yourself. ?? i dont remember it saying anything in the OP about not allowing memes and last time i checked you are not a fucking mod BROSEF
On September 13 2004 22:42 mensrea wrote:
[*] Memes, even TL ones, are annoying. Don't 1a2a3a your way to posting over 9000 memes -- we will ban you. There are plenty of places to go if you want to see posters of people failing at things or a humorous caption appended to a photograph of a cat. TeamLiquid is not one of those places.
TL commandments... Please read it before posting...
Also, please respect your fellow forum mates
@rekrul: Okay, then please point out where I've made my errors in judgements. I'm willing to admit that I've made a mistake if you tell me where it is.
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On June 09 2011 09:38 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 08:03 BandonBanshee wrote:On June 09 2011 07:08 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 07:02 ptbl wrote:
I think Ret, Catz, and the girl is in the wrong. I feel sorry for the dude who got cheated on. As Ret said, there are two sides to a story, but when you have 10+witnesses from MLG confirming the cheated dude's story... +1... I was a fan of ret since BW but this is a bit too much... On June 09 2011 07:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Heh so many lies. In my skype conversation with you you messaged me from her skype after you got into her house I had just found out that you posted on reddit. I didn't know I was doing something so terrible I thought you guys broke up on friday, which technically you did! but I have also heard about some fucked up shit you did. You seem to be enjoying the attention thought but this is really none of anyones business its only between the people involved so I don't want to go and explain myself here on a forum. If you've done nothing wrong then why not explain yourself? You owe it to your fans... He doesn't owe shit to anyone. I'm going to have to disagree Without fans, a pro is nothing Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fans At the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans... Being good at the game = gets you more fans Winning championships = gets you more fans Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in. They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans... The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are today Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers.
still they don't owe fans shit. if fans found that the behavior unacceptable then they should feel free to stop being a fan. pros in turn face the consequences of having less fans, if that really happens.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:41 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:37 XenoKai wrote:On June 09 2011 09:35 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 09 2011 09:32 XenoKai wrote:Can someone PLEASE make a scumbag steve meme with rets picture and post here and on reddit? it would be an instant classic Memes are not allowed here. It'd be off-putting and a terrible joke, do it yourself. ?? i dont remember it saying anything in the OP about not allowing memes and last time i checked you are not a fucking mod BROSEF Show nested quote +On September 13 2004 22:42 mensrea wrote:
[*] Memes, even TL ones, are annoying. Don't 1a2a3a your way to posting over 9000 memes -- we will ban you. There are plenty of places to go if you want to see posters of people failing at things or a humorous caption appended to a photograph of a cat. TeamLiquid is not one of those places. TL commandments... Please read it before posting... Also, please respect your fellow forum mates @rekrul: Okay, then please point out where I've made my errors in judgements. I'm willing to admit that I've made a mistake if you tell me where it is.
the only thing a progamer owes to his fans is to try his hardest to give them great games to watch
imo if the progamers really cared about the fans they'd give us more drama ^_^ -->drama sparks interest, interest drives the industry
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On June 09 2011 09:38 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 08:03 BandonBanshee wrote:On June 09 2011 07:08 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 07:02 ptbl wrote:
I think Ret, Catz, and the girl is in the wrong. I feel sorry for the dude who got cheated on. As Ret said, there are two sides to a story, but when you have 10+witnesses from MLG confirming the cheated dude's story... +1... I was a fan of ret since BW but this is a bit too much... On June 09 2011 07:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Heh so many lies. In my skype conversation with you you messaged me from her skype after you got into her house I had just found out that you posted on reddit. I didn't know I was doing something so terrible I thought you guys broke up on friday, which technically you did! but I have also heard about some fucked up shit you did. You seem to be enjoying the attention thought but this is really none of anyones business its only between the people involved so I don't want to go and explain myself here on a forum. If you've done nothing wrong then why not explain yourself? You owe it to your fans... He doesn't owe shit to anyone. I'm going to have to disagree
Without fans, a pro is nothing
Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today
It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fansAt the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans... Being good at the game = gets you more fans Winning championships = gets you more fans Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in.
They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans...The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are todayAm I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers.
I bolded everything that didn't make sense in your post.
For starters, how you think pros need fans to be what they are is beyond comprehension.
