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+ Show Spoiler +On May 10 2011 08:44 drooL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 08:12 SlipperySnake wrote:On May 10 2011 07:29 drooL wrote:just to get some facts straight: - HuKs visual quality since the switch to jtv has been great
- HuK frequently has a mic and talks to the chat a lot (if he's not in hardcore practice mode)
- Why should he not ask for donations? He specifies that all donations go into buying dinner for ogs-Liquid. Plus he doesn't beg for them or anything.
- In the end, streams are all about the level of play that you see from a FPV (or casted). That is what makes them good. qxc, Sheth, iNcontroL might be a bit more entertaining than people who don't talk to their audience but that doesn't take away from the skill they display.
So before you make any further complaints, get your OP right that is full of ridiculous insults to a professional SC2 player who makes the effort to stream his games instead of just practicing quitely. And actually put some effort into proving your point. If all these changes are accurate then I am glad. I mean I still have a problem with asking for donations, but that is more personal. I agree with you that everyone wants to see a high level of play but I don't agree that that is what make them good. A high level of play is just one of the factors that makes a stream good and I feel like taking only that into account in kind of myopic. It is fine if you say that is what you like and indeed that is what many others are looking for too but with all the pro streams out there I am personally more attracted to streams that provide more. Kudos to Huk for uping his quality but I still have a problem with him sticking with the bare minimum for so long. I know that streaming isn't easy but in my opinion if you are going to put your product out there you should make sure it is comparable to other products out there. It is fine if you say that this is what you like but that doesn't apply to everyone. Some people can simply appreciate the beauty of high level play. And some streamers deliver only that, as a favor to the community. Especially if they don't have the time/character for more than that. And some decide to offer insight, for example WhiteRa while others flourish in being themselves/a character on stream (Destiny, qxc, .....). Preference thing. Period. And you should still absolutely edit your OP. I find it incredibly insulting and it makes you look very uninformed and dumb 
First of all you seem to have one of what I find the mostly repulsive views of streaming. Basically you have this idea that the pros are doing some huge favor to the community by streaming. This is part of what I am hoping to combat. The pros aren't streaming for charity, they are making money off of it! I don't understand how you don't get this. I am not saying he is a greedy mother who is only doing it for the money but what I am saying is that this stary-eyed fan worship of players streaming needs to stop. We as viewers and fans should be thankful for streams but we shouldn't pretend that the player is doing it for us especially in this case.
I am sorry if you find my OP offensive but I read it over and changing it is doesn't make sense. I made it clear that it was based on my experience of Huk's stream. If you think it make me look dumb than that is your prerogative but simply saying that all some people care about and then pretending that makes my opinion invalid is wrong. I am fine with some people enjoying Huk's stream, and I even think he should be separated from non-pro players possibly but I don't think he should be put on the same level as dedicated productions who have proven it is for the fans.
I am not saying there needs to be only 1 best type of stream I am just saying that I think streams with high production, interaction, and commentary should be advertised on a different level. If Huk's quality has reached this level then by all means he should join the other streams but based on his streaming past I think it is relevant to use him as an example.
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I'd like streams sorted by a player's net worth; I personally believe that only rich people are worth watching and I'd like teamliquid.net's featured stream system to line up with my arbitrary preferences.
Thanks!
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On May 10 2011 09:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I'd like streams sorted by a player's net worth; I personally believe that only rich people are worth watching and I'd like teamliquid.net's featured stream system to line up with my arbitrary preferences.
Thanks!
I like the post, thanks. I don't think it is arbitrary but I guess if you think the featured stream system is already arbitrary then adding requirements like commentary, higher quality, and viewer interaction might seem similar.
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just to put it out there, I love HuK's stream. Most entertaining by far in my opinion.
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On May 10 2011 09:11 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 09:09 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
I'd like streams sorted by a player's net worth; I personally believe that only rich people are worth watching and I'd like teamliquid.net's featured stream system to line up with my arbitrary preferences.
