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Lately I was listening to the most recent State of the Game episode 38 and there was an in depth discussion of the MLG-GSL exchange program. The hosts generally agreed to an interesting side point which I think deserves more discussion. Basically it was agreed that non-koreans already watch the GSL and they do it to see Koreans.
I just feel like a lot of the media at least that I have been listening to has this bias that GSL is the best and so everyone watches it. This just isn't simply the case at least for me, personally I don't give a shit about the GSL. When it was the only league out there than I was interested but it is just full of players I could care less about because there is no personality and I don't watch their streams on a regular basis. GSL is often said to have the best players but I personally don't think that is the end all be all. Also taken for granted is that they have the best production but the fact is often you have to hear the casters bullshit forever if you are watching it live before you get to the next game. All I am saying is that there seems to be this myopic view of GSL as the ultimate league but personally as a spectator it has got to be at the bottom of my list when compared to IPL, NASL, and TSL.
Does anyone else prefer other leagues or think that watching their favorite player is more important than watching the 'best' competition? I am just wondering if there are others out here who feel the same way that there is more to just being a spectator than the forgone conclusion that the Koreans are the best and therefore the best to watch.
 
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GSL is good, but if you ask me, I like that and the IGN Pro Leagues. 
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I watch a lot of the GSL games, but if there is a foreigner playing in it, I pretty much stay up to watch the game live 90% of the time.
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i don't care about watching weak games because x guy is nice and i can relate to his social background, this is sports, i want to see the best going at it if i'm gonna waste my time.
plus, the GSL has the best production value of all major tournaments, and having the biggest competition and rivalries, it provides the most drama, which translates to fun.
and there's plenty of personality with the koreans, it's not like BW, these people are mostly chilled out, trash talk, have ceremonies, give interviews to foreign sites, let artosis visit them with a camera, shit like that.
not to mention you need to have reasons for a player to be your favorite, i can understand having tlo or spanishiwa for creativity, or tyler or incontrol for their awesome personalities because they're oldschool, but outside the likes of idra, why would i care for a player who plays standard and may be good by western standards but can't really be compared to the very top tier. i mean, i will enjoy following several, but they're not gonna be my focus for the time i spend watching sc2, there's no reason they should be.
IPL and NASL ? waste of time, you get maybe 2-3 games worth watching per day of broadcast, and even those are subpar compared to the level of most GSL matches. that the koreans are better isn't a foregone conclusion, it's a conclusion that stands true based on trial and error and any objective approach you can bring to the level of play.
it is everyone's right to watch whatever they like, some like socke's long hair more than MC's dropjaw micro, or thorzain's sad face more than MVP's perfect positional play and macro, it's all good.
-edited spelling-
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the Dagon Knight4004 Posts
I watch the GSL largely for the casters and the fact that, now that I've started to get a handle on who's who, the players are starting to flesh out a bit and develop a bit of personality in my mind.
That said, I watch it with the girlfriend, who has no idea about SC2 at all, but who just loves hearing Artosis and Tasteless banter. So far, nobody else has managed to inspire that.
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While I'm sure there's plenty of people who watch it for the Koreans, personally I only really watch it for the foreigners (Huk/Jinro fighting!) and the awesome casting. Other than that however, I don't really have more interest in the Koreans than I would any other player, and the GSL is on so late that it's insensible for me to stay up for it most of the time.
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On May 16 2011 16:46 anatem wrote:
i don't care about watching weak games because x guy is nice and i can relate to his social background, this is sports, i want to see the best going at it if i'm gonna waste my time.
plus, the GSL has the best production value of all major tournaments, and having the biggest competition and rivalries, it provides the most drama, which translates to fun.
and there's plenty of personality with the koreans, it's not like BW, these people are mostly chilled out, trash talk, have ceremonies, give interviews to foreign sites, let artosis visit them with a camera, shit like that.
not to mention you need to have reasons for a player to be your favorite, i can understand having tlo or spanishiwa for creativity, or tyler or incontrol for their awesome personalities because they're oldschool, but outside the likes of idra, why would i care for a player who plays standard and may be good by western standards but can't really be compared to the very top tier. i mean, i will enjoy following several, but they're not gonna be my focus for the time i spend watching sc2, there's no reason they should be.
IPL and NASL ? waste of time, you get maybe 2-3 games worth watching per day of broadcast, and even those are subpar compared to the level of most GSL matches. that the koreans are better isn't a foregone conclusion, it's a conclusion that stands true based on trial and error and any objective approach you can bring to the level of play.
it is everyone's right to watch whatever they like, some like socke's long hair more than MC's dropjaw micro, or thorzain's sad face more than MVP's perfect positional play and macro, it's all good.