Edit: I edited leniency because some things do make sense in the end.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:14 AnalThermometer wrote:
I find it amusing that this is happening in SC2 now.
These things have been happening for years. Theres just more girls now so people are becoming aware of it. Esports events in general are cess pools.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:59 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:14 AnalThermometer wrote:
I find it amusing that this is happening in SC2 now. These things have been happening for years. Theres just more girls now so people are becoming aware of it. Esports events in general are cess pools.
^--- This man loves E-SPORTS events btw.
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Braavos36362 Posts
true, i had to fight off hordes of girls and buy a pair of aviators to stop being recognized
"unban me!!! feature my stream!!! change my icon!!" they cried, my security guys had to usher me out the back.
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On June 09 2011 10:05 Hot_Bid wrote:
true, i had to fight off hordes of girls and buy a pair of aviators to stop being recognized
"unban me!!! feature my stream!!! change my icon!!" they cried, my security guys had to usher me out the back.
ur forgetting that most girls get featured anyway eventually, regardless of skill baller.
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On June 09 2011 08:12 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 08:09 Rekrul wrote:On June 09 2011 08:01 Lunares wrote:On June 09 2011 07:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 09 2011 07:32 Lunares wrote:On June 09 2011 07:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Oh come on guys, some of you must have been blinded by years of media bs giving you a feeling of fucking entitlement. Ret doesn't owe any of you an explanation, because this entire issue is wholly irrelevant to everyone but three or four people. I can understand that this is a funny story and that it produces some entertainment value, but how are any of you influenced by this? You don't know what girl in question and ret talked about in private. you don't know what ex boyfriend and girl in question talked about in private. you don't know what ret's perception of girl in question and ex boyfriend's relationship status was. ret is by no means obliged to tell you either - his status as a professional starcraft two gamer does not mean that every aspect of his private life is up to scrutiny. enjoy the show if you want, but with the exception of ex-boyfriend, none of you have the right to be judgemental. You can't really say that his private life should be staying private. "Famous" people (obviously I am using that term loosely as no SC2 player is really "famous" in north america) do not have the same expectation of privacy, at least in NA, as do the everyday person. There are no laws or anything regarding the matter. The fact is that when you have many people who are your fans, or look up to you, then your personal behavior is subject to more scrutiny simply because you have more people watching what you do. The same is true for any sports star or actor, anything "personal" they do that reflects badly upon them is quite often found out by paparazzi and sold. Gossip, drama, etc is a good business. Ret is by no means obliged to tell us anything but we absolutely have the right to be judgemental, especially if we are only given one side of a story that paints ret in a bad light that he refuses to refute. His image is a.) something people look up to, admire, or want to watch and b.) reflective of him, TeamLiquid, and all the according sponsors. That is what happens when you are someone with at least some importance. I am sorely disappointed that he didn't realize this and approach this situation much better, and I know that I am not alone. Something like this reflects badly upon his professional team and that is why it is subject to more scrutiny. If it didn't effect others then yes it wouldn't be an issue. But he is a representative of a brand and therefore yes I am influenced by this. I know that I am much less likely to want to watch his games for at least the short term simply because I wouldn't like the player. 1: Yes, famous people have been victims of paparazzis and lack of privacy for years. But isn't this pretty fucking horrible? I mean, in some instances you have dumb celebrities who want fame for the sake of being famous - and in that case they did give up their privacy. But for most celebrities, they are celebrities through being exceptionally good at something - and the fame and thus lack of privacy is something of a negative, unintended consequence. In fact, you might say that this sort of, gossipy behaviour, is in fact discouraging exceptionalism. And that, to me, is bad. 2: Just because something is good business, does not mean it should be encouraged. Weapons, prostitution and drugs make up three of the biggest industries in the world. While at least two out of these three might give you entertainment, I think we can largely agree that they contribute more bad than good. 3: The reason why you cannot be judgemental is that you are judging based on incomplete information. So far you have heard the story of one disgruntled part whom is obviously really biased, one part has not posted anything, and the third part has posted that not everything posted is true, but that he feels this is within his private sphere and that it is none of your concern. That should end it - it's none of your concern. Ret is a sc2 player, judge him based on that. I think there's a difference between europe and usa in this aspect though, you have far more people who are famous for being famous, and with the exception of england, the right to privacy is far more respected in europe - unless someone's private actions are actually in direct conflict with their public persona, then I don't see how it matters at all. Going forward however there are lessons to be learned. Forging e-sports into something that is actually respected though means that we really do need to avoid situations like this, for both the sport and the players. For the sport this just reflects badly. Yes it happens in established sports, but what kind of image do people get of e-sports when they hear of players acting like this? For Ret himself it even does have consequences. It's extremely unlikely but if he is in a close position with another player to get invited to a tournament couldn't the tournament sponsors decide to go with someone else to avoid a negative incident associated with the sponsors? LMAO once again the "For the future of e-sports we just can't let this happen!" nonsense. Get a clue. Amen. Seriously, the "E-Sports" card is getting old.