Thanks! I like the post, thanks. I don't think it is arbitrary but I guess if you think the featured stream system is already arbitrary then adding requirements like commentary, higher quality, and viewer interaction might seem similar.
Adding tiers of featuredness is a degree of freedom more arbitrary than the current featured-or-not dichotomy. Ranking the tiers is especially bad imo, I'd mind less if there were just some icons for "commentator" or "viewer interaction" displayed next to the stream links, but separating the categories out and ranking them is a bit too much...
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On May 10 2011 09:16 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Adding tiers of featuredness is a degree of freedom more arbitrary than the current featured-or-not dichotomy. Ranking the tiers is especially bad imo, I'd mind less if there were just some icons for "commentator" or "viewer interaction" displayed next to the stream links, but separating the categories out and ranking them is a bit too much...
Damn that is a really good idea. I didn't think of that, that could make everything a lot easier. Obviously there would be some issues with streams that have commentary sometimes and all the logistics but barring all that. Sick idea!
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What OP fails to realize is that Huk has something to offer that the the likes of Day9(I enjoy watching Day9 sometimes) and others do not and that is high level play. He can get away with it unless other streamers get better, but until then, his product is more valuable than mere talk. He speaks louder with his actions and the viewer count doesn't lie. That's what more people want. Period.
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HuK was popular well before he started streaming OR joining Team Liquid. The fact that he has a lot of viewers has nothing to do with his stream quality (or possibly lack thereof), only the fact that he has always been an extremely popular (and yes, skilled) player. Also, everyone who plays for Team Liquid has consistently more viewers of their stream, probably in large part due to the fact that this is TL.net and those names are most recognizable by visitors to this site.
If "featured" streams are determined simply by 1) player popularity regardless of actual stream quality or content or 2) player skill level (i.e. Grandmasters or "Pro" players only), then the TL staff should just come out and say that. The guidelines for getting featured are shaky at best; do a search for "featured" and you'll find many different mods stating many different criteria for how to get featured. Someone who isn't popular (read: famous in sc2 community) or a GM essentially has no chance of being featured, regardless of stream quality, how insightful they are, or how much general effort they put into their stream.
Now that said, TL staff will break their own loose "guidelines" for featuring streams and feature people simply because they are unique; someone who is female, someone who is disabled, someone who is mid-level masters or someone who was popular 10 years ago. No offense to any of those people but please, let's not act like there's any sort of "fair" or "consistent" consideration happening.
To summarize, no matter how much effort you put into your stream, you'll probably never be considered to be featured unless you're already famous, a top 200 player (which is like .01% of players), or subject to some random criteria that you'll never guess. There really is nothing you can do to improve your chances.
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Hello! MikeD here. Obviously I'm going to have a biased opinion on this matter but I have to point back to the guy that talked about helping out unique streamers. It seems really odd that there is no set requirement or guidelines as to how one get's featured and lets face it there is money at stake. I put a great deal of time into my stream. I don't claim to be a pro or top level player but my play is sufficiently good enough and my style unique enough that people people seem to like to watch me play.
I disagree with the OP. Saying that pro players that do not offer "extras" should not be featured seems silly. Clearly they have something to offer in their streaming with or without commentary based off their numbers alone. Most of the featured streamers are either well known enough in the community one way or another to get a large amount of viewers with or without featured status. Thus, they should be featured. Clearly being on a pro team, or starting out with a huge following is a pretty standard way to get featured and this I am totally fine with.
So my question comes to, what does it take to get featured for the rest of the streamers who do not fit the things mentioned above? Some examples would be streamers like Orb, VTMrBitter, Magumiexbear, and until recently ROOTDestiny. From my understanding all of these streamers who, when featured, were not on any sort of pro-team or had accomplished some great amount of popularity and were given the opportunity to be featured. This sent their personal starcraft careers in a very nice direction very quickly. Each of these players has things to offer that are not purely game quality. For the record I regularly match Orb and MrBitter on ladder and we have all taken games off each other. I believe Magumiebear is slightly lower MMR than myself but I could be wrong and we just have not matched.