-edited spelling-
I guess if you are watching nothing but the league an reading articles then you can get some opinion but I have access to Incontrol, Tyler, and Idra for almost 2 hours every week just through state of the game. I care way more to watch them compete than a bunch of random dudes I only get to see play in a league. I am not saying the GSL is bad but seriously I just don't get to watch anything outside the tournament of any of the players. This means that the only way to get into the league is to watch the league unless you have a specific player you want to watch.
Also to me I don't see this huge gap in play between the tournaments, are you really going to tell me that the TSL wasn't full of epic series. I mean after that GSL 4-0 stomp........
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It's a habit that's carried on from Broodwar. People watched Koreans back then because they were the best, and the Korean scene was the the only "professional" scene.
It's the same thing in SC2. People assumed Koreans were the best (they still are, but the gap's not as large), so GSL generated a lot of hype. Because of this, people view the GSL and the Korean scene as the benchmark for gauging absolute skill or whatever you want to call it. It's always going to be like this unless the West steps up, or the Koreans get progressively worse, which I doubt will happen.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Because the GSL has production quality way beyond anything in the Sc2 E-sport scene.
Live players(you can see them playing)
Live booths
Live audience
Live casters
Kpop introductions, music, pyrotechnics, lighting
Aside from that Koreans in general are on a much higher level, Idra even stated that he feels there is little competition for him in NA since he got back afaik.
On top of that the trend carried on from the BW days.
The NASL's/IPL production qualities are not even near the GSL, as for the TSL, their production quality is also not even near the GSL but it is a community driven event from Teamliquid, hence its usual that you get a biased opinion of it and that you feel an attachment to it(its only natural).
You may call the Koreans no-names, but so are many for me, I only know Idra and perhaps Thorzain and Naniwa now and some of the teamliquid players and old Warcraft III folks.
But they have no face, I don't even see them play, I don't even see their emotions, I don't see anything. All I see is a game with 2 players controlling their units.
The TSL was epic because it was made epic with the hype surrounding the community, you also took a very skewed example of the TSL series and compare it with the 4-0 GSL stomp, Now compare it to Nestea and SCfou series.
In general koreans play at a higher level then the foreigners, and people simply want to watch the best.
Korea has the infrastructure of E-sports, they were also the first to start a large league, I mean its funny how you don't mention the Taiwanese Starleague for example, yet it is large and it is there.
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hmmmm kpop introductions isnt really in the favour of gsl =/
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I watch the GSL for great games of Starcraft, Korean or not, they've delivered since I started watching in season three.
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I'm new to SC2 and the e-sports scene in general. However, I found GSL season 1 at the very end and fell in love. The amazing games, the production, the casters, everything.
Yeah, it's not as fun to watch without many foreigners, but for me personally, I take mental notes of good/entertaining play. I remember those players, and they become just as fun to watch as a foreigner.
I mean with most foreigners, they practice with teammates or just ladder/stream all day. With Koreans, they're actually dedicated to practice. And it shows in most of their games. You have to appreciate that.
Edit: I'd like to add, it was either Tyler or Inc that said, Koreans don't have a natural talent for SC - they just practice harder. And it's true. And that practice will always lead to better games.
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I pretty much always watch Code S tastetosis do a great job comentating I only watch code A if are non Koreans in it
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On May 16 2011 18:01 Legatus Lanius wrote:
hmmmm kpop introductions isnt really in the favour of gsl =/
heresy! It's definitely a plus for me 
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For some reason the GSL doesn't manage to excite me as much as the European or North American leagues, the games all seem to be boring and i don't even care much about the players.
The skill of westerners might be lower, but they still manage to create extremely long and exciting games while most korean games i watched end before the 20 minute mark and mostly consist of 2-3 base play or 1-base all-ins.
Koreans might have perfect mechanics, but they really seem to lack the creativity common for many foreigners. They have no TLO, Spanishiwa, MorroW, CatZ, *trying to think of a creative protoss*, ...
Well, maybe i just haven't watched enough GSL matches.
Edit:
Also, this:
On May 16 2011 18:01 Legatus Lanius wrote:
hmmmm kpop introductions isnt really in the favour of gsl =/
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On May 16 2011 16:46 anatem wrote:
i don't care about watching weak games because x guy is nice and i can relate to his social background, this is sports, i want to see the best going at it if i'm gonna waste my time.
Weird how you make it sound that people don't follow and support players and teams for personal and social backgrounds (or at least nationality) in "sports", when that's actually really common (even standard) in popular conventional sports .