I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic but how the FUCK DO YOU HAVE 1100 posts in one week my god.
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On June 09 2011 09:53 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:38 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 08:03 BandonBanshee wrote:On June 09 2011 07:08 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 07:02 ptbl wrote:
I think Ret, Catz, and the girl is in the wrong. I feel sorry for the dude who got cheated on. As Ret said, there are two sides to a story, but when you have 10+witnesses from MLG confirming the cheated dude's story... +1... I was a fan of ret since BW but this is a bit too much... On June 09 2011 07:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Heh so many lies. In my skype conversation with you you messaged me from her skype after you got into her house I had just found out that you posted on reddit. I didn't know I was doing something so terrible I thought you guys broke up on friday, which technically you did! but I have also heard about some fucked up shit you did. You seem to be enjoying the attention thought but this is really none of anyones business its only between the people involved so I don't want to go and explain myself here on a forum. If you've done nothing wrong then why not explain yourself? You owe it to your fans... He doesn't owe shit to anyone. I'm going to have to disagree
Without fans, a pro is nothing
Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today
It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fansAt the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans... Being good at the game = gets you more fans Winning championships = gets you more fans Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in.
They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans...The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are todayAm I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers. I bolded everything that didn't make sense in your post. For starters, how you think pros need fans to be what they are is beyond comprehension. Edit: I edited leniency because some things do make sense in the end.
Okay, I'll go through it line by line then
Without fans, a pro is nothing <- main argument
Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today
<- By disagreeing with these statement, you're suggesting that fans are a complete nonfactor in a pro's success. I've avoided giving specific examples of people that have become successful purely through fans because I don't like naming specific people in public. PM me and I will give you a list. I can also give you a list of people who have not been successful because of the lack of fans but are skilled enough.
It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fans
<- Pros need to make livings. In order to make a living, you need a sponsor/team. What are sponsors looking for? Someone with a large fan following to promote their products. There are reasons why unknown people are not sponsored by big names. It's not a concrete rule but there's a huge correlation between fanbase and sponsorships.
Big example here: Boxer. Is he as good as MVP/MC? Nope. But he gets a private sponsor because of his fanbase. [Yes I realize I named a specific example]
At the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans...
Being good at the game = gets you more fans
Winning championships = gets you more fans
Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in.
<- Well, you said these lines make sense so I'll skip it.
They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans...
<- Again, see boxer example.
The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are today
<- This is an opinion, I can see how you would not be able to see it my way.
Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers.
<- I'm not sure what you're saying "doesn't make sense" so I'll discuss both parts of this one
Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation.
<- This doesn't make sense? So he has to answer to the situation? Bolding this makes me feel like you just skimmed and didn't really think about what I wrote.
But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers.
<-Are you saying it's not hard on the fans to see one of their favorite players potentially in this light?
You realize that saying "this doesn't make sense" and not pointing out any logical fallacies is not debating or proving anything at all?
