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Time for more bitching from Jerm!
I played a good bit of ladder this weekend. Had some breakthroughs in my ZvT game. Life is good.
Then, toward the end of the night last night, I hit the wall...
ZvT, but here's the twist: Close position on Metalopolis. Close position on Shattered Temple. Top vs Bottom on Typhon Peaks. Of course I get bunker rushed on the first two and the Terran goes through the rocks on the 3rd.
The third game is what got me. Didn't they just remove this bullshit off Shakuras Plateau and they have to add a whole new map in where Terran can do the same exact thing? And why the hell can't Blizzard get with the program? Every respectable tournament has removed close positions on Metalopolis and Shattered Temple if not removed the maps completely.
Come to think of it, if a Terran opens with a 2 rax bunker rush on close position Shattered Temple or Metalopolis, it's basically a guaranteed win. Even if I hold off the early push, my economy will continue to be crippled the entire game as his natural is about 2 hops from mine, so the follow up Tank push STARTS right around the corner. AND THIS SHIT HAPPENS 33% OF THE TIME!!!
Then Typhon, which I don't much mind otherwise, has that shitty rock-alley bullshit that we JUST had removed from another good map, and I'm supposed to just sit here and act like nothing is wrong?
That's not even talking about the 3 maps I have down-voted because they're basically retarded: Delta Quadrant, Backwater Gulch, and the completely retarded Slag Pits.
Who the fuck comes up with this shit? Do they not play-test these maps before they put them on the ladder? Do they think Terrans need a 15% boost to ladder points due to these terrible features on so many maps that I can't even downvote them all?
Then there's that... the downvoting. I don't WANT to downvote Metalopolis and Shattered Temple. These are good maps, but drawing a Terran in close position is pretty much a gg right there.
I'm really tired of stupidly close positions and the fact that I have to deal with them due to Blizzards incompetence. Bunker rushes are fine, I'm not complaining about them in general. But when it takes the Marines 15 seconds to walk from their Barracks to the Bunker that started building before my first Zerglings spawned, theres something wrong with that.
Remove the bullshit starting positions. Stop taxing Zerg ladder points and inflating Terran ladder points. It's insulting to everybody involved.
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Getting ZvT on close positions is frustrating , But I guess blizzard has their reasons for not removing close spawn...
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The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier.
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On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier.
So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT!
Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself!
Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard?
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I am a T and Z user, and everytime I play a TvZ with close positions on Temple or Metalopolis, I feel bad. 
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I agree with you, my (terran) win percentage on certain ladder maps are ridiculous. Even cross position on Slag TvZ is hard for Z I think, if T plays conservative and grabs the gold fast. Then Zerg's third is just a hop and skip away from my gold, and it's so easy to drop the fourth. Scrap station is even worse for Z imo, because my third is insanely close to the Z's third, it's so easy to win once I have my third up.
On a side note, this is why I think terrans do so well in ladder rankings, because of TvZ map imbalance (and why zergs are underrepresented in ladder rankings), whereas TvP is generally the same regardless of the map and map position due to warpgate (except maybe backwater, where tanks are ridiculously strong).
In general, they need to have maps where Z's can take a third that's far enough away from T's third, and not have close ground army position, even if there are rocks (cuz they obviously do nothing for the mid game push).
ORRRR....give zerg's lurkers, take away creep speed, and give hydras speed upgrade. I think that would make ZvT a lot more stable... might require nerfing hive tech a little though, since broodlord/infestor is so ridiculously strong.
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On May 16 2011 23:58 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier. So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT! Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself! Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard?
It's because Blizzard doesn't want to eliminate close position cheese, a new expansion is coming out soon, new units will be coming out, and they want to see the effect of close position by reviewing the stats.
It's horrible for Zerg for close positions, but not impossible.
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On May 17 2011 00:06 Greatness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:58 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier. So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT! Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself! Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard? It's because Blizzard doesn't want to eliminate close position cheese, a new expansion is coming out soon, new units will be coming out, and they want to see the effect of close position by reviewing the stats.