Every real football fan follows and supports their local club or a club they have some personal or emotional connection with and care about rather than watching only "the best", no matter how good or bad their club is. People will gladly watch the most dreadful, defensive, pure physical game and still be happy if their team wins in the end.
I'm not trying to say you're wrong because you only want to see the best, because as you said people watch what they like. I'm just trying to say that the concept (and philosophy if you will =p) of sports and competing in general doesn't only revolve around the best teams/players in the world.
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I think the top players from Korea and outside Korea are all very evenly matched. Some people say that foreigners don't do that great in the GSL, but it's really tough living abroad and also there are always way more Koreans than foreigners so it's pretty much a numbers game.
I watch GSL very occasionally, but the stream quality isn't great unless you want to pay for it (which I'm not sold on), and I can watch great tournament games almost everyday now with the NASL and other major events(not to mention Day9).
As long as NASL is going strong I think that many people will watch it instead of GSL. It's not about Koreans vs Foreigners, it's about the stream quality and convenience (broadcast time).
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I watch GSL for Tastosis, who are the perfect mix of irrelevant hilarity and brilliant analysis.
Also, the top Korean players are AMAZING most of the time, and the occasional long, close Korean game is usually quite entertaining, especially with Artosis screaming his lungs out.
Also, GSL being a live production is also very appealing. It's interesting to able to see player reactions in their booths and doing ceremonies during team matches. Such live LAN events aren't as frequent in the non-Korean scene, and the countless online tournaments just don't have the same feeling as a LAN event.
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On May 16 2011 16:26 SlipperySnake wrote:
I just feel like a lot of the media at least that I have been listening to has this bias that GSL is the best and so everyone watches it. This just isn't simply the case at least for me, personally I don't give a shit about the GSL. When it was the only league out there than I was interested but it is just full of players I could care less about because there is no personality and I don't watch their streams on a regular basis.
People keep saying theres no personality in the gsl and that they would rather watch NASL/IPL. I watched IPL and I didnt even see the winners face as he won and Idra declined a postgame interview so what is this personality you speak of? What about the awful TSL3 finals interviews with thorzain and naniwa how much personality did you see there? At least when you see someone get owned in the gsl (see nada vs inca) you can visibly see their face.
You should really make a better argument than GSL players have no personality. What you dislike is that they dont interact with the foreigner community and you dont feel a connection to them.
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Can't say I agree.
GSL has the best players, best casters, and best production.
That's enough to trump the fact that my favourite players aren't in it.
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LOL are you serious? for entertainment you rate the nasl more than gsl? wow lol. And did you bad mouth the GSL production value? And you say NASL is good? my goodness..
Sure the nasl is a great format and has great players, but as far as pulling it off, they're failing, hard.
The IPL is epic, as far as I'm concerned it will be the main north American league by the end of this year. GSL > DreamHack > IPL
Comparing the nasl to the gsl and then even trying to say that the nasl is better is just plain wrong.
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As kinda of a blanket response to the sentiments of a lot of the posters I just want to say I really like Tasteless and Artosis also but it just isn't enough for me personally. I think a lot of you identified that the admiration of Koreans might be left over from BW although they certainly are at the top level of competition so perhaps I just don't have that background.
Also I thought it was interesting to hear the opinion of a lot of people saying they really also do care about seeing 'foreigners' in the GSL. I think this plays into the idea that there is actually actual kind of a nationalistic and social bias when it comes to following players. Just like another poster mentioned with sports teams, it doesn't matter if you team is the best in the world but just that it is your team makes you want to follow them. That is almost exactly how I feel about North American SC2 pros.
I just don't feel that same connection to Korean pros which is probably mainly due to the language barrier. If I don't get any interaction outside their games, random facial expressions, and interviews lost in translation there isn't much for me to latch on to as a fan.
Anyways that is just my take, it is good to hear that there are other people out there with a similar view. Also thanks for posted even if you think my opinion is crazy =S.
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I think everyone is entitled to their opinion on what gives them the most entertainment. For me, it is watching the best players. Production is important, but it more of a secondary concern. I watch the GSL because it is the toughest competition.
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people don't watch gsl to watch koreans. they watch gsl to see the highest level of play. it so happens that the highest level players are koreans. my favorite players are those that play at the highest level. same with many many people.
i don't know you are a troll or something.
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To be honest, I think there is quite a bit of personality in the GSL, its just unfortunately hidden from the English-speaking audience as we are getting a secondhand translation.
Translating and interpreting is historically EXTREMELY poor at getting across inside jokes, cultural references, and subtle body language cues, and so while it may appear that in interviews the players tend to be very reserved, I think it is more the case that their personalities are not being communicated to us effectively.
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EPT