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On June 09 2011 10:09 Zlasher wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 08:12 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 09 2011 08:09 Rekrul wrote:On June 09 2011 08:01 Lunares wrote:On June 09 2011 07:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 09 2011 07:32 Lunares wrote:On June 09 2011 07:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Oh come on guys, some of you must have been blinded by years of media bs giving you a feeling of fucking entitlement. Ret doesn't owe any of you an explanation, because this entire issue is wholly irrelevant to everyone but three or four people. I can understand that this is a funny story and that it produces some entertainment value, but how are any of you influenced by this? You don't know what girl in question and ret talked about in private. you don't know what ex boyfriend and girl in question talked about in private. you don't know what ret's perception of girl in question and ex boyfriend's relationship status was. ret is by no means obliged to tell you either - his status as a professional starcraft two gamer does not mean that every aspect of his private life is up to scrutiny. enjoy the show if you want, but with the exception of ex-boyfriend, none of you have the right to be judgemental. You can't really say that his private life should be staying private. "Famous" people (obviously I am using that term loosely as no SC2 player is really "famous" in north america) do not have the same expectation of privacy, at least in NA, as do the everyday person. There are no laws or anything regarding the matter. The fact is that when you have many people who are your fans, or look up to you, then your personal behavior is subject to more scrutiny simply because you have more people watching what you do. The same is true for any sports star or actor, anything "personal" they do that reflects badly upon them is quite often found out by paparazzi and sold. Gossip, drama, etc is a good business. Ret is by no means obliged to tell us anything but we absolutely have the right to be judgemental, especially if we are only given one side of a story that paints ret in a bad light that he refuses to refute. His image is a.) something people look up to, admire, or want to watch and b.) reflective of him, TeamLiquid, and all the according sponsors. That is what happens when you are someone with at least some importance. I am sorely disappointed that he didn't realize this and approach this situation much better, and I know that I am not alone. Something like this reflects badly upon his professional team and that is why it is subject to more scrutiny. If it didn't effect others then yes it wouldn't be an issue. But he is a representative of a brand and therefore yes I am influenced by this. I know that I am much less likely to want to watch his games for at least the short term simply because I wouldn't like the player. 1: Yes, famous people have been victims of paparazzis and lack of privacy for years. But isn't this pretty fucking horrible? I mean, in some instances you have dumb celebrities who want fame for the sake of being famous - and in that case they did give up their privacy. But for most celebrities, they are celebrities through being exceptionally good at something - and the fame and thus lack of privacy is something of a negative, unintended consequence. In fact, you might say that this sort of, gossipy behaviour, is in fact discouraging exceptionalism. And that, to me, is bad. 2: Just because something is good business, does not mean it should be encouraged. Weapons, prostitution and drugs make up three of the biggest industries in the world. While at least two out of these three might give you entertainment, I think we can largely agree that they contribute more bad than good. 3: The reason why you cannot be judgemental is that you are judging based on incomplete information. So far you have heard the story of one disgruntled part whom is obviously really biased, one part has not posted anything, and the third part has posted that not everything posted is true, but that he feels this is within his private sphere and that it is none of your concern. That should end it - it's none of your concern. Ret is a sc2 player, judge him based on that. I think there's a difference between europe and usa in this aspect though, you have far more people who are famous for being famous, and with the exception of england, the right to privacy is far more respected in europe - unless someone's private actions are actually in direct conflict with their public persona, then I don't see how it matters at all. Going forward however there are lessons to be learned. Forging e-sports into something that is actually respected though means that we really do need to avoid situations like this, for both the sport and the players. For the sport this just reflects badly. Yes it happens in established sports, but what kind of image do people get of e-sports when they hear of players acting like this? For Ret himself it even does have consequences. It's extremely unlikely but if he is in a close position with another player to get invited to a tournament couldn't the tournament sponsors decide to go with someone else to avoid a negative incident associated with the sponsors? LMAO once again the "For the future of e-sports we just can't let this happen!" nonsense. Get a clue. Amen. Seriously, the "E-Sports" card is getting old. I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic but how the FUCK DO YOU HAVE 1100 posts in one week my god.
Don't worry, I've been meaning to ask the same thing. I saw him at 5200 posts sometime during the MLG LR thread and noticed his post count earlier today and went "wtf".
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definitely alot of hos at mlg, seriously
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United States2159 Posts
On June 09 2011 10:10 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:53 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 09 2011 09:38 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 08:03 BandonBanshee wrote:On June 09 2011 07:08 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 07:02 ptbl wrote:
I think Ret, Catz, and the girl is in the wrong. I feel sorry for the dude who got cheated on. As Ret said, there are two sides to a story, but when you have 10+witnesses from MLG confirming the cheated dude's story... +1... I was a fan of ret since BW but this is a bit too much... On June 09 2011 07:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Heh so many lies. In my skype conversation with you you messaged me from her skype after you got into her house I had just found out that you posted on reddit. I didn't know I was doing something so terrible I thought you guys broke up on friday, which technically you did! but I have also heard about some fucked up shit you did. You seem to be enjoying the attention thought but this is really none of anyones business its only between the people involved so I don't want to go and explain myself here on a forum. If you've done nothing wrong then why not explain yourself? You owe it to your fans... He doesn't owe shit to anyone. I'm going to have to disagree
Without fans, a pro is nothing
Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today
It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fansAt the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans... Being good at the game = gets you more fans Winning championships = gets you more fans Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in.