How the fuck do you know that?
And "they want to see the effect of close position by reviewing the stats"? really? Haven't they seen the effect for the last year? The effect is that Zerg LOSES. That hasn't changed and isn't going to change.
You sound like a biased Terran making excuses.
It's horrible for Zerg for close positions, but not impossible.
No one said it was impossible. What's your point?
When something is horrible but not impossible, that's imbalance.
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On May 17 2011 00:09 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 00:06 Greatness wrote:On May 16 2011 23:58 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier. So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT! Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself! Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard? It's because Blizzard doesn't want to eliminate close position cheese, a new expansion is coming out soon, new units will be coming out, and they want to see the effect of close position by reviewing the stats. How the fuck do you know that? And "they want to see the effect of close position by reviewing the stats"? really? Haven't they seen the effect for the last year? The effect is that Zerg LOSES. That hasn't changed and isn't going to change. You sound like a biased Terran making excuses.
No, I'm a mid-masters zerg lol, have played Zerg since game came out/a bit previously in beta as well.
I know that, because I saw Blizzcon, they were talking how they balance by looking at the stats. New units are coming out, so the metagame might change, no point in removing something that isn't used in tournaments, but only in ladder anyway. Ladder isn't that serious anyway, it's just practice.
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Doesn't the first overlord, if headed to close pos, will be there just in time at about 15 food to decide between gazpool or hatch first ?
Your post made me not being sure anymore because I don't play zerg often.
edit : on metal, close air is nearly same as close pos, a little more "safe" (a little less unsafe is a better way to say it), I guess on this map a gazpool opening is the only way to go. If you end up cross pos, you won't lose much if you just don't make lings.
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Doesn't the first overlord, if headed to close pos, will be there just in time at about 15 food to decide between gazpool or hatch first ?
Your post made me not being sure anymore because I don't play zerg often.
I agree if you use your first overlord on most maps you can see if they are close air , But sadly that doesnt work on maps like shattered temple , But on those maps I tend to send a 10ish scout 
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signed.
its time for blizzard to move on and eliminate close position. its kind of ridiculous that all prestigious tournaments have eliminated this either by altering the map positions, or by removing the maps completely and introducing new ones, yet we have to play and whine like we did since beta...
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On May 17 2011 01:19 MyNameIsAlex wrote:
signed.
its time for blizzard to move on and eliminate close position. its kind of ridiculous that all prestigious tournaments have eliminated this either by altering the map positions, or by removing the maps completely and introducing new ones, yet we have to play and whine like we did since beta...
All i see are tournament organizers being little bitchs. Make new maps for that league or leave them the way they are, don't edit them because that basically negates the argument for different maps for each league and the "required practice times" for each. All i ever see is people complaining about the maps (blah this map is so imba xvx because of some stupid reason)
On May 16 2011 23:58 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier. So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT! Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself! Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard?
Also what league are you homie? Based on your crappy explanation of zerg economics I'd safely say you're not the brightest bulb in the bunch.....being behind 1 drone for vital scouting information IS WHAT ALL THE OTHER RACES HAVE TO DO, ZERG IS NOT SPECIAL, YOU ARE NOT A BEAUTIFUL AND UNIQUE SNOWFLAKE, YOU ARE THE SAME DECOMPOSING MATTER AS THE REST OF US!!!!!!!!
Especially when you 9 ovie->12 drone(you'll have time to either make 2 more drones and gas/pool or make 2 more and 14 hatch if they are FEing....herpa derp)
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I want to see really cool maps, like playing a in baals throne room in d2 but it would be a SC2 map. O_O
I need this!
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Unfortunatly Blizzard hasn't taken anything from BroodWar where fresh innovative and solid maps were made by the kespa mappers all the time. I also find it very confusing because that pattern of terrible maps already got critiziced harshly in the beta and even more after release.