I started streaming on a whim one day and quickly fell in love with the user interaction during my mass ladder sessions. Soon I was being requested to do coaching, and I started streaming that as well. Not long after that as my stream gained popularity I was offered a gig casting with Spazzcraft and more recently the ASC weekly. Some of my viewers got involved in helping me with overlays, graphics etc and we developed into what is now a daily streaming scheduled where I offer coaching, play with commentary, make tutorial VODs and have consistent community of viewers. Rarely is there a day that my non featured stream does not reach over 100 viewers. Apparently my regular viewers feel like I have something to offer. Justin.tv recently took notice of my regular numbers and offered me a partnership. Many many great things have come from my streaming and I wouldn't change any of it at any time. Myself and a few others put a LOT of time into my stream. Mon-fri about 8 hours of streaming each day. Clearly I have openly asked my dedicated viewers to support me in my stream thread because I would like to take this as far as I can go. Do I think posts in a stream thread are what is going to get me featured? No. Do I think it might pull a little bit of attention my way? Maybe. It's a dream of mine to be featured on TL so that I can see how the community as a whole might take to my style of streaming and playing.
So... I know that was a lot of words but this is a blog post after all, and if you ask my students you'll know I'm never short-winded when it comes to Starcraft.
TLDR: I put a LOT of time into my stream so I wonder what does it take to get featured if you are not a pro-player?
For more information about my stream, coaching, or casting check out MikeDsc.net
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Agree with MikeD, even though my comments were less of a plug than his 
There needs to be VERY explicit guidelines on what you're looking for (if there are any) so us lowly non-featured streamers aren't chasing some pipe dream in terms of becoming featured.
Similarly, splitting featured streams into two sections like "Grandmasters" or "Pro" and "Other top streams" or something could really help differentiate and provide a more realistic goal for people who aren't top 200 but still have great streams for a number of other reasons.
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So we can all agree that Pro Players will get the most viewers obviously because they are known. So yes they should be featured.
I have a suggestion though have a list that says Pro Players-
then have another one that shows Featured Highly rated By team liquid staff based on "said" qualities
like Content, Gameplay , viewer interaction, things like that. like me I will Occassionally click on one of the pros when i see them because im interested in their play. But my favorite streams by far are Minigunn,White-Ra, and MikeD. because they do have a lot of user interaction commentary and insight on why they are playing a match in this particular way and the thought process. These streams have a lot to offer and help progress the game in a unique way not just because they are great players. But they have something they want to give to the community.
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I think there has been a lot of agreement in general on how things could be adjusted to make the stream page better. The basic idea so far is to make another category for pro players so streams that aren't pro can make it up on their merits alone. The problem with this though is that it adds even more criteria for new streamers to already be behind on. I mean the good thing about have two categories is that there isn't complete separation between established and new streams. At least I think it is something to think about when it comes to possible changing how streams are listed.
I think a lot of the anxiety comes from the loose rules associated with becoming featured and the idea that the stream page is a resource rather than a biased page TL moderators favorite streams. I am not saying either of these things is bad it just seems like they have room for error. I guess the position of TL would be that it is working for the public as a whole so if it isn't broken why fix it. If the set rules then there would probably be a shitstorm of unfairness whining so at least they are on the record for saying it isn't supposed to be fair I guess. This kind of bleeds into their idea of the stream page as a resource. When I think of resources I think of them as unbaised but this just might not be TL's take on the situation. In the end I guess they will just do whatever works for them and they have always erred on the side of moderator control but maybe if there could be more user interaction the stream page could really be a resource like liquipedia.
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I 100% agree with what Hot_Bid said. Don't feel like spamming this post anymore by quoting.
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EPT