They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans...The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are todayAm I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers. I bolded everything that didn't make sense in your post. For starters, how you think pros need fans to be what they are is beyond comprehension. Edit: I edited leniency because some things do make sense in the end. + Show Spoiler +
Okay, I'll go through it line by line then
Without fans, a pro is nothing <- main argument
Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today
<- By disagreeing with these statement, you're suggesting that fans are a complete nonfactor in a pro's success. I've avoided giving specific examples of people that have become successful purely through fans because I don't like naming specific people in public. PM me and I will give you a list. I can also give you a list of people who have not been successful because of the lack of fans but are skilled enough.
It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fans
<- Pros need to make livings. In order to make a living, you need a sponsor/team. What are sponsors looking for? Someone with a large fan following to promote their products. There are reasons why unknown people are not sponsored by big names. It's not a concrete rule but there's a huge correlation between fanbase and sponsorships.
Big example here: Boxer. Is he as good as MVP/MC? Nope. But he gets a private sponsor because of his fanbase. [Yes I realize I named a specific example]
At the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans...
Being good at the game = gets you more fans
Winning championships = gets you more fans
Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in.
<- Well, you said these lines make sense so I'll skip it.
They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans...
<- Again, see boxer example.
The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are today
<- This is an opinion, I can see how you would not be able to see it my way.
Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers.
<- I'm not sure what you're saying "doesn't make sense" so I'll discuss both parts of this one
Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation.
<- This doesn't make sense? So he has to answer to the situation? Bolding this makes me feel like you just skimmed and didn't really think about what I wrote.
But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers.
<-Are you saying it's not hard on the fans to see one of their favorite players potentially in this light?
You realize that saying "this doesn't make sense" and not pointing out any logical fallacies is not debating or proving anything at all?
You care way too much about this.
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On June 09 2011 10:11 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 10:09 Zlasher wrote:On June 09 2011 08:12 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 09 2011 08:09 Rekrul wrote:On June 09 2011 08:01 Lunares wrote:On June 09 2011 07:48 Liquid`Drone wrote:On June 09 2011 07:32 Lunares wrote:On June 09 2011 07:17 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Oh come on guys, some of you must have been blinded by years of media bs giving you a feeling of fucking entitlement. Ret doesn't owe any of you an explanation, because this entire issue is wholly irrelevant to everyone but three or four people. I can understand that this is a funny story and that it produces some entertainment value, but how are any of you influenced by this? You don't know what girl in question and ret talked about in private. you don't know what ex boyfriend and girl in question talked about in private. you don't know what ret's perception of girl in question and ex boyfriend's relationship status was. ret is by no means obliged to tell you either - his status as a professional starcraft two gamer does not mean that every aspect of his private life is up to scrutiny. enjoy the show if you want, but with the exception of ex-boyfriend, none of you have the right to be judgemental. You can't really say that his private life should be staying private. "Famous" people (obviously I am using that term loosely as no SC2 player is really "famous" in north america) do not have the same expectation of privacy, at least in NA, as do the everyday person. There are no laws or anything regarding the matter. The fact is that when you have many people who are your fans, or look up to you, then your personal behavior is subject to more scrutiny simply because you have more people watching what you do. The same is true for any sports star or actor, anything "personal" they do that reflects badly upon them is quite often found out by paparazzi and sold. Gossip, drama, etc is a good business. Ret is by no means obliged to tell us anything but we absolutely have the right to be judgemental, especially if we are only given one side of a story that paints ret in a bad light that he refuses to refute. His image is a.) something people look up to, admire, or want to watch and b.) reflective of him, TeamLiquid, and all the according sponsors. That is what happens when you are someone with at least some importance. I am sorely disappointed that he didn't realize this and approach this situation much better, and I know that I am not alone. Something like this reflects badly upon his professional team and that is why it is subject to more scrutiny. If it didn't effect others then yes it wouldn't be an issue. But he is a representative of a brand and therefore yes I am influenced by this. I know that I am much less likely to want to watch his games for at least the short term simply because I wouldn't like the player. 