There's imo no reasonable explenation why they wouldn't give in more to the community. There are tons of people that make better and more balanced maps than Blizzard which proofs that it's not really that hard.
If you want to see for yourself just take a look at the Custom Maps forum on TL.
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On May 16 2011 23:58 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier. So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT! Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself! Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard?
Your initial overlord should be able to scout close air before the 14th drone if I'm not mistaken. So you have a 50/50 chance of close when you decide pool or hatch first. Pick the one where if you guess wrong you'll have the best chance of finding your way back in the game. For most people its pool first.
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On May 16 2011 23:58 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier. So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT! Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself! Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard?
Here's the thing, that this is both helpful and depressing at the same time:
So you know there's a 50% chance you're in close positions without scouting (due to OL scout), if you're in close positions and you go pool first you're still ridiculously far behind so you might as well go hatch first, hope you actually have a chance of an advantage if they mess up their attack. If you go pool first, unless you build 12 lings AND they move out with a bunch of marines, you're going to be behind all game.
If you 9-drone scout on metal, you'll ruin your economy for cross positions. And to the idiot who said that it's the same as other races, first of all, 9 drone scout is EARLIER than other race's scouts, and secondly, the purpose of scouting right after 9-pylon as protoss is mostly for early pool builds, but this is just a positional scout. Every standard terran build is good in close positions TvZ. Also, I know of no terrans that 9 scv scout, that's ridiculously early given you could just wall-in instead.
Also, I think you assessment of Typhon is wrong, the back rocks push is bad, but even if you're close horizontal it's a pretty bad map because the passageways are so narrow near the bases that you can't get good flanks anywhere except the very center.
My own problem with blizzard maps:
Bottom of the ramp wall-in:
And this isn't even because of bunkers, which are also kind of bullshit, but because even with a very early drone, they can deny 100% of drone scouting very early at no information. You can wall at the top of the ramp to block a 15 drone scout, but only if you build a second depot which means either a) they aren't 2-raxing or b) it's a slower 2-rax, this is actually game breaking in close positions because you're literally flipping a coin where even if you flip right, you don't win, you're just less behind because it's close positions metal and if you flip wrong you lose outright.
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Maybe you shouldn't hatch first vs T in close position 15g/15p is an econ speedling build allowing you to pump drones and hatch relatively early (as early as 17-18) if only two drones on gas. It's just a thought.
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On May 16 2011 23:58 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier. So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT! Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself! Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard?
Wow, how about you go cry some more. Protoss fast nexus dies 9/10 to roach rushes (or hydra drops), 3 gate dies to roach ling attacks, and the naturals on every single map are anywhere from somewhat difficult ---> flatoutlol to wall off quickly.
Also, pool first isn't even a bad build, look at goddamn morrow for christs sake.
User was warned for this post
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On May 17 2011 07:41 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:58 Jermstuddog wrote:On May 16 2011 23:52 Greatness wrote:
The maps are 100x better than they were when the game came out....Close positions? Go pool first, or scout earlier. So now Zerg has to scout with his 9th drone on Metal/Shattered every time he draws Terran all so that he can realize that it is in fact close position and cripple his economy pre-emptively by not expanding, BRILLIANT! Not to mention that he should be setting himselves 1 drone further behind for that other 66% of the time that it's cross-pos and every drone counts because now the Terran is free to get a FE himself! Unfortunately there is no way of knowing it's close-pos and adjusting your build accordingly until it's too late. Every tournament organizer has realized this, why can't Blizzard? Wow, how about you go cry some more. Protoss fast nexus dies 9/10 to roach rushes (or hydra drops), 3 gate dies to roach ling attacks, and the naturals on every single map are anywhere from somewhat difficult ---> flatoutlol to wall off quickly. Also, pool first isn't even a bad build, look at goddamn morrow for christs sake.
ZvT and ZvP are very different beasts. What exactly do roach rushes, 3 gate expos, and nexus first builds have to do with ZvT?
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EPT