1: Yes, famous people have been victims of paparazzis and lack of privacy for years. But isn't this pretty fucking horrible? I mean, in some instances you have dumb celebrities who want fame for the sake of being famous - and in that case they did give up their privacy. But for most celebrities, they are celebrities through being exceptionally good at something - and the fame and thus lack of privacy is something of a negative, unintended consequence. In fact, you might say that this sort of, gossipy behaviour, is in fact discouraging exceptionalism. And that, to me, is bad. 2: Just because something is good business, does not mean it should be encouraged. Weapons, prostitution and drugs make up three of the biggest industries in the world. While at least two out of these three might give you entertainment, I think we can largely agree that they contribute more bad than good. 3: The reason why you cannot be judgemental is that you are judging based on incomplete information. So far you have heard the story of one disgruntled part whom is obviously really biased, one part has not posted anything, and the third part has posted that not everything posted is true, but that he feels this is within his private sphere and that it is none of your concern. That should end it - it's none of your concern. Ret is a sc2 player, judge him based on that. I think there's a difference between europe and usa in this aspect though, you have far more people who are famous for being famous, and with the exception of england, the right to privacy is far more respected in europe - unless someone's private actions are actually in direct conflict with their public persona, then I don't see how it matters at all. Going forward however there are lessons to be learned. Forging e-sports into something that is actually respected though means that we really do need to avoid situations like this, for both the sport and the players. For the sport this just reflects badly. Yes it happens in established sports, but what kind of image do people get of e-sports when they hear of players acting like this? For Ret himself it even does have consequences. It's extremely unlikely but if he is in a close position with another player to get invited to a tournament couldn't the tournament sponsors decide to go with someone else to avoid a negative incident associated with the sponsors? LMAO once again the "For the future of e-sports we just can't let this happen!" nonsense. Get a clue. Amen. Seriously, the "E-Sports" card is getting old. I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic but how the FUCK DO YOU HAVE 1100 posts in one week my god. Don't worry, I've been meaning to ask the same thing. I saw him at 5200 posts sometime during the MLG LR thread and noticed his post count earlier today and went "wtf".
I've seen Torte De Lini with like 2k posts just months ago, is this guy on drugs or something? He posts like 200 times PER DAY
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Calgary25954 Posts
On June 09 2011 09:39 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:38 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 08:03 BandonBanshee wrote:On June 09 2011 07:08 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 07:02 ptbl wrote:
I think Ret, Catz, and the girl is in the wrong. I feel sorry for the dude who got cheated on. As Ret said, there are two sides to a story, but when you have 10+witnesses from MLG confirming the cheated dude's story... +1... I was a fan of ret since BW but this is a bit too much... On June 09 2011 07:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Heh so many lies. In my skype conversation with you you messaged me from her skype after you got into her house I had just found out that you posted on reddit. I didn't know I was doing something so terrible I thought you guys broke up on friday, which technically you did! but I have also heard about some fucked up shit you did. You seem to be enjoying the attention thought but this is really none of anyones business its only between the people involved so I don't want to go and explain myself here on a forum. If you've done nothing wrong then why not explain yourself? You owe it to your fans... He doesn't owe shit to anyone. I'm going to have to disagree Without fans, a pro is nothing Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fans At the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans... Being good at the game = gets you more fans Winning championships = gets you more fans Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in. They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans... The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are today Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers. can someone close this thread now plz my head is going to explode
Without a head, there is nothing to live for.
Without threads, you wouldn't be ahead.
Ha ha!
-_-
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On June 09 2011 08:34 Vansetsu wrote:
Can you remember the first MLG's that included SC2? I sure do. I can remember watching Incontrol sitting on the floor with a pillow amongst a crowd of 100~ people watching TT1-play Jinro on something pretty close to a standard sized LAN table. Now we have have an event with two decent streams and live attendees reaching +2000 people.
Pretty sure Jinro wasn't at the first MLG that included SC2?
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Jos is a moron for going with a girl, and buying a plane ticket, he knows for maybe... What? ONE week? Maybe less? Every guy knows it when a girl is after your money whatever you want to call it. and I deriously doubt that she is going to be with you because she loves you so much. There is nothing wrong with a bit of casual flirting and getting laid, but shit Jos, aren't you taking this way too serious? Is it that cliché 'Love at first sight' shit? Pfrt.. I'm shocked to be Honest.
On the other hand: if it's Really cool between you two, which I doubt, I wish you all the best. But remember: she has a nice record of shit she has pulled off. Imo she is just a borderliner.
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I am dying here at the "don't hook up for the good of ESPORTS" argument. Wow, hahaha. TL needs a smiley with aviators and the ESPORTS tshirt on. Get on that Kennigit.
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Calgary25954 Posts
On June 09 2011 10:10 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 09:53 Torte de Lini wrote:On June 09 2011 09:38 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 08:03 BandonBanshee wrote:On June 09 2011 07:08 frogmelter wrote:On June 09 2011 07:02 ptbl wrote:
I think Ret, Catz, and the girl is in the wrong. I feel sorry for the dude who got cheated on. As Ret said, there are two sides to a story, but when you have 10+witnesses from MLG confirming the cheated dude's story... +1... I was a fan of ret since BW but this is a bit too much... On June 09 2011 07:00 Liquid`Ret wrote:
Heh so many lies. In my skype conversation with you you messaged me from her skype after you got into her house I had just found out that you posted on reddit. I didn't know I was doing something so terrible I thought you guys broke up on friday, which technically you did! but I have also heard about some fucked up shit you did. You seem to be enjoying the attention thought but this is really none of anyones business its only between the people involved so I don't want to go and explain myself here on a forum. If you've done nothing wrong then why not explain yourself? You owe it to your fans... He doesn't owe shit to anyone. I'm going to have to disagree
Without fans, a pro is nothing
Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today
It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fansAt the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans... Being good at the game = gets you more fans Winning championships = gets you more fans Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in.
They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans...The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are todayAm I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers. I bolded everything that didn't make sense in your post. For starters, how you think pros need fans to be what they are is beyond comprehension. Edit: I edited leniency because some things do make sense in the end. Okay, I'll go through it line by line then Without fans, a pro is nothing <- main argument Without fans, there is not a pro that would be where they are today <- By disagreeing with these statement, you're suggesting that fans are a complete nonfactor in a pro's success. I've avoided giving specific examples of people that have become successful purely through fans because I don't like naming specific people in public. PM me and I will give you a list. I can also give you a list of people who have not been successful because of the lack of fans but are skilled enough. It could be argued that pros owe EVERYTHING to fans <- Pros need to make livings. In order to make a living, you need a sponsor/team. What are sponsors looking for? Someone with a large fan following to promote their products. There are reasons why unknown people are not sponsored by big names. It's not a concrete rule but there's a huge correlation between fanbase and sponsorships. Big example here: Boxer. Is he as good as MVP/MC? Nope. But he gets a private sponsor because of his fanbase. [Yes I realize I named a specific example] At the end of the day, it basically comes down to the fans... Being good at the game = gets you more fans Winning championships = gets you more fans Why do teams sponsor players? So they preform well and promote their products to their fans and fans of whatever the player is participating in. <- Well, you said these lines make sense so I'll skip it. They are tons of people that are better than some low tier pros but just don't have a large fan base. Why is it that the popular players get teams/sponsorships even though they aren't as skilled as some other people? The fans... <- Again, see boxer example. The "oh they don't owe you shit" attitude is the attitude that people take when they take fame for granted and forget that the fans got them where they are today <- This is an opinion, I can see how you would not be able to see it my way. Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers. <- I'm not sure what you're saying "doesn't make sense" so I'll discuss both parts of this one Am I saying that he has to answer every single little question we have? Of course not. It's fully within his rights to refuse to elucidate the situation. <- This doesn't make sense? So he has to answer to the situation? Bolding this makes me feel like you just skimmed and didn't really think about what I wrote. But he's putting his fans in a difficult position when one party presents some hard evidence [skype conversation+eye witnesses is pretty incriminating] and he answers with vague answers. <-Are you saying it's not hard on the fans to see one of their favorite players potentially in this light? You realize that saying "this doesn't make sense" and not pointing out any logical fallacies is not debating or proving anything at all?
Right, so the conclusion is that progamers get everything from fans but don't owe them anything. Great, we agree.
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EPT